Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2510 posts
May 16, 2008
4:43 AM
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IS THE “ROLLER PIGEON” A BREED?
Or just a mongrel of the cross-breedings of the Dutch Tumbler, OR, Flying Tippler and now West of England Tumblers?
I think now the debate has evolved from “is the Birmingham Roller a breed or not” to "IS THE ROLLER A BREED"?
How you answer: "yes" or "no" is going to determine your view of the roller and the fancy, are you maintaining the integrity of the Roller breed and promoting it, or simply going to create chaos by claiming now, “roller”, is merely a term to describe performance and the “True Birmingham Roller” the ultimate performance?
As Cliff said, “can’t have your cake and eat it too”. So which will it be?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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Ballrollers
1242 posts
May 16, 2008
6:50 AM
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Wendall Levi (The Pigeon, 1941) indicated "at the Lancaster PA show (1881) Birmingham Rollers were exhibited under the name J.E. Schum, H. Hirsch, and C.Lippold." Levi states further that an advertisement in the "Homing Pigeon", May 12, 1881 by James Grist and Sons states:
IMPORTED BIRMINGHAM ROLLER PIGEONS
"The most interesting little flying pigeons living. Can be flown twice a day and remain up for hours, during which they pass through the most wonderful and marvelowus aerial gymnastics at an immense altitude."
Levi also noted, "The Birmingham Roller was brought to this continent at about the same time as it became known as such in England, introduced first into Canada and from Canada into the United States."
Cliff
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Scott
558 posts
May 16, 2008
6:53 AM
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This is a silly debate Tony, it was a breed long before us , and will be long after us.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2519 posts
May 16, 2008
6:54 AM
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Hey Cliff, was that a "yes" or "no"?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2521 posts
May 16, 2008
7:05 AM
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Hey Scott, I know it may seem silly to you, because what I am asking seems like the obvious to some. But there is a reason I ask it.
I am waiting for simple "yes" or "no" answers. No caveats.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Santandercol
2517 posts
May 16, 2008
7:13 AM
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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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sippi
249 posts
May 16, 2008
7:18 AM
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Tony the Birmingham roller and the West of England were the same breed at one point both develop at the same time in the same area. I have a long article on that somewhere.
At there development stage the high flyers culled rollers and traded them to the roller guys and vice versa until they became a seperate line. That is why the muffs show up in Birms.
YES
sippi
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Ballrollers
1243 posts
May 16, 2008
7:22 AM
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In 1901, in "The Highflyer's Guide", by George Smith, he refers to "The Whittingham Birmingham Rollers", differentiating them from Flying Tumblers in type and performance. He characterizes that their kit performance (the BR) consists of long, high flyers, Long and Short Rollers, Mad Tumblers, Spinners, and Twizzlers....so definitiely a breed at that time...but not the breed as we know it today.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 9:21 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1224 posts
May 16, 2008
7:23 AM
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Tony.Finally got caught up with you.LOL.
My answer is YES. David
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Windjammer Loft
318 posts
May 16, 2008
7:24 AM
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BREED:
To develop new or improved strains in (organisms), chiefly through controlled mating and selection of offspring for desirable traits
A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation
a group of animals or plants presumably related by descent from common ancestors and visibly similar in most characters
SPECIES:
the species, the human race; mankind:
major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.
As we can all read, These are parts of the definations for the two most important words,BREED and SPECIES. If we go back in time, we can see that all dogs were NOT PURE. Others were introduced into them.
As a Dog Trainer and Behaviorist for 30+ years. I deal with this topic on a daily basis. In animal behavior and physicology, it is AYWAYS: ANIMAL...SPECIES....BREED...
NAME.
So getting back to Tony's question: "IS THE “ROLLER PIGEON” A BREED?" I think now the debate has evolved from “is the Birmingham Roller a breed or not” to "IS THE ROLLER A BREED"?
The Birmingham Roller is a SPECIFIC breed (SPECIES), and the Roller is a BREED within that SPECIFIC BREED. So, I would say the BIRMINGHAM ROLLER came first, then the ROLLERS were then introduced.
YES
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 7:32 AM
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nicksiders
2792 posts
May 16, 2008
7:27 AM
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It meets all of the requirement of a specific breed.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1225 posts
May 16, 2008
7:34 AM
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Paul. The Oriental Roller was here long before the Birmingham Roller was created and was why Pensom thought it was insturmental in creating the Birmingham Roller. David
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Ballrollers
1244 posts
May 16, 2008
9:27 AM
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Paul,
In letters written to each other and other communications, it appears that they referred to "High Flying Rollers", and "kits of rollers" the most. Apparrently the men in and around Birmingham and the Black Country began to develope them along a different type of performance and these became the Birmingham Roller. So it appears that "the roller" came first, then the Birmingham Roller evolved as a specific type of roller.
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1246 posts
May 16, 2008
10:19 AM
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Then in the yearbook of the United Roller Cub of America in 1937, the president, Homer Robinson, describes, "... Brent, an English writer upon the pigeon brought twenty Dutch rollers from Holland and gave them to the fanciers around Birmingham to cross upon their strains to improve their tumbling. This is why the Birmingham Roller, to this day, may be found both clean-legged and with grouse legs....Crossing in a long-bodied, long-headed and dove house-headed bird, while it improved their rolling properties, changed the character and type of the Birminghams....whims of the fanciers has dictated what has been bred for...some wished their birds to fly long and high with fair performance while others wanted them to be in action every moment whole on the wing....There has, since, come into being, an unrecognized standard for both performance and the show room. Many standards have been promulgated from time to time, but none of the larger clubs here and abroad have yet adopted one..."
This sort of says it all...Yes it is a breed, a mongrelization of many breeds, and the process has continued ever since....thus the diverse genetic background.
Cliff
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Scott
560 posts
May 16, 2008
10:32 AM
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Cliff , where do you come up with this stuff ? anything to mongrelize the breed eh
The decendants of many birds in this country trace back to birds before the 30s, plus does that even make any sence that all of the sudden everybody started breeding in "Dutch Tumblers" in the 30s to the Birmingham ? DUH
As much sence as that doesn't make what would have been the purpose ? both performance breeds,some looking for better PERFORMANCE
Now lets look at color birds , performance breed to show breed hmmm who is trying to accomplish what ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 10:42 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1228 posts
May 16, 2008
11:04 AM
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Scott.This was a writing that was brought forth from the History of the Birmingham Rollers.This didn't happen in the 1930's.Just an exert from another writing.David
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Scott
561 posts
May 16, 2008
11:24 AM
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Then what are we talking about Dave ? LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollerman132
282 posts
May 16, 2008
11:45 AM
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I would say YES, the Doberman Pincher was created from a cross between a Rottweiler and a Greyhound, and is an established breed, why wouldn’t the Birmingham Roller be one?
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fhtfire
1350 posts
May 16, 2008
12:18 PM
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Cliff,
The term roller came first...What does that mean....?????That has no bearing on what they called them now....They used to call a white chicken a white chicken and they called a red chicken a red chicken...lol...now a red laying chicken is a R-island red....or how about a grey and white chicken...that is now a plymouth rock....lol...the fact is the birmingham roller is a breed of pigeon...is it an official breed that went through a bunch of hoops to be called a breed like other animals...most likely not..but it is still a breed....now just because writings called them kits....or high flying...well...I call my birds kits.....I have heard the term.."you have a nice kit of rollers"...does that mean all of a sudden they are not a birmingham roller.....I even have high flying rollers at times if I overfeed....lol.....What about fireball rollers...are they brimingham...or a branch off of the birmingham roller.....because there can be some slight differnences within a breed.....A lab is a lab....but some labs look different..and English Lab....has a big BLOCK HEAD...where some other labs have the pointy noses and not as blocky..but they are still both labs....did they breed another breed to get that look..not they did not...certain breeders liked a certain look and bred to that side using full blood...and they still meet the standard. Now I look at a Fireball roller or a Withingham as the same thing....some guy took some birminghams and bred them for total deep rollers....and came up with the name....it is not different the Ruby Rollers....Tony came up with a name.....he bred to a standard that he liked in his birds and it still meets the overall standard..the breed is pure....so someone could call them Ruby rollers just like fireballs...but they are still a birmingham.....
I am confused about what you quote....because some guy called it a kit of rollers...that they are not birminghams.....or he said she said back in the black country that they wanted other types of rollers that don't tumble ect....that has no bearing on what the truth is.....and no bearing on if the birds I own are called birmingham roller or if colored crossed bred birds are no longer birminghams....
There are no real records because of the time and being a poor mans sport in the day...like I said before...lots of the "blue collar" guys from Birmingham...most likely were not educated enough to keep records...or did not have the time...or really cared.
Now...of course our birds are different then the old days....one we have the internet and airplanes and shipping in 2 days...so yes birds will get better.....and get worse.....and we most likely cull a lot harder then the old days...why...I can get more birds in 2 days...feed is not hard to come by......more education......more internet....and well....that is a no brainer.....and yes some birds will look different then back in the day...hell ...Scotts birds look totally different then mine.....
anyway....jumped all over..but do I consider it a breed...yes...has it been made a breed by an official governing body with stud paperwork...and breeding documentation and all the other hoops you have to jump through...well...no..I do not think it is an official breed.....but in face...yes it is a breed...they would not do what they do if they were not..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
666 posts
May 16, 2008
12:30 PM
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Let me see, can I phrase this just right. Most assuredly, positively,certainly,unequivocally,with out doubt, YES!!!
As, I am old, cantankerous, slightly mule headed, (according to my wife) and bald. The Birmingham Roller, is a breed unto itself. Meaning, unlike any other! Clear?
JMO, Thom
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Ballrollers
1247 posts
May 16, 2008
12:48 PM
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Paul, Scott,
I am, merely, using historical references to document that at first the breed was formed from crossing tumbler breeds and were referred to as rollers; then at some point between 1875 and 1900, they became known as Birmingham Rollers. And after that so called "pure breed' was named, additional breed out-crossing occurred to enhance performance, by the men in the Black Country around Birmingham. Then Tippler Grizzle was crossed in...then Indigo...then reduced mutated out...then opal was added...then pencil then toy stencil...and so on....as roller men in England and the US wanted to see different colors of these True Birmingham Rollers that performed to a certain performance standard upheld through it all. There is no point in time when they has ever been a "pure" breed. It has been crossed and re-crossed over the past century for a variety of reasons. No one has the privelige of drawing a line in the sand at any point in time and saying, "they are now pure." It's just not based on historical fact. Between the breed outcrosses, there are periods of time of a few decades when the breed outcrossing was minimal, although crossed between strains and families was rampant. I suppose a few of the roller men of those few decades, in between, could have been jumping up and down proclaiming they had the "pure" strain, as well.
This is not ME mongrelizing the breed, Scott. I'm just pointing out historical facts...painful as it may be to you, my friend. I wasn't around at the time all this breed outcrossing was going on. It sounds like you are approving of breed outcrossing for the sake of performance, but not for color. A mongrel is a mongrel, regardless of the reason for bringing in the breed outcross isn't it? Don't just attack the messenger, here. The information speaks for itself. Show me some references that show where I am in error. I'm all ears.
I agree...it's a breed....a breed with tremendous genetic diversity due to a history of breed outcrossing and includes all the color varieties that we see today.
Cliff
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 1:06 PM
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fhtfire
1351 posts
May 16, 2008
1:29 PM
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Cliff,
Just because a couple yahoos....crossed in color does not mean that they are not a pure breed.....come on...show me that a Majority of loft were breeding in other breeds for pretty colors.
Just a couple lofts here and there...and look at the damage that has been done by a select few who choose to add a color and not base breedind on the performance. Just becuase you have a couple guys saying they added this and that...then why are a majority of lofts not showing all these colors...come on...I know a bunch of people that have crossed dogs..horses...whatever...the actions of a few do not dictate a breed...you have to be kidding me....I better call the american dairy goat association and let them know that I know of a couple breeders that crosses with alpines...so now the breed is no longer a pure breed....GIVE ME A BREAK>>LOL...How many fliers were in the U.S. and Britian.....and they were all adding opal and toy stencil...RIGHT!! Cliff...this is such a crock...
Of course there were breeds crossed back in the day..to get what they wanted in the breed....almost every domesticated breed was started that way.......crossing this with that and then keeping the breed pure....let me put it to you this way...if the breed was not pure....then there would be no uniformity to the birds at all performance wise....you would not have the high % of good birds...if the crosses were to the EXTREME>..oh I have to laugh.....That you are talking about..then every loft would have white bars...opals.....top notches....toy stencil..popping up everywhere...you see cliff...take a look...you see lots of "mainstream" colors..becuase why..that is the norm...that is what has been bred into the birds to set them...the standard colors pop out...because they are SET...yes you can have a throwback..that is totally natural...so out of 600 birds bred..I have had 2 grouse leg..throw back....I have had mottles, tort, grizzle, blue bar, RR, Blue Check, Black etc etc......those are set standard colors....I have yet to have an opal..whitebar....toy stencil..etc...why is that if the bred is so f-up....and not pure....the actions of a few do not dictate a breed....but the actions of a few can sure start a snowball of crap..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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sippi
252 posts
May 16, 2008
1:35 PM
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That brings up an interesting point Cliff. I would like to see a little information from the Purist stand point to support the anal retentive attitude that has been adopted from that side.
It has been raining in sunny Florida so I have spent all day re-reading the history of the Birmingham Roller so please present me something factual contrary to what David or Cliff has posted. They have posted historical written documentation. I have the same writings myself. I have yet to find in all my readings anything to support most, NOT ALL, of the Purist Rhetoric. All I can find as I search further is more support of the color breeders assertations.
Brown, dominant Opal, which I dont want but some do, and reduced, and indigo were probably in the birds before I was born and maybe longer. Brown is an original color of the oriental roller and is called Dun in the Purist camp so as not to make it an admission. As is silver also a brown based colot. They are all referenced in 1965 by Levi.
I dont have the penchant for research and quoting as well as Cliff but if you want to read it:
Encyclopedia of Pigeons
Wendell Levi
Sippi
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sippi
253 posts
May 16, 2008
1:52 PM
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....let me put it to you this way...if the breed was not pure....then there would be no uniformity to the birds at all performance wise....you would not have the high % of good birds...if the crosses were to the EXTREME>..oh I have to laugh.....
I have to take exception with this statement. I dont think those percentages are that high. I think the percentages are low as far as a performance breed goes.
And it has nothing to do with mongrelizing or crossbreeding. It is because the family is, breed, strain, or whatever you chose to call it is so young.
The competition bird we are breeding today is just a little over fifty or sixty years old. Yeah!!
Now before you go jumping up and down and screaming and having a tantrum read on.
We no longer allow for the bird that Pensom himself described as having a twizzle or plate roll at the end of a performance. Therefore we have made a change in the breed sometime since 1958 when Pensom wrote this. Therefore these things have been selectively bred out in the last fifty years. Not supposition, not conjecture and not guessing but plain simple fact.
Another reason I disagree with you is that the Oriental roller which is thousands of years old produces a very high percentage of acceptable performers. I get close to ninety percent out of my Husband birds. It will take another eight hundred years before you can say that about the Birmingham Roller.
Not a knock against the Birm just a chronological fact.
Sippi
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ezeedad
526 posts
May 16, 2008
2:16 PM
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Tony,
In classification of different kinds of organisms, the scientists seem form two groups.
One group is the splitters, which want to call certain related living things, different species.
The other group is the clumpers, who would call the same organisms subspecies... therfore all the same species.
This is also what we have been talking about, mostly, when we have been trying to define the breed.
It's very hard to do, especially when it comes to drawing the line, like to say when does the breed or species begin and become distinct from related types.
In the end, I think, in science as in rollers the species or breed is in the eye (or mind) of the beholder.
Paul G
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 2:25 PM
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fhtfire
1352 posts
May 16, 2008
2:34 PM
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Sippi,
I culled maybe 8 birds out of 70 or so last year....are those percentages not high enough for you. The percentage of good birds is high....now let me clarify....the percentage of stock birds is ALOT lower....When I say high % of good birds..those are birds that are good team birds or roll players......There is a high % of good birds or ok birds out there...or couser we all strive for the BEST..but the fact is.....I could breed every bird in my A-team if I followed the standard..but some have a very high standard and don't have the room....It seems lots are getting a high percentage of good birds...
I find it offensive that you would say that I woudl jump up and down and throw a tantrum....I have yet to throw a tantrum in 4 years of being here. so speak for yourself...and the anal retentive purist.....why is it so bad not cross a breed with another breed...tell me that...explain it to me...while it is ok to cross breed....why is wanting to keep a breed pure...and not cross such a bad thing....that is so ass backwards...LOL...Heaven for bid that I never bring in another breed that does not even roll for a color...heaven for bid I go against the "standard" right from the get go...what a horrible thing to want to keep my birds from being mounted by a French Mondain
I could care less what was brought into the breed in the early 1800's....and again..just because a couple guys write that there were some crosses done......does not mean they crossed every birmingham in the nation...thank gosh there were some purists out there that kept the breed going...I have yet to pop up an opal...or toy stencil in my loft....actually...I have never seen a toy stencil in real life in teh many lofts that I have visited...maybe the crosses done in the 30's did not make it to every one.
Again..there are no facts about what made the Birmingham roller anyway...nothing was documented back then....this is all speculation.....and guesses....I really do not care what 6 breeds were mated together back in a cave in the middle east.....I only care about cross breeding here and now.....period..and for the elevedy billionth time...I AM not accusing anyone on this site of color breeding...I am saying that it is wrong....
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1229 posts
May 16, 2008
2:47 PM
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Paul F. What proof do you have to be able to say that Color Breeding is wrong with the Birmingham Rollers.
Since Scott won't answer the question as to what colors are allowed in the Birmingham Roller.His answer is always it is easier to say what isn't allowed in them but won't say what they are.Maybe you can tell us color breeders what is allowed and what isn't.
From the very beginning all I have found is that "There is no set Color in Birmingham Rollers.I have documented proof of this.Can you find me any documented proof to override this statement? David
P.S. Does your Dairy Goat Registery have a Color Standard?
Just curious.LOL
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MILO
1012 posts
May 16, 2008
3:18 PM
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David.
I think Scott is tired. Let me help him out. Color-breeding and cross-breeding are two entirely different animals. Both practices suck. I don't know why everyone is so confused. As for color breeders... Anyone that looks at the color of a bird and makes a selection based on that first, and not how it performs, is going to wind up with a loft of shitty rollers. I just can't be more blunt than that. Everyone can say what they want, even bring Turner into it...but the fact remains. Shitty Rollers. It also sends a bad message to new fanciers, and yes, a worse message than those that oppose the practice like Scott.
c
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1230 posts
May 16, 2008
3:42 PM
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Milo. You said.Anyone that looks at the color of a bird and makes a selection based on that first, and not how it performs, is going to wind up with a loft of shitty rollers.
Now we are getting somewhere.I agree with what you said 100%
As long as the performance is there it don't matter what color they are.David
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Scott
563 posts
May 16, 2008
4:05 PM
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(I think Scott is tired. Let me help him out. Color-breeding and cross-breeding are two entirely different animals. )
Not tired Milo, just dizzy LOL ,
Different ? they could be but for the most part has gone hand in hand.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1353 posts
May 16, 2008
4:25 PM
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David,
Proof that color breeding is wrong...geez...breeding a fantail or whatever to a brimingham is wrong...breeding a brimingham to a birmingham is right..breeding a pit bull to a poodle is wrong....breeding an Arabian to a wild mustang is wrong.....breeding a racing homer to a king pigeon is wrong...if you are trying to maintain the breed and breed for performance only..then it is wrong...that does not take rocket science.
I will ask you..I don't know half the colors because I could care less..but Let me ask you this...was another breed brought in to make toy stencil, lace and white bar just as an example....or were those there all the time........if so...we are done with conversation....
James Turner even admitted in the video that he brought other breeds in....that is all I am saying..that is wrong.....gosh...I am dizzy like Scott...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1231 posts
May 16, 2008
4:36 PM
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Paul F.Once again you sidestepped the question.As you said tho you don't know half the colors so it is really no use trying to prove something you don't know much about..
But I would like to ask you a simple question about the Pure Birmingham Rollers.
Why is it alright to allow the Pure Birmingham that was there when the breed was accepted as a Breed to evolve into the competition roller it is today but yet wrong to allow it to evolve in Color? Honest answer.David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1232 posts
May 16, 2008
4:57 PM
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Paul.Thanks for that info on the Goats.
Now we will discuss Lace and Toy Stencil.LOL.
Lace is nothing more than the Reduced factor on the Check Pattern.
Toy Stencil I have no clue.But I have never heard of it in writings about the Birmingham Roller.
I will include another which is Pencil.I read somewhere that the Pencil gene is what the English call Maggies and if I am not mistaken Pensom imported some here from England.I am just trying to recall from memory on that and that is not saying much.
So I will agree Toy Stencil is a valid argument but I also believe in allowing the Breed to evolve as long as the end result meets the Standard of the Birmingham Roller.
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Scott
564 posts
May 16, 2008
5:10 PM
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Dave , what on earth is a competition Roller ?
On the colors that you mention and where they came from I used to think that you guys were just naive , I now know that it is more than that and is why I don't have any respect for color breeders.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1355 posts
May 16, 2008
5:38 PM
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David,
Allowing a breed to evolve is letting things happen on there own without bringing another breed into the birmingham. Now if you tell me that the color off Blue pattern..just happened by breeding two Birminghams together...then I am fine with that...I am only upset when another breed in intorduced..and I am not talking about 20 years ago..I am talking about the guy that is doing it as we speak and selling them as Birminghams...
No prob on the Goat Lesson...Just showing the standard..LOL..
As far as competition roller...What is that?? My rollers are deep and fast...I also have shallow and fast....so I am confused about that one....I do not change how I breed a bird based on comp..I breed it based on kicking ass in the air..pulling the pin...jerking the chain..whatever you want to call it...but rolling hard fast deep with excellent quality and then getting back to the kit....they would do the same thing if I flew comp or not...
rock and ROLL
Pul
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 5:40 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1234 posts
May 16, 2008
5:47 PM
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Paul F. You said:As far as competition roller...What is that?? My rollers are deep and fast...I also have shallow and fast....so I am confused about that one....I do not change how I breed a bird based on comp..I breed it based on kicking ass in the air..pulling the pin...jerking the chain..whatever you want to call it...but rolling hard fast deep with excellent quality and then getting back to the kit....they would do the same thing if I flew comp or not...
And exacty the way I breed mine.But I will guarantee one thing:You and I will never win the WC by breeding Fast and Deep Rollers.Now you may select your shallow and fast and win but that is not the way the original BRs were.So Competition has caused the BR to evolve over the years to a Shallow Roller.Not my opinion Just a Fact.David
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sippi
254 posts
May 16, 2008
5:52 PM
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Paul chill out a little. I was pulling your chain about the tantrum. But you wrote three paragraphs or four maybe and did not answer a single question.
We as breeders have changed the Birmingham roller with the competition birds. I you dont believe this you need to read Pensoms writings again or the first time or what ever. Tell me you have birds in your comp kit that plate roll or twizzle and I will concede that point. Unless you have Orientals or Fireballs anyone I know would immediately cull such a bird. That is changing the breed.
Scott how can you publicly proclaim your disrespect for the color rollers and people that have them and then claim to be able to be a fair and impartial judge. I wouldnt want you judging my kit after the statements you have made in this thread.
Sippi
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Scott
565 posts
May 16, 2008
6:03 PM
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Tell me you have birds in your comp kit that plate roll or twizzle and I will concede that point.
Paul, put them at an unsafe ht. and that is exactly what a "good" bird will do, that is what they do when in control of the roll.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 6:04 PM
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sippi
256 posts
May 16, 2008
6:16 PM
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So will you keep a bird in your comp kit that plate rolls or twizzles at the end of a good roll? Not at an unsafe hieght. Pensom said nothing about an unsafe hieght. I wont quote it but you know well which phrase I am refferring or I either give you too much credit.
sippi
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Scott
566 posts
May 16, 2008
6:29 PM
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(Scott how can you publicly proclaim your disrespect for the color rollers and people that have them and then claim to be able to be a fair and impartial judge. I wouldnt want you judging my kit after the statements you have made in this thread.)
Paul, go back and re read my post, it specificly states "those that color breed and or crossbreed" that in itself tells me that they are just keepers and not fliers.
There are a few fliers that I very much have respect for that have the mutt gene buried into some of thier birds,I don't consider them color breeders.
As for me judging , a good kit can't be denied , it is that simple.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
567 posts
May 16, 2008
6:38 PM
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(So will you keep a bird in your comp kit that plate rolls or twizzles at the end of a good roll? Not at an unsafe hieght. Pensom said nothing about an unsafe hieght. I wont quote it but you know well which phrase I am refferring or I either give you too much credit.)
Paul, what makes a bird that can hammer also tumble,twizzle ect. ? that is an easy question, it is because they are fighting the roll "control" , hell I'll breed some strong cocks every year where they will do nothing but due to being to physicly and mentaly strong.
As for Pensom , I am going to try and read in what the context of his message was on that,nor do I care, but he does describe what the breed should do with no mention of such also, so I assume he was refering to the control stand point as that is what good birds will do when need be, that wasn't the context I could care less.
I know what makes birds do the funky stuff and I see it near everyday, which I described the reason for above.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 6:44 PM
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sippi
257 posts
May 16, 2008
6:51 PM
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So give me your honest answer. Do you not think that we, and I mean every single person that is trying to win the WC or FF, have not evolved the Birm past what was considered the proper standard fifty years ago.
Sippi
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Ballrollers
1248 posts
May 16, 2008
6:55 PM
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Milo
I thought the title of this thread was "Is the roller pigeon a breed?" Somehow it always gets around to trashing color birds and the guys who breed and fly them doesn't it? I understand, though...when the facts are stacked against your position and you have no facts with which to defend your position, just trash the opposition! LOL!
I am so glad you stated your OPINION on color birds, based on your direct hands on knowledge by flying these birds. What Family did you fly, how many years did you fly them? Did you pick them from the air so to verify their performance before you received them? You wouldn't be making an emotional decision based only on the strength of your feelings, rather than the facts about the birds, would you? I gave you more credit than that!
My opinion, after flying them for the last three years, against stiff competition and doing my best by them, is much different from yours. I have found them very qualified to earn the title of a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER and a very special breed of performance Rollers to say the least.
I do agree with you that performance must come first, second, and third before anything else. But if I can pair up my best performing pairs to pump out another andalusian or indigo, I do my best to do so. Not for the feather color, but because I see a relationship between those colors and performance in my family. I guess that makes me one of THEM! LOL!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1249 posts
May 16, 2008
7:04 PM
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Scott
Just imagine where we would be today if the fathers of the ROLLER BREED..... had not crossed breeds.......We would not have this wonderful performance roller pigeon, we have today. Let guys experiment, we have to verify our birds by the performance standard anyway. There are plenty of so-called "pure" famlies around as you say.If what ever color a flyer happens to like does not perform to standard, it should not be called a TRUE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER. It could be a "pure" this or that but not a True Birmingham Roller.
How many "Varieties" of the roller breed are there scattered across the world? Many? A few? But only one True Birmingham Roller...
Cliff
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MILO
1013 posts
May 16, 2008
7:07 PM
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"Scott. (moderated) David"
This is the rudest post I have ever seen. It should be moderated, and you should be banned.
c
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 7:20 PM
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katyroller
181 posts
May 16, 2008
7:19 PM
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"On the colors that you mention and where they came from I used to think that you guys were just naive , I now know that it is more than that and is why I don't have any respect for color breeders."
Scott, The problem with the statement you made is that you consider anyone with a color bird on their property a color breeder. If a guy selected his stock EXACTLY like you do but ended up with a color bird, you would insist that color was the only reason for selection. Just admit it and drop the charade, you have come to this ignorant conclusion and can not be educated that not all color birds are crossbred mongrels. You are also so set in your ignorant mindset that you can not understand that there are color breeders that select their breeding stock to the same standard as any other successful fancier but choose to include color in their selection process. You have made your point loud and clear to anyone that cares what you believe. I'm sure your lack of respect for color breeders will not keep anyone awake at night or change the practice. Let's move on to bigger and better things!
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Electric-man
1594 posts
May 16, 2008
7:32 PM
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Milo, I agree!
Since this debate has gone to the point where its just "relentless arguing and name calling" it is clearly breaking the posting policy! I've put in a protest to Tony about an hr ago!
I'm gonna say that anymore post from either side, comes before I get an answer, there gonna be taken down! I won't take either side, just think we need to get away from this issue!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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fhtfire
1356 posts
May 16, 2008
7:39 PM
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Sippi,
I like Scott have birds that do that too..and the line in the book you are talking about...Pensom is not saying that is the standard...he says that is what the rollers do..they are special....why do you think he would talk one minute about how a roller should roll fast like a spinning ball and then say that they need to twizzle too...he was only saying that is what rollers do..they can tear it up and twizzle and plate roll and he ejoyed the diversity...I have some of my best birds do that when they are coming in...they twizzle and kind of screw around...but if you are trying to tell me that the standard that Pensom was trying to set was rollers that don't ball up..then why does everyone quote Pensoms....spinging ball and the pictures that he drew of good quality...because twizzling is good quality... Anyway...my birds do it when they are down low...and that is what I like about them too...so seems to me nothing has changed..except there are a lot more birds out there that are good...Pensom would be shit'n rubber nickles if he saw the quality of birds from loft to loft.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 7:40 PM
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Velo99
1745 posts
May 16, 2008
7:49 PM
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Ummm
Keep your birds straight and people that want true bred BR`s will come and find you.
Where did you guys get those big red marks on your chests? Looks like you got thumped or something.
This is entirely conjecture. The BR became the BR when people out of the Black Country wanted "a pair of them rollers". Ya gotta go down Birmingham way and ask those chaps about em. Then as breeds were more standardized and more book were written and then along comes MR Levi to make it about as official as it gets.
So in a nutshell yes.
Sorry T, couldnt help it.
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V99
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Last Edited by on May 16, 2008 7:58 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2523 posts
May 16, 2008
7:55 PM
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OH BOY! WHAT"S GOING ON!?
Let's all take a time out. I am locking this thread for the time being so all can cool down and speak later with a level head.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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