nicksiders
2773 posts
May 12, 2008
8:36 PM
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I know a breeder who breeds 100 birds each year to get 20 keepers. He now has 4 kits of 20 birds each (80 birds) and bred 400 to get them.
I think the questions you have to ask is; do you want pets or do you want to compete? You need to make your desicions based upon on those questions. He basically told me I was making pets out of them(LOL).
Nick Siders
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sippi
234 posts
May 12, 2008
8:56 PM
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Nick some of mine are always on the bubble. I only have room for 242 in the kit boxes so every time one goes in one has to come out. I dont ever quit trying to breed better than what I have. Of course I dont have all the kit boxes full yet.
Sippi
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millsy55
58 posts
May 13, 2008
1:53 AM
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all i can say the law of averages is if you breed 100 you will get more keepers than if you breed 50 but wot r keepers in my young i breed 60 a year if i get 2 that i think will make it into my old bird kit first and then my stock then that is a good return. to me everything is about quality i do give my young time to prove themselves ie as yearlings so i would say only keep potential stock only way to keep improving
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Alohabirds
157 posts
May 13, 2008
2:10 AM
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Yes Nick, if your standards are low enough you can get away with only breeding 20 birds and get 20 keepers.
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pat66
146 posts
May 13, 2008
3:11 AM
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How long in your opinion should you fly the young to tell if you have keepers? 1 year which breaks down to 6 months with lockdown time-2 years which breaks down to 1 year with a 6 month break,or so on?
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Pat
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Windjammer Loft
314 posts
May 13, 2008
5:04 AM
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NICK...I think, as a breeder it is our RESPONSIBILITY to have the QUALITY and not QUANTY. Unless you don't mind being a bird KEEPER.....If the shoe fits, wear it. And possible these types of people do MORE damage to our birds and to the HOBBY then they realize. Just my opinion
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on May 13, 2008 5:10 AM
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turkey buzzard
33 posts
May 13, 2008
6:19 AM
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Maybe just maybe with food prices getting higher and higher he was thinking of feeding his family the culls. Know one knows the true scenario in this situation. He may have a BOP problem. (Two years ago I lost 74 birds). He may sell a bunch. It's an endless mind altering question and people have to sit there and go HMMMMMMM.
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sippi
236 posts
May 13, 2008
7:24 AM
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I fly young birds out a year to see what they are. I dont have a real BOP problem except migration. I have only lost one BR in the last two years and that was a month ago to a wayward falcon. I only have to lock down about two weeks each season with the BR's but keep flying my OR's right on. As long as a bird is kitting and doing what it should it stays in the kit(s) until then. Problem children go the the meat market.
sippi
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kopetsa
668 posts
May 13, 2008
7:40 AM
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I want both!
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Andrew
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gotspin7
1319 posts
May 13, 2008
11:21 AM
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Nick, I would say start making them! LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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JMUrbon
446 posts
May 13, 2008
11:37 AM
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We can throw out any opinion we want on this subject and the fact will still remain that he who feed them makes his own decisions as to who stays and who goes. I believe that unless you have the time to agressivly fly each bird out and I mean daily then you need to keep you program small enough to handle. You have no idea how good a pair is if you only get 3-4 young per year out of them only to loose 2-3 of them to preditors and overflies. If a guy raises say 10-12 young a year per pair then you stand a much better chance of improving your stock year to year. Basically the law of averages will overcome the sheer numbers.250 young dont mean anything to me when you breed from 25 pair to get them. You breed 80 birds from 7-8 pair and that in my books will be the more sucessful breeder in the long run. And when I say 7-8 pair I mean STOCK QUALITY pairs. Not just putting birds together for the meer purpose of getting babies but birds that have in fact proven themselves in the air more than one season and truely represent everything that you are looking for in a Birmingham Roller. Just food for thought. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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gotspin7
1324 posts
May 13, 2008
11:40 AM
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Good post Joe! I will have to say I agree!
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Sal Ortiz
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Square
272 posts
May 13, 2008
5:32 PM
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Ok here goes, over the past few years let's say 10, I have been moving all over because of my cerrer. And because of that I would only breed 70birds or so. I would stock maby 3 and this went on for years I would give my kit birds away to people that wanted them then I would move. Sometimes I would leave my rollers in the care of other people, from Compton to vegas to Northern cal, never keeping over 10 pair, and never having a single holdover bird. This was hard because I would never have a holdover kit at many of my new locations. But now thats a diffrent story as Im not movin!!LOL I have really seen a dramatic improvement in my flock,, it really payed off as all my birds are related look the same act the same and handle the same. I look at all my mentors in the past and now I see what they had as far as developing a fambam of rollers. Now that I have more space and a bigger loft I probally won't change much, accept for the fact I will have hold over kit bird's. My loft for those who havent seen it is 8/12 and broke into three sections for my breeding and I fly three kits from the inside two with standard perches and one english style (standing room only) When all is right my goal is to funnel everything into a 11 bird team, so the hope is to have the best outta the best in a small group.. Great topic Bro's!!!
Square
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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sippi
239 posts
May 13, 2008
6:23 PM
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I only breed out of four pair. I dont hardly ever loose one in the air. I loose some to snakes and BOP raids on the single mating pens. I average raising about fourty birds. I will keep adding birds to the kits until I have a kit of brothers and sisters flying. So far I have ten siblings flying. At least I will have enough for an eleven bird team. Hope to have four twenty bird teams by next year.
sippi
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Ballrollers
1231 posts
May 13, 2008
6:36 PM
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Nick
Those percentages are about the same as what I have seen in my family. I "heard" from a knowledgeable roller flyer that the "national average" is for every 10 birds raised, ONE may meet the performance standard of the True Birmingham Roller. That means for every 100 that meet the performance standard.... less than 5 will produce better than itself in the stock loft. Some will say one or two. Click pairs that are prepotent and produce 50% keepers are exceedingly rare. But then you must also look at the flyer's standards to gauge if they are really keepers.
The lower your standards the higher your averages. That said, I look for 20%-40% or higher, keepers out of each pair of breeders or I keep looking.
Cliff
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sippi
242 posts
May 13, 2008
7:17 PM
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I would love to breed out of ten or fifteen pair but have yet to have that many meet the standard or get old enough to meet it yet. If you had more quantity of quality breeders you should not have to breed as many flyers. Chicken and egg thing.
Sippi
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kcfirl
461 posts
Aug 02, 2008
4:44 PM
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All the guys I saw in England bred 30 - 50 birds a year, save George MAson who had 4 kits of young birds due to losing a couple of kits last year. and from what I saw, they get > 50% good, solid kit birds out of them.
We are not breeding tight enough in my opinion, too many projects, and just plain messing around to get to where the birds are throwing good %. All the guys I talked to started with 3 or 4 birds as the base of their family. Most guys I see here have at least 3 different strains and 10+ pairs all with different lines.
That is why most guys have a misconaception they need to breed 100 + birds a year here in the USA.
Regards,
Ken
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Scott
1031 posts
Aug 02, 2008
5:19 PM
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Ken,I used to breed the same way , then I got smart and figured out that I was breeding far to many culls and hawks,go figure.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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sippi
447 posts
Aug 03, 2008
9:58 AM
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I see a lot of guys on here chasing the rainbow. They grab a good bird out of many families and throw them together and in reality most times are backing up due to mixing genes, traits, characteristics of different families. They have good stock to start but all families dont mesh. I started my family(not mine yet) with three birds and hope to be breeding ten pair in the near future. Only then will I know what I have as a family goes.
sippi
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TimP
21 posts
Aug 04, 2008
7:27 AM
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I'm with Ken and Scott on this one! By the way sippi where do you live? I'll have to retire their someday if thats ur situation with the BOP.
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rollernewbie
36 posts
Aug 04, 2008
3:07 PM
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that alot of birds...hope i had that much...:D hook it up...lol.jk...
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-Billy
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Newbie 08
4 posts
Aug 04, 2008
4:41 PM
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Not too familar with the lingo. Kit when you say kit these are birds that fly together. Do you keep these birds in a cage together at all time seperate from birds that you are not flying in that kit? Or do you just let them out together?
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J_Star
1707 posts
Aug 05, 2008
6:11 AM
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Nick, I kind of agree with your friend. In the past several years I was breeding a maximum of 30 birds out of 8 pairs due to the short breeding season here in the North Eastern part of Ohio. Some seasons, the breeding is not so great where only one egg hatches and when the dog days of summer hit, the birds don’t want to sit on their eggs. I end up breeding late and the late hatches don’t have a chance to fly and start their development process and end up not doing so good the following year. However, only a few make it for their performance and the rest either removed, hawked or lost.
This year, I took on “Blitz Breeding” methodology and took the best that I’ve mustered in the last several years in my kit and stocked them along with the 8 pairs that I breed from. This time I am breeding from 17 pairs. However, I sacrificed my A team to the breeding loft and I flew the garbage that I have left until I was able to start flying the young. So far, I bred around 80 birds from the end of April until August. Some of the breeders were their first time breeding and took them longer to get the hang of it and I had several one egg hatches. I am a strong believer of the 80/20 rule. I have a homogeneous inbred family of birds which make selecting, matching and breeding them easier.
I do believe in breeding large numbers at the beginning to get an excellent kit or two right up front. Then you start breeding to replace with better offspring. In the past I didn’t have lots of good birds to chose from and start that kind of breeding method and it took me a while to develop a good kit of birds. Breeding many birds will take allot of time training them. For that reason, I fly 30 to 40 young at a time and sometimes more. It teaches them to stick together and perform together. It is very difficult to have that many birds kit like glue together. It is even more difficult to get them to get to a good altitude which will teach them at a young age to stick around and not to skyout at a young age. But once you get them going things become easy. In the past I used to worry what the neighbors would think or say if I fly that many birds together. This year, I did not give a rat’s ass what they say or think.
Next year, I am going to do the same thing and breed close to 100 if I can from the same 17 pairs until my young will have two seasons under their wings. Whatever doesn’t cut it, I will dress it, stuff it, butter it and stack it on the rotisserie. This way I can judge my stock loft of who is really worth keeping as a stock bird and allows me to upgrade the kit to have birds of excellent caliber from year to year, if possible. I am breeding out of the best that I have and expect the majority of young to be of good quality at least like their parents and some exceptional performers. They are starting to show their caliber. Some are early developers and that is what I harness the most if they have the full package. I can replace the one or two that twitch or twizzle at the end of the roll or the bird that chooses every once in a while to fly above the kit or leave occasionally for short time or the one that like to trail the kit or the one that comes out of the roll away from the kit. Those refinements are necessary to advance your kit. That is my take but do you see the logic behind it!
Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2008 10:11 AM
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George R.
1310 posts
Jan 22, 2009
8:19 PM
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Thats a lot of Birds
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scrimpscrampi
48 posts
Jan 22, 2009
10:21 PM
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I know that if I bred that many the city and neighbors would be on my tail...well, not so much the neighbors with their ten dogs and twenty cats...but the city for sure...lol!
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scrimpscrampi
Tulsa, OK
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J_Star
1844 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:37 AM
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I am glad you brought this post up again. Since then, things have changed. I bought a new house that is situated on 9 ½ acres of land in the middle of the city. And since the property is more than 5 acres; I am allowed to have live stock like horses, cattle or poultry. Can you imagine that …farm like living in the middle of the city. I don’t have neighbors in close proximity like I used in the old house. Now I can breed as many as I want and fly as many as I want without giving a hoot what the city or the neighbors say (lol). Even if I want to fish for large mouth bass or blue gills, I fish on my own pond in the backyard.
However, the strategy is still the same for the next year or two in regards to breeding and flying but now I am joining the ranks of competition hopefully.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 5:50 AM
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brudahpete
407 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:39 AM
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First of all, your loft would have to be huge to hold that many birds and you would be months weeding through all of them to see if you wanted to keep a specific one. Then, the ones that don't make the grade you would have the problem of, Ok, I have 320 unwanted birds, hmmm, where do you put them? Do you open up a pigeon soup shop? Do you just release them on the sly? Tell me, where would you put them? Even in the country, that's a ton of birds an extremely unrealistic.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful here but I wouldn't have a clue when to comes to having so many unwanted "culls" that the hobby becomes a burden just because I had so much garbage for so little good. I think that breeding 400 birds per year is foolish simply because of the logistics. I a person really studied his birds & bred best to best after finding the breeding pairs over four or five years of being patient, he would have a lot greater success rate than just breeding the hell out of anything to get a bunch of nothing. JMHO.
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http://www.freewebs.com/brudahpete/
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 5:47 AM
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J_Star
1845 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:46 AM
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Well I have a poll barn that is 40x64 feet long. In one corner, I built a loft that is 8x16 feet. There is plenty of room…believe me. Being with rollers for a while, weeding them is not an issue. The more the culls the better the party to serve roasted pigeons with some cold beer. It will be a great cook out…and I have many friends who will help me cleaning them. But I am not anticipating a large number of culls and I am not breeding more than I can not handle and I don’t breed to sell.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:16 AM
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Scott
1500 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:53 AM
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The problem of breeding too many is that you will breed far too many culls also due to the type of birds that you have to use to produce the numbers,in turn the culls will hold back and screw up many of the potential good one's.
Plus I don't care how much free time one has,once the short days of Winter coupled with weather birds tat need to get flown are going to get cheated do to the sheer numbers.
Then add in the amount of time(work) to properly care for a couple hundred kit pigeons and the pairs it takes to produce them and you are taking away valuable time watching and evalating your birds,been there and done all of this.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:01 AM
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brudahpete
408 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:05 AM
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J Star, you go guy! I have to 6X12 lofts & have 4 kit boxes, maybe room for the 400 or so but, sometimes I think that I get too carried away with the numbers. My two boys are rolling now too so flying that many isn't a problem. Out of 100 bird, I'll lose around 12-15 in a year's time for whatever reason so I breed only my absolute best birds to replace that many. I separate the flyers into A team, B team, C team, etc. I am always surprised that I find myself moving a C team member up to the A team. I don't compete because my area lacks the needed people in he hobby but I think that my birds are reasonably capable to compete. My boys are taking over 1 entire loft with our current family & running the whole show while I do my thing in the other. They will probably have 120-140 birds total by the end of the summer. Then again the may not breed this year. It's up to them. I have to agree with Scott, sir, you hit the nail squarely on the head!
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http://www.freewebs.com/brudahpete/
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:06 AM
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J_Star
1847 posts
Jan 23, 2009
6:06 AM
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That is true Scott and I agree with that. The key point here is “I don’t breed more than I can not handle”. I truly believe in the 80/20 rule and at the end of the summer, the cook out begins to clean house. I don't breed a bird that is not two seasons old no matter what is the reason. I used all my best A team birds to breed regardless of color as long as they meet certain criteria since they are all a homogeneous family.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 6:14 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
154 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:54 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
The problem of breeding too many is that you will breed far too many culls also due to the type of birds that you have to use to produce the numbers,in turn the culls will hold back and screw up many of the potential good one's.
Plus I don't care how much free time one has,once the short days of Winter coupled with weather birds tat need to get flown are going to get cheated do to the sheer numbers.
Then add in the amount of time(work) to properly care for a couple hundred kit pigeons and the pairs it takes to produce them and you are taking away valuable time watching and evalating your birds,been there and done all of this.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Scott, just pondering this equation of yours...You have agreed over and over that the percentage of good birds is low in any loft....This being stated 100 pairs should produce 10-20 decent offspring? 6-7 pairs should get you 1-3 decent offspring? These questions being asked, you should have the same percentage of culls (or in my situation mutts) no matter how many you breed from? As far as taking care of a couple hundred birds goes, the biggest job is getting bundled up and out there. I have no problem with it. I do have employees that are not good managers of thier time, so maybe this could play into your experiences with larger numbers? We have a course here at the lab that is done online, I would send you the info., if you would like? I really gotta wonder Scott you talk lock down, flying out birds for three years, etc.....Where do you come up with your 20 good comp. birds? I would also really like to see some pics. of your birds so I have an idea of what the ideal roller really looks like..I know this has been asked of you before by myself and others...I dont mean to be disrespectfull Scott, but I am really trying to figure you out. You have made master flyer, so show us some pics. of the birds that put you there..
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
155 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:02 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott wrote:
The problem of breeding too many is that you will breed far too many culls also due to the type of birds that you have to use to produce the numbers,in turn the culls will hold back and screw up many of the potential good one's.
Scott, I have 5 families here right now from 5 breeders. Now these birds are the type it takes to produce quality. I am pretty sure these fellows would take issue with your statements. I know of one who already has... Now on the other hand, when I get to the task of trying to make a super family..Who knows whats going to happen????
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pigeon pete
71 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:26 AM
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My first question to the statement:-I think the questions you have to ask is; do you want pets or do you want to compete? You need to make your desicions based upon on those questions. He basically told me I was making pets out of them(LOL).
Is he competitive?
Guys go and read Joe Urbons reply he said what I was going to say.
If you breed 3 rounds from 5 top stock pairs and get 33% good rollers you can get 10 good rollers but it doesn't follow that you will get 50 good rollers if you pair up 25 pair unless you have good strength in depth, i.e all pairs produce the same percentages on average. It is just as likely that as you breed from more pairs that your pecentages will diminish.
Better to follow joes advice and breed more from your best birds. Pete
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J_Star
1851 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:48 AM
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Yes, he is very much competitive. I know the person (father/son) Nick is talking about. He placed 4th in the Fall fly this year. He has some real awesome birds.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 8:50 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
156 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:54 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Pete,
I think the reason you are seeing some of us breeding these large numbers right now is to find the best possible birds out of a larger pool. In my situation the birds are all coming out of 5 different families from 5 lofts. The goal is quality not the current quantity. These 5 families are not squeakers, they are breeders and flown out birds. My goal is to get the best possible birds I can from these families, and if possible improve on all of them with interbreeding and the formation of a new family from within..To do this will take alot of self discipline on my part. Culling will be very heavy..
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Scott
1503 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:56 AM
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(Scott, just pondering this equation of yours...You have agreed over and over that the percentage of good birds is low in any loft....This being stated 100 pairs should produce 10-20 decent offspring? 6-7 pairs should get you 1-3 decent offspring? These questions being asked, you should have the same percentage of culls (or in my situation mutts) no matter how many you breed from?)
Mike,no one has first class stock in great numbers,no one, breeding numbers is easy as putting a cock with a hen,breeding true quality is much more difficult and breeding numbers is counter productive,and each of our standards differ on what quality is.
(As far as taking care of a couple hundred birds goes, the biggest job is getting bundled up and out there. I have no problem with it. I do have employees that are not good managers of thier time, so maybe this could play into your experiences with larger numbers?
We have a course here at the lab that is done online, I would send you the info., if you would like?)
And I also had employees the same, owning a production orientated construction Company though I would send them down the road.
I had no problem running over a dozen fast paced subdivisions and countless employees and trim crews for a over couple of decades,along with throwing up spec homes, so I doubt that managing my time is a problem.I made alot of money over the years doing just that,thanks for the offer on the coarse though.
(I really gotta wonder Scott you talk lock down)
I lock down when need be for short periods of time
(flying out birds for three years, etc.....Where do you come up with your 20 good comp. birds? )
Myself,I like to try birds showing heavy potential for a few rounds and then put back into the kitbox to polish off.
Usually I have not only parents but also some of thier offspring in the A team.
When I move a bird into stock it is allready prooven as such,my A team consists of birds from two to six years old at the moment.
(I would also really like to see some pics. of your birds so I have an idea of what the ideal roller really looks like..I know this has been asked of you before by myself and others...I dont mean to be disrespectfull Scott, but I am really trying to figure you out. You have made master flyer, so show us some pics. of the birds that put you there.)
Not a problem Mike, I will get some out this weekend
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2009 9:01 AM
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
157 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:06 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Thanks for the respectfull reply to my very blunt questions it is appreciated.
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
158 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:25 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Just a side note to my observances between these 5 families right now..I have two families that are quite colorful, one is black, lavender and some red. two are bluebar,dark check,black, kite and andulusion.. There are vey few differences in type except for size, they are all very tight feathered and look like someone painted the color on them. I am seeing some good action out of them, but they are still getting accustomed to myself and thier new surroundings..
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Scott
1504 posts
Jan 23, 2009
9:27 AM
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No problem Mike, from the Marine Corp I went into construction,from there to owning and opperating Construction companies,blunt and to the point questions don't bother me in the least.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
328 posts
Jan 23, 2009
7:15 PM
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That is a lot of birds for a few good ones. I guess it will take 5 years for me to get 80 good birds. that means I can have a good kit in about 2 more years. I look forward to that. I hope I have the patience.
lol
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RT Williams
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nicksiders
3222 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:07 PM
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It took Aubrey Thibodeaux four years to build four kits that was suitable to him. He breeds about 100 birds per year. That is 400 birds to get 80 good birds that would pass his standards. It could be that he is culling or giving away birds that others may think are more than suitable for thier kit boxes.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
3223 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:09 PM
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I guess you got to ask if you are breeding for good ones or excellent ones. You also got to ask if you are breeding pets or to compete.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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