ezeedad
539 posts
May 18, 2008
6:41 PM
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Just thought I'd throw this into the mix.. It seems that one of the most famous Birmingham Rollers had a creme badge grandmother. Yes, the Crystal Palace Cock on the cover of Pensom's book.
Gomez
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WaTtS UpP
827 posts
May 18, 2008
6:56 PM
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lets see a picture of the bird gomez
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Watts uppp homeboy
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ezeedad
541 posts
May 18, 2008
7:00 PM
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What bird Nick? The Crystal Palace Cock.?? I thought you told me that you had bought the book..
Gomez
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Scott
610 posts
May 18, 2008
7:09 PM
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No,pic of the grandmother, we want proof LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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WaTtS UpP
829 posts
May 18, 2008
7:09 PM
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yeah but i cant find it i think its in my girls car
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Watts uppp homeboy
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ezeedad
542 posts
May 18, 2008
7:23 PM
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Picture... right..!! I need a picture to prove it... LOL..
Gene Geigolt, (Nick, he is the NBRC historian) has the records.. probably lots of other people too...
Gotta go feed the birds...
Gomez
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3757
741 posts
May 18, 2008
10:30 PM
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Paul this is a great observation and my statement below is not towards you but I want the guys that read this stuff to start thinking more and not believe only one side of a story. Here is my observations and understanding through personal interviews with many old timers as well as researching the subject.
Many times Americans translate things not knowing the true definition of the colloquial speech. I see this lot in Spanish and in French. In Mexico the term Cabron is used a lot but in Spain in means something totally different. If I call you a Cabron am I calling you a male goat or something else? The word Chatin amongst the older Quebecois and in Cajun country means a doll but in France it means a prostitute. The original pedigree states that the bird was a Creamy badge hen. Not a cream badge hen. So, the question to the guy you guys state is the historian is does he know what a creamy badge hen means? Is creamy peanut butter cream color or does creamy peanut butter mean something else? Remember this is not bashing creams at all but the word was creamy badge not cream badge on some of the documentation. It is almost like the picture of Christ that Michael Angelo painted. Many people believe that is his image and it was Michael Angelo's cousins portrait not Christ. This is how history gets distorted through time.
Professor LaRon Doucet
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 10:38 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1243 posts
May 19, 2008
4:13 AM
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Professor Laron.If it had said Cream Badge would it have meant the Color of Cream or could it have meant something else? When we get to the part of trying to determine exactly what the writer was thinking at the time it is time to take a step back and forget it.Did they even have Creamy Peanut Butter at the time? David
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3757
742 posts
May 19, 2008
8:40 AM
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David - I do not think you understand what I meant by using the term creamy peanut butter. The term creamy peanut butter is used today but what does it mean? This is the point. Also, my point is that I also have evidence that the writers used the word creamy also which signfied that the bird was a rich in color badge.
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Fire_Baller_916
272 posts
May 19, 2008
9:04 AM
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Laron got a point there...LOL...
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Chai Seng
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ezeedad
544 posts
May 19, 2008
10:25 AM
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Hi LaRon,
Was there any mention of color other than creamy? If not I think one would have to conclude that the color was a off whitish, or pale yellow. I've seen these birds around for as long as I can remember. Where the color from... I don't know.
Were any of the Pensom imports dowm from the Crystal Palace bloodlines...?
I find it hard to believe that the original Pensom birds were so "pure" that none of them could have been carrying a dilute gene, or the qualmond like Cornell got out of one pair. Maybe some of the breeders don't want to admit when something different comes out, in fear of others thinking that they don't have the genuine article..
Also, everybody knows that Pensom worked on yellows for a while..
Paul G
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3757
743 posts
May 19, 2008
1:04 PM
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Paul - As far as the crystal palace cock is concerned I do not believe there was a dilute factor. This bird was jammed in some cases by many of the early breeders. Also, there were individuals in England who bred from brothers and sisters of the crystal palace cock and no such mention of cream in this line that I have research thus far. However, any true Pensom historian will tell you that there were creams in some of the old lines in the Black Country and that some of the birds sent here had some cream ancestry. Almonds were never ever mentioned in any records of Smith, Plona, McCully, Perkins or Pensom (These gentlemen make up 97 percent of the current day descendents of Pensom line pigeons.
Now, it is interesting how many conclude that Pensom breeders or followers are saying how pure a line is and I cannot for the life of me figure out how that conclusion comes from my writings. As far as the creams that Bill had in the 1950's they were from Birds that Plona and Spuria had imported to this country. As you know he had many projects but he also had his family of pigeons. He did get rid of those birds in the 1950's. I can guarantee if someone buys a kit of Caspersons to try them out and they get rid of them later they will not consider the birds their family but an experiment. It is definite that the early Black Country breeders had no issue or concern with creams but the subject was regarding Crystal palace MRS-25-521.
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ezeedad
547 posts
May 19, 2008
1:25 PM
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Thanks LaRon,
Your point regarding the Crystal Palace Cock is well taken. Also the info concerning presence of cremes in the old blackcountry area.
I also believe that Pensom bred those yellows completely seperately. That is probably why he didn't have much success with them. He probably needed to infuse some new genes into his pool.
I have also read that almond probably came from the North American rollers, developed in Canada and the USA.
A lot of informtion is lost and we will never know some of the things we want to know... but if we keep trying we will learn some of those things.
Take Care my friend,
Paul
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3757
744 posts
May 19, 2008
7:09 PM
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Paul - Thanks. What you said is so true and the truth will set us free :)
LaRon Doucet
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crystalpalace
349 posts
May 19, 2008
9:35 PM
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The pedigree record behind the Bill Pensom crystal palace cock reveal their was a dilute hen. I have bred the same color in both cock birds and hens since the seventees. They have been in-bred and line-bred and no dilutes like cream checks or cream bar have ever been bred whatsoever. Happy Hilton said he bred a cream check out of his fathers rollers after Ralph Hilton passed away. He gave the cream check hen to Richy Nafsgar and he flew it for nearly a year. Then I bought the cream bar hen and flew it for almost a year before stocking her. Brian Buskirk and the historian down in L.A. came to my house in Ceres, California to watch me fly a kit and the cream check was flown in that kit. The hen was very frequent with high ex-wing and medium in depth. They were impressed with her performance and she was stocked after that fly. When Ralph Hilton Sr. was breeding his stock he never mentioned dilutes were ever bred from stock directly out of the Bill Pensom crystal palace cock bird. It definely was a mistory for many years until Happy Hilton bred the cream check hen. I mated the hen to a cream bar cock that was a deep performer from Bob Evans stock. I met Mel Evans at the 1966 N.P.A. Grand National Show in Los Angeles. I won Champion Helmet that year and Mel Evans was the judge. He invited me to his house and I saw his stud of Helmets and stud of cream bars. Mel said, he purchased the stud from Bill Pensom and they were smaller than Bob Evans stock. I came home with some of the cream bars and was surprised how good they could perform. Chan Grover had some cream bars from Bob Evans for many years. I visites Braswell and Norwood in the sixtees when all of us were young. They cleaned the lofts of Bill Pensom and came home with his rollers. Bob told me his almonds came from the loft of Bill Pensom. I heard Bill Pensom purchased rollers from Bill Hauge another English man from England. Bill Hauge bred and flew all colors of rollers that were different in apperiance than the ones Bill Pensom bred and flew. Bill Hauge helped form the Southern California Roller Club and George Gulla was instrumental in it too. Bill Pensom helped organize the NBRC in the early nineteen sixtees and both roller clubs were very active. Northern California was a N.B.R.C. hot-bed for breeding the Bill Pensom stock that was imported to the United States. There are not very many roller fanciers from that area that still breed and fly rollers in the United States. Keep em Flying, Ray Sanchez.
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ezeedad
555 posts
May 20, 2008
12:39 PM
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Ray,
Thanks a lot for verifying about the presence of creme in the old birds, as well as that Pensom did have some almonds. I saw one when I visited his loft, and Cornell Norwood produced a qualmond out of a Pensom bred pair. But my word alone doesn't seem to carry enough weight in some of the guys eyes.
Paul Gomez
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Spinncity
6 posts
May 20, 2008
1:05 PM
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I find this discussion very interesting, not with standing the fact that I cannot care less what the color of the bird is as long as it is performing to a true Bimingham Roller standard.
It was my priviledge to have Ernie Strattford at my house in the early 1980. He was of the opinion that the Crystal palace cock was not a pigeon bred Pensom but that it was was trapped by him. The same story was told to me in later years by other English fanciers.
Out of your discussions, it is actualy clear that there was a pedigree for this bird.Very interesting.
The true history of our birds will allways be a mistory!!!
Johnny Conradie
RSA
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 1:07 PM
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3757
746 posts
May 20, 2008
1:52 PM
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Paul - I am one of those guys. Bill had a lot of birds that he experimented with and this is suggesting that he had almonds in his line. Ray no offense but what pair were they out of? Is not a almond a sex link dominant? Where are the other almonds in the family or in his records? Also, I have two friends who lived right around the corner from him and they never seen any either but anything is possible.
Thanks
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 2:11 PM
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ezeedad
556 posts
May 20, 2008
2:06 PM
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LaRon,
Okay, therein lies the question. We seem to now have to define just what is a Pensom bird. In my opinion, if he bred it, it is a Pensom bird.
Also, those birds which he used must have had some value to him.
Anyway, all I claim is that the qualmond bird that Cornell bred came out of a mating of two birds that Pensom bred. So it could well have been one of those experiments that he was working on.
Paul
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crystalpalace
350 posts
May 20, 2008
10:20 PM
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La Ron I never heard Bill Pensom talk about almond rollers being bred or exhibited. I dont recall him taking any to the LAPC table shows either. If there were any on his property they could have come from Bill Hauge. I didnt want to argue with my friend so I kept my mouth shut. I saw lot of the rollers that Bill Pensom bred and exhibeted. He would tell me everything about the birds like a student in school. We also handled and studied his black and white Gazzi Modenas. Mr. Pensom showed his flying Tipplers too. I cant recall seeing any of his Racing Homers exhibited. Plan on telling some interesting information about the bronze wing,gold wing, brown rollers from northern California. This family is different than the family Tony Kresmer and George Gulla bred and flew. In the sport, FRS.
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3757
747 posts
May 21, 2008
7:06 AM
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Ray - We agree on the Almond issue! There are no accounts of almonds in Bill's records or any history regarding almonds in Bill's line, Smith, Perkins or Plona. If someone bred one it was not out of the Bill Pensom's stock.
LaRon
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 7:10 AM
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J_Star
1586 posts
May 21, 2008
7:46 AM
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I was told by Joe Quinn a story while we were meeting at Wally Fort’s house last year that when he was a kid how he saved his money, $5 worth which were like $500 today, so he can purchase an almond roller that performed excellent from Mr. Kupkie in Canton, Ohio back in the early 30’s. So almonds were around for a long time.
Jay
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3757
748 posts
May 21, 2008
8:11 AM
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Jay - Krupke did have almonds but all of the claims of almonds from Bill Pensom's stock and no one can show it in the records or tell anyone what pairs they were out of because he had none in his family of rollers. But, I agree that Krupke had almonds. Incidentally, the Krupke birds have been around since the turn of the Century. I believe he came to the states in the 1880's.
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J_Star
1588 posts
May 21, 2008
8:52 AM
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I believe Joe told me he was 10 to 12 years old back then. The question is does anybody know where Krupke got his birds from. I had some writing about him and the origin of his birds but I can't seem to locate it at the moment.
If so he had almonds back then, then almond was not created back in the 60s and 70s to bring in new color into the rollers as some state..I would think.
I know from the forum discussion that Pensom did not have at hand any almonds, but he traded quality birds from several lofts at that time and is not disputed that he did. The question is would one of those birds or several might of been carrying the almond gene all along and did not show itself until some appropriate mating caused it to come out!! Just thinking out loud.
Jay
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3757
749 posts
May 21, 2008
9:58 AM
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Jay - This is true but the only issue I have with this is that ,according to my understand of genetics, if you have a almond cock you will get 50% almonds when mated to a non almond hen so where did all of the other almonds go and why is it that no one who was close to Bill ever heard of them in the line? Jay, these questions are not towards you but a general statement.
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crystalpalace
351 posts
May 21, 2008
10:00 AM
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The Madison Square Garden showroom in New York had a large display of almond rollers on display. Competition was very competitive and only the best marked almond were exhibited. I have a picture of the almond rollers that were shown at the Madison Square Garden in one of my old magizines. The white almond and blue almont are atractive in colouration but havent got the Ideal Standard Almond color. It was very exciting as a youngster to see almond rollers performing deep spins. I saw one almond cock bird from southern California spinning 30-40 feet back in the early nineteen eightees. My family of almond have been mated to a kite hen from Bill Pensoms stock. They are being flown and bred in several lofts in the USA. I saw some that are being flown in southwest Missouri that are performing favorable. They shell out all the basic colors that almonds produce. I remember some of the old timers bred yellow and possibly red with their almond rollers. Keep your eye out for almond rollers that were the talk of the town many years ago in the United States of America. As ever, Ray Sanchez.
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George R.
127 posts
Oct 28, 2009
3:58 PM
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Pensom never had Almonds I didnt know that.
LaRon Doucet said about Almonds
If someone bred one it was not out of the Bill Pensom's stock
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2108 posts
Oct 29, 2009
8:32 AM
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On the Almond issue, all we know is that Pensom described almond as one of the colors inherent in the Birmingham Roller in many of his publications in the 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. Regarding dilute....when Jay Alnimer, Dave Szabatura, and I visted Chan Grover after the Sacramento NBRC Convention, Chan showed us a photo album of many old, original photographs of Pensom and his birds that he took while stationed in England and visiting Pensom while on leave. There were quite a few black and white photos that were written and labeled "Pensom cream bar hen" and "Pensom yellow check" etc. My recollection is that Chan pointed out one that was the mother (I thought, but it could have been the grandmother) of the Crystal Palace Cock. So Chan has the proof. Is that what you recall, Jay? It's hard to be sure...we saw so many photos and discussed so many birds in such a very short period of time. I sure hope Chan will make all those records available for the hobby to keep for posterity to settle many of these rumors and issues that get started about the days gone by.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2009 8:37 AM
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3757
1310 posts
Oct 29, 2009
11:07 AM
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Cliff - I hope you are well. "However, any true Pensom historian will tell you that there were creams in some of the old lines in the Black Country and that some of the birds sent here had some cream ancestry. Doucet 2008" This is well documented also.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
2113 posts
Oct 29, 2009
2:23 PM
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LaRon,
It's good to hear that from someone that I have such high regard for, when it comes to the true history of the Pensom rollers. You have to admit, though, that there are some among us who would profess to know better...YOU even led me astray when you alluded to the use of "cream" meaning something other than dilute. I thought you were in denial! LOL!
Cliff
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
562 posts
Oct 29, 2009
6:30 PM
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Cream badge or light mealy badge? Lots of light mealy badges in his family.JDA
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3757
1311 posts
Oct 29, 2009
9:12 PM
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Cliff - Thanks for the compliment. I am one that believes that the truth will set you free. What I did say a year or so ago was that the word Creamy did not necessarily mean cream as we know it today. But I do know that there were a few creams in the Black country. However, You will not find Almonds in the Pensom birds that trace back to the imports anywhere.
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Scott
2591 posts
Oct 30, 2009
4:19 PM
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Pensom kept them around because they sold well , this according to ol Joe Borges ,I have never seen delute in the old main line birds.
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Scott Campbell
"It is about testicle fortitude !! "
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2009 4:26 PM
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TimP
191 posts
Nov 01, 2009
9:06 PM
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Just something I noticed back in 1995 when I got my first rollers from a racing homer guy that had gotten the birds from Dan McKenzie. He called the reds that were a brick color recessive but the ones that were considerably lighter but still reds in my opinion he called creams. I'm not sure about the Crystal Palace cocks grandma just something that I noticed!
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3451 posts
Nov 02, 2009
6:22 AM
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You right laRon,when I was kid back then you call me or someone a Cabron or > your mother you guarantee a fight..WE didn't even know it meant a mature male goat all I know there was fist flying all over the place.
today I hear these kids next door when they are outside talking all the vocabulary that comes out there mouth is cabron this cabron that ..I quickly stop to look to see if there's any fist flying not one and I chuckle to myself and say those were the days..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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DeepSpinLofts
1588 posts
Nov 02, 2009
11:03 AM
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Professor LaRon Doucet you make a rather interesting statement.
Professor Doucet: "It is almost like the picture of Christ that Michael Angelo painted. Many people believe that is his image and it was Michael Angelo's cousins portrait not Christ. This is how history gets distorted through time."
NOTE: In 1498, came Michelangelo's first important commission; the Pietà now in St. Peter's Basilica which is located within the Vatican City. The term pietà refers to a type of image in which Mary supports the dead Christ across her knees; Michelangelo's version is today the most famous one.
Hmm....
It is extremely hard to believe that Yeshua the Hebrew Messiah (Jesus) looked anything like that painting by Michelangelo Buonarroti. Keep in mind that we are referring to a mideastern born man (Yeshua AKA Jesus) that roamed around areas of Western Asia & East Africa roughly 2000 years ago.
....and
Mr. Buonarroti created this painting of Yeshua some fifteen hundred years later in Europe.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2009 12:41 PM
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Velo99
2186 posts
Nov 02, 2009
2:12 PM
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Yeah Marcos and all of the pics you see of Jesus he is white and pasty faced.
If you think about it for a minute you`ll realise that he had to have an outdoorsy look to him. He was a carpenter!!! He probably had dirty hands and cut up fingers. Sawdust on his robe,and dirty places on his butt where he wiped his hands. We all see Jesus as the messiah but none of us ever see him as a man. For some reason thats always glossed over.
Things werent as hygenic back then either. They bathed either in public baths or a large bowl. Walking or donkey riding were the main modes of transportation and still are in some areas. Now if a man walked 7-8 miles in the dust and heat,he isnt gonna be exactly spring time fresh when he gets there now is he?
How about the forty days he spent in the wilderness? Bet he looked good after that one. I remember seeing pictures of him sitting on a rock clean and shiny full of face,healthy and hale. I know 40 days is a figure of speech but just 5 days in the desert can be rough on a fella. Look at how Les Stroud is after 4-5 days in the wilderness.
Remember he lived 2000 years ago.
No playstation or NFL.
No cars computers or even very many horses for the average Moses.
No running water or electric lights. Just stinky old lamps and lenterns.
Haul your water from the communal wellor the river. Just keep and eye out for livestock.
Life expectancy was maybe 50 among the working class guys. Even shorter if you didnt mind your manners when the Romans were around. They might kill you for fun and have an ale afterwards.
The area Jesus lived in had been fought over since the beginning of time, literally. Scientists has surmised that the Mesopotamia was the birthplace of modern man.
OK I have regressed enough to make my point I hope. In case you didnt get it,it is Perception. We all have one and they are all different.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Hector Coya
576 posts
Nov 02, 2009
2:48 PM
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One question,what other color,besides YELLOW,is creammy,
I think we can look at it many ways but i cant think of a creammy pigeon,not looking YELLOW.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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3757
1317 posts
Nov 02, 2009
8:28 PM
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That is the problem with old word translations Hector people look at it in their mindset or way of thinking. Creamy badge can also mean a rich badge also. It also designates richness.
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Hector Coya
577 posts
Nov 03, 2009
3:24 PM
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La Ron,What color do you think they where talking about?
Lets eliminate the colors we know they where not talking about,It wasn't Red Check,Red self ,Dun,Lavender.
Those colors where named for other pigeons,Yet Creamy can only be for some sort of Dilute color,don't you think,,
Hector Coya-SGVS
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3757
1319 posts
Nov 03, 2009
5:56 PM
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As I stated Creamy badge can also mean a rich badge also. I do not deny that there were creams in the black country birds but it is a fact that the language of color description was different than ours.
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michael salus
75 posts
Nov 03, 2009
6:33 PM
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Can Anyone from England describe the color creamy as used by Pensom?
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MJ
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birdman
734 posts
Nov 03, 2009
7:32 PM
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How the description of 'Creamy' Badge can be thought of as anything else but resembling creme color takes a stretch of one's imagination.....unless Pensom was actually describing the rich, creamy flavor of the bird.
Just my guess.
Russ
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3757
1320 posts
Nov 03, 2009
7:44 PM
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People rather believe a lie than the truth and the truth is the language the black country fanciers used to describe colors was totally different than ours. It has nothing to do with imagination but facts and data. It does not mean a hill of beans if it was a cream anyway as we know creams were in some of the old black country bloodlines. Almonds are a different story.
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birdman
735 posts
Nov 03, 2009
7:57 PM
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LaRon said:
"People rather believe a lie than the truth and the truth is the language the black country fanciers used to describe colors was totally different than ours. It has nothing to do with imagination but facts and data. It does not mean a hill of beans if it was a cream anyway as we know creams were in some of the old black country bloodlines. Almonds are a different story"...............................................
What is the lie you are referring to?
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pigeon pete
424 posts
Nov 04, 2009
6:11 AM
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I visited Ollie Haris who was an old Black Country fancier and some of his colour descriptions had me scratching my head. Also I have seen tortoishells described as Almond. Red bars or mealies called Dun.
Spread ash as silvers, etc. Who knows after all these years. I have a nearly white red grizzle that looks almost orange in some lights, what they would have called that colour I haven't a clue. Strawberry and cream?
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Sound Rollers
115 posts
Nov 18, 2009
6:39 AM
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3757 said:
"As I stated Creamy badge can also mean a rich badge also. I do not deny that there were creams in the black country birds but it is a fact that the language of color description was different than ours"
Look at how Pensom describes the dimensions of a box perch on page 94. in his book. He uses deep where most of us in the United States would use height. I think 3757 has a very good point in what is meant by Creamy badge.
John
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2009 6:40 AM
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