kopetsa
703 posts
May 22, 2008
10:43 PM
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Interesting post, that is very unfortunate that so many birds are getting killed. I do not like RAPTORS at all, except for Red Tails (sometimes). The Coopers hawks, sharp shinned hawks, and ravens are trying to make life difficult right now, and especially for me. Thanks for taking the time to make that post. Interesting statistics!
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Andrew
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 6:42 AM
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pat66
150 posts
May 23, 2008
5:11 AM
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We as a caring group need to take action,maybe some research on the UHU OWL that preys on the overbearing raptors is the answer, In Germany they introduced the UHU and have had great success with it,
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Pat
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Electric-man
1613 posts
May 23, 2008
8:02 AM
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Very informative! Thank you Kelly!
We need to get the facts out there!!!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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maxspin
237 posts
May 23, 2008
8:15 AM
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Question:
What happens when the predators get so numerous that they begin to run short on their natural food source?
Answer:
They start to eat domestic animals.
Anyone seen a sharp increase in predators attacking domestic animals?
I know that I have at my house!!!
Keith Maxwell
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2548 posts
May 23, 2008
8:19 AM
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Do I sense the other shoe is starting to drop? Kel, where did this article come from?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
563 posts
May 23, 2008
12:51 PM
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Interesting post Kel,
But I think that it is very misleading. The predators have always been here. They were here when the songbirds now in decline were here in good numbers. They were here when the Passenger pigeon was probably the most numerous bird on earth. What happened to the Passenger Pigeon,,,?? Wiped out by MAN..!!
The main attack on our songbird populations has been from invasive species. They were brought here by people and have become major pests. They have outbred and out competed our native birds and have already caused the extinction of a great many North American species.
Currently, the three most common birds in North America are invasive species.
#1. The English Swarrow
#2. The Starling
#3. The Common Pigeon
Paul Gomez
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 12:53 PM
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ezeedad
564 posts
May 23, 2008
3:37 PM
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Sorry Val,
The falcons have given me the blues probably as much as anyone else, but facts are facts..
Paul G
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Oldfart
678 posts
May 23, 2008
3:54 PM
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Early this year I watched a Coopers Hawk climb into my neighbors hedge row, a routine for this hawk. What was not quite so routine was the cat that passed by, I to say the least was slightly interested! Cat, Hawk, cat was too heavy to carry off but not for lack of trying on the hawk's part! It jumped square in the middle of it's back! A small dog would have had no chance. I also know Cooper's hunt other birds, (trust me I know!)This must have been one hungry hawk.
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2549 posts
May 23, 2008
3:57 PM
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Hey Paul, I can see where you say the songbirds and bop have always existed together and so why is this only happening now? To me, it is a good point and a good question.
Would you consider that perhaps the MBTA, federal, state and local protections have removed man as a factor in terms of "thinning the herd" leading to "some" increase in population?
Would you also consider that breeding programs with the goal of increasing numbers in the wild may have some impact?
If so, is there any chance that some sort of tipping point has been reached?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
566 posts
May 23, 2008
4:23 PM
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Tony,
Good point about the tipping point concept. In my opinion, two things are happening.
First, the DDT ban is allowing most of the predatory birds to breed well, and they were given a running start by the breeding programs... At least the peregrine falcon program was very successful.
I don't have any documentation of bird populations, but there is a basic biological principle, that when a prey population is abundant the predator population will increase. Then when the prey population decreases the predators will decrease from lack of food.
So I believe that there has been so little predation on certain birds because of a lack of predators the food is abundant for them and they are now thriving.
It's sort of like when forest fires are restricted the forest gets so thick, and when a fire starts it it grows bigger than it would have naturally been.
Paul G
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DUCKS N ROLLERS
133 posts
May 23, 2008
4:34 PM
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here is some numbers on the coopers hawk that i found alarming.
taken from the "great american bird count", a yearly bird count from the cornell lab of ornithology and the audubon society.
for the state of california:
year count
2005 242
2006 266
2007 406
2008 428
......just about double in the last four years.
if i "locked down for five months this year, what can i expect in "2009"?????
kind of scary.
mike barry
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 4:35 PM
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George R.
720 posts
May 23, 2008
5:07 PM
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I think it is the BOP are what is killing all the Blue Jays and other Birds I used to hear and see when I lived in California.
The BOP are like scavengers they kill any and all Birds they can catch.
The balance has shifted in the BOP favor .
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 5:08 PM
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wishiwon2
55 posts
May 23, 2008
5:10 PM
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Val, Paul is right. It is sound biology that predator species will almost never hunt their prey resource to extinction. Predator/prey relationships are very complex and are affected by diverse factors. I am a professional biologist, I work directly with terrestrial predators, the same principles apply. As a prey population increases it will be followed by an increase in predator populations, as prey decreases predator pops follow. They shadow one another. There are small scale exceptions because of other additive or diminishing factors that may contribute, but in general it is a true principle.
We evaluate so many things from human perspective. We have a sense that a human lifespan is a long time. From a biological perspective it is a breif blip. I hear so often, "back when I was young ... things were ... so on and so forth". It is a limited and naive perspective of a natural system. Spacies have always been going extinct and others are evolving, becoming new, adapting. That is how this world works.
To all, on another note. There are ppl in this country who have been debating over predator population dynamics LOOONG before we as roller fanciers came along. The coyote has been one of THE most studied species, along with its relation to other prey species. To date there are extremely few studies, reports, analysis' to directly link coyote populations to any change in prey population densities in ANY cause and effect manner other than some local, small scale events. The only thing that has been established is that coyotes cause damage to human ventures. For a fact coyotes cause significant negative financial impacts to American agriculture. Yet there remains an intense emotional and intellectual controversy on what could, should or will be done to manage coyotes or the damage they may cause.
I agree with most of you, there seems to be a recent increase in BOP numbers. I wish they didnt affect you or I or our hobby. I also wish that our governmental system was such that it would allow individuals or localities to pursue active management options. We need to use caution in our analysis of cause and effect on this issue. We also must accept it is more of a public perception and opinion issue that it is an issue of biological concern. We dont want BOP attacking our pigeons, plain and simple. The real problem is how do we garner support from the public to back us. If we intend to use biology, we must stand on solid knowledge and understanding of bio-principles of population ecology, not on anecdotal hypotheses. I wish us luck as a collective group in selling our woe to John Q Public. Like I said, I work in a predator profession. We have been debating predator relations for 150 years in relation to livestock and agricultural production, we have not gained much new support. in fact the trend has been the opposite. Not trying to be pessimistic, just real. Sorry for being long, but this really struck an issue with me as it is something Ive made my life about ... had to speak up.
JHF
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George R.
721 posts
May 23, 2008
5:23 PM
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When you say that Predators and prey have a complex relationship , do you mean a Coyote and a Rabbit or a Shark and a Seal?
or do you mean a Hawk and Bird ? or is it all Preds and prey in general ? can you explain how a predator knows when not to eat a bird that has chicks or a Shark knows when not to eat a Seal because it has a Cub waiting on some food?
so if there was only a few Birds left in the Eco system the Hawks would stop eating Birds?
I always thought that in the wild only the strong survive.
thanks for the info. Im just trying to learn something here.
thanks George
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 5:25 PM
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Electric-man
1619 posts
May 23, 2008
5:24 PM
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I think that the whole point of the origianl article was just to try to get John Q. Public to open their eyes to the BOP situation!
Shot that idea full of holes though didn't we?
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2550 posts
May 23, 2008
5:33 PM
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wishiwon2 said:
"...The real problem is how do we garner support from the public to back us. If we intend to use biology, we must stand on solid knowledge and understanding of bio-principles of population ecology, not on anecdotal hypotheses..."
Response:
I agree, the biggest challenge we have is to rebut misconceptions, half-truths and outright lies told and passed to the media and public.
I read one site that said we fly rollers in order to attract bop so that we can kill them for sport! Can you BELIEVE THAT!?
wishiwon2 said:
"I wish us luck as a collective group in selling our woe to John Q Public.
Response:
"I think we should not expect allot of sympathy, after all we do release our birds into the "wild" when we fly them. But perhaps, for a certain fee permit, allow us the the chance to properly trap and relocate a proven problem predator.
Hey what could be better right? The bop are protected, a fancier has some legal remedy and the government gets more of our money! WIN-WIN-WIN!
wishiwon2 said:
"Like I said, I work in a predator profession. We have been debating predator relations for 150 years in relation to livestock and agricultural production, we have not gained much new support. in fact the trend has been the opposite.
Response:
Are not ranchers and farmers allowed to prevent predation of their livestock? If so, how do they go about getting this remedy?
Thanks for ALL your insight! Glad you are on out team! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2551 posts
May 23, 2008
5:37 PM
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Hey Val, if an argument(article) that we hope to score us some points cannot stand our own scrutiny, how will we be prepared to inform and educate an outright hostile audience?
I say we DO rip holes in it and see if it passes muster or not. No point believing something will work when it cannot pass the smell test.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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wishiwon2
56 posts
May 23, 2008
5:54 PM
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Tony,
Yes, farmers and ranchers are permited to protect their animals from predation. There are even government programs that provide them assistance in doing so, like the one I work for. There were laws passed in 1908 and 1912 that empowered or authorized ppl and gov programs to "protect agriculture" and natural resources. Over time (decades) however, the methods allowed and the circumstances under which it is permited have become increasingly more and more restrictive. I dont want to discuss these changes in detail in a public forum.
As our society has become more urbanized, it has also become less sympathetic to needs of ag producers. Along with that we (society) have lost touch with the land and it's wild inhabitants. As a roller and pigeon hobby we find ourselves on the same side of the predator fence as livestock producers.
As a society, we have a "not-in-my-backyard" syndrome. If it doesnt directly affect us, then we have either no opinion or an opinion that is biased based on the limited amount of information we have been told. "Told" not discovered for ourselves. Ex; Idahoans by majority didnt want to accept the populations of re-introduced wolves. However, some polls showed that nationally there was somewhere around 68% support for wolf re-introduction to Yellowstone and central Idaho. Those that favored re-introduction obviously didnt have livlihoods dependant on raising sheep, cattle or healthy elk and deer herds.
Until or unless we find ways to assign some responsibilty and ownership to publics dealing with raptor populations and how it affects our hobby/sport, we will continue to fight a losing battle alone. I think the article submited about losing songbirds to raptors is trying to do just that. It however has several major biases and assumptions. Tony you're right, we shouldnt expect sympathy. As we respond, we need to be defensible and above reproach. We can have an agenda, but we must be truthful and accurate in our propaganda, elsewise we will lose more credibility. We must tell the truth.
I think we as pigeon fanciers ought to be able to apply for and receive permits that allow us to protect our property. We can in fact already do this, but the process it happens by is slow, inefficient and ultimately not effective as a whole. One of the greatest priveleges of living in the land of the free is to have private holdings. To own property and be allowed to keep it safe and secure. Especially when our personal private property is being damaged by an element which is owned by the public.
Either allow me/us to remedy it, or compensate me/us. If you owned a dog and that dog came on to my property and caused damage, you the owner are liable. Same diff. If the publics falcon destroys my pigeon the public is liable and should either implement some control measure or compensate me.
Dont assume that because predator control or management goes on that it isnt controversial. It is extremely sensitive. In general, the proponents of predator control are losing.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 7:34 PM
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DUCKS N ROLLERS
134 posts
May 23, 2008
6:20 PM
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holes ?
I see a couple of differing opinions, but myself, i have not seen anything that changes my opinion that the article holds a lott of eye opening information.
Kelly,.....thanks for taking the time to post the atricle.
I still plan to forword the article to anyone i think might listen.
just my own opinion.
mike.
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Ty Coleman
327 posts
May 23, 2008
6:49 PM
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It my belief that John Q public could care less about us or our rollers, they dont see our birds get ripped apart and dont care they are just damned pigeons to them. Now when the family pet is attacked or killed that impaticular person's eyes were opened and it's a one in a million chance it will make the news and if it does it gets swept under the rug very quickly like the incident at Fenway Park, as bad as i hate to say it its going to take a young child being attacked or even killed before this will become a public issue and even then blame will probably be passed on the parents as being negligent. As children in school are taught of the beauty and grace of the bop and not the ugly side of the beast what do we expect?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 6:51 PM
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George R.
722 posts
May 23, 2008
6:55 PM
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Thanks for the explanation.... But I still think there are to many BOP... and not because I Fly Pigeons ... I used to go to a wild life sanctuary in south El Monte and there was a tremendous amount of Birds there and the last Time I went a few years ago , it was hard to Find a Bird...
I have always liked birds and that includes BOP it's just that there should always be a balance ... plastic is when people breed BOP in the inner City's and release them there.. The BOP only know that as there Home... if I bred aligators and released them in inner city Lakes I would be arrested and sent to Prison for putting a Predator in a Plastic enviorment....
So what is the difference ?
just my opinion
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 6:57 PM
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wishiwon2
58 posts
May 23, 2008
7:30 PM
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George,
Im not saying there arent an over abundance of raptors. Just backing what Paul G said.
'Plastic' in ecological terms, how I used it, means a species that is able to mold itself into or adapt into a variety of habitats or environments. It doesnt mean that its plastic as in artificial, like pen raised gators in Las Vegas.
One thing each of us could do is document our losses. I think Tony has or had a link to report hits. Also share your story with your local news paper. Sure you wont get in on front page of Daily Herald, start small, let it grow its self. Dont try to put a spin on it (no pun) just tell the facts, what happened. For many of us our life revolves around our birds, its hard to think that there are lots of ppl who dont care, we are a huge minority on this. That wont change overnight, and we wont ever become a majority. With issues like fuel prices and War, pigeon deaths arent headline news, but we can start somewhere.
JHF
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DUCKS N ROLLERS
135 posts
May 23, 2008
7:32 PM
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Hi George,
I have to agree with you...too many b.o.ps !
but thats just you,me and a bunch of pigeon lovers.
i guess thats the "difference".
if george bush, arnold schwarzeneger,oprah,donold trump,etc,etc. were pigeon lovers we would have a voice.
if you throw the alligator in the pond, you better hope there is not any fish in that pond that the above mentiond people cherish, ....if there is ....your arse is going to jail.
mike.
p.s.....can some one send some really good rollers to one or two of those above mentiond big shots,maybe get em hooked ?.
Last Edited by on May 23, 2008 7:36 PM
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Ty Coleman
330 posts
May 23, 2008
7:42 PM
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I can see Oprah standing under a kit already.lmao
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Santandercol
2543 posts
May 23, 2008
7:49 PM
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Tony,
The article came from a member of our club BCRC who brought it over from earls list.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Electric-man
1621 posts
May 23, 2008
7:50 PM
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Well, I guess that I owe Paul and the forum an appology for the personal attack! I did a little moderating to my own post! I did break the policy and I'm no exception!
I was a little excited when I saw the article, I am a little offended that "we" shot it full of holes!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Santandercol
2546 posts
May 24, 2008
5:50 AM
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Val,
HAH!!!That's funny my post got YOU apologizing!We forgive ya.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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ezeedad
567 posts
May 24, 2008
9:37 AM
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Val,
Was that an attack..?? You're such a joker at times. I actually chuckled when I read your response.. But then today I saw that you edited your comment about me having a good point. Hmmm...
Anyways, there already is a predator abatement permit. I don't know all the details, but as far as I understand, it can apply to nuisance hawks.
The guys were talking about it after the legal problems.
Paul G
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Electric-man
1623 posts
May 24, 2008
10:14 AM
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Sometimes, I forget to take my "medication"!!!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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birdman
581 posts
May 24, 2008
10:49 AM
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George, you're right! That whole area had TONS of birds and other wildlife. It was like being on Safari in Africa.
I grew up in Norwalk/Santa Fe Springs and the San Gabriel River bed was our playground. Full of every kind of bird, reptile, amphibian, rodent, fish, butterfly, insect, etc... Not so much anymore though.
You mentioned Blue Jays, but do you also remember all of the Red Winged blackbirds and Meadowlarks? I haven't seen a red winged blackbird for over 20 years. I've only seen 2 Meadowlarks in the past 25 years. What happened to all those spotted doves that looked like someone sprinkled glitter all over their necks? How about the flocks of Cedar Waxwings? How about all of the different finches? And on and on.....
I better quit now, it's making me sad thinking about the good old days when every day outdoors was a new wildlife adventure.
Russ
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ezeedad
568 posts
May 24, 2008
1:08 PM
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Russ,
You just reminded me that I haven't seen cedar waxwings in years. Meadowlarks even longer... But I thought the reason for those and red-winged black birds going from my area was habitat loss..
Really that's the big reason... nobody wants to say it.. but it has a lot to do with human population growtn. More and more humans are using up the resources and prime real estate... Birds can migrate, but they need different places to go to
Gomez
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Scott
651 posts
May 24, 2008
1:45 PM
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I don't buy it paul, fairly small plots are plowed under for development and then what , tree's and plants are planted, along with a fairly reliable water source.
There is water where there never was before, along with food sources ect.
I look around me here, once the rain quits there is very little water sources other than what I provide, plus I provide food for all the wild birds around me where there was none, how many do that ? countless and that doesn't include those that unknowanly do it, along with agriculture ect.
As for species disapearing or in trouble, it sure is funny that if it isn't big enough to be carried off by a Cooper the population is exploding, the Turkey population, Raptor,vulture, Geese & Ducks ect. populations have exploded.
while anything that fits into talons have dwindled including the quail populations here localy.
Have humans say on the West Coast affected the natual cycle ? Hell yea,but not all negative .
Look at S. Ca. , that is frigging desert or at the very least very arid and desert,man has made it into an oasis where there are far more raptors and smaller prey than what could ever be in that natual envirement, how can there be natual order when there are so many un natual envirements ?.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 24, 2008 1:50 PM
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ezeedad
569 posts
May 24, 2008
3:37 PM
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Scott,
These birds have lived in association with a set of other species for tens of thousands of years. There has been a HUGE change in the environment. Not only the invasion of non-native spesies of birds, but plants. In fact, the non-native plants are usually not good food sources for native birds.
Also, all along their migratory routes, their resting and feeding stops have been destroyed. They have had it rough!
This has been going on for about two hundred years now.
Paul G
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SSLOFTS
2 posts
May 29, 2008
10:58 AM
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Sorry to bring up an older post,but I've been trying to join the message board for a while and it just went through.I fly rollers and hate to lose them to hawks,but I have to say it really sounds like the guy who wrote this article is just voicing his own personal opinion.I'm also a falconer and I'm aware of alot the population studies myself.Ezeedad,did a VERY good just explaining alot of the facts,so I won't go any farther.Oh and Ducks-N-Rollers,I think the only way we'll get Oprah involved with rollers is if we deep fry her a kit or two. LOL!!!!
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ezeedad
582 posts
May 29, 2008
11:52 AM
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Thanks SS...
Paul G
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Velo99
1804 posts
May 29, 2008
4:35 PM
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For an interesting read go to the APHIS site and check the numbers from say right when DDT was banned until 1999. If I remember correctly after the resurgence of the BOP there were 3000 more in the count than pre DDT.
Paul I realise there is a lot of pressure put on the songbirds by the invasive species. Scott brought out a good point as well. I immediatley thought of the 135 golf courses in the Phoenix area.Green grass,growing trees and lots of water. Acres and acres of it. Bird paradise.
I see a lot of people feeding the birds and buying asnd building birdhouses, I have marten houses. With the avian flu hitting so hard a few years ago the songbirds have taken a beating. They could be set up the the knockout combo unless we,albeit selfserving,get the word out.Educate the public on the proper birdhouse and sizes to allow the proper birds to use the birdhouse.
Ty it aint all about our rollers cuz the regular people think all pigeon guys are a little off. You dont have to say anything about them,just the fact you love birds.
We are BIRDMEN!!!
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
___ .._____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__20___()_)\__\
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SSLOFTS
4 posts
May 30, 2008
6:45 AM
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Predator species follow prey poulations,they do not dictate them.
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Santandercol
2553 posts
May 30, 2008
7:15 AM
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Hey Nick.Welcome over here on RPDC!!
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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SSLOFTS
7 posts
May 30, 2008
7:35 AM
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Hi Kel,Thanks,I tried to use the same name(sharpshooter) but I couldn't get it register here.
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maxspin
241 posts
May 30, 2008
9:31 AM
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SSLOFTS,
I have said it before, and I'll say it again.
When the "natural / wild" prey decreased the predator will turn to domestic animals for food.
Anyone besides me seen a sharp increase in attacks on domestic birds in the past few years?
The biggest BOP issue at my loft is the Peregrine Falcon. The issue that I have is that the raptor folks are still building artificial nest sites on buildings. This is bringing the predator into a non-traditional nest location where they are even more likely to attack domestic birds. They are still doing this with the claim that the peregrine falcon needs our help to survive.
THIS IS THE MIND SET THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE!
Peregrine falcon numbers are now over the Fish and Wildlife historical numbers, even though prey bird numbers are significantly down.
If Predator species follow prey…..
What are they eating…….
Keith
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ezeedad
584 posts
May 30, 2008
10:43 AM
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Keith,
What you say about peregrines oon buildings is very correct.. I know too well from personal experience. I also found this about Missouri... Anybody on this site from Missouri..??
"The Once-rare Peregrine Takes to Missouri Skyscrapers."
"In recent years, more and more Missourians are having the chance to witness this bird's thrilling flight. Throughout most of this century, breeding falcons were not found in Missouri. But now, the birds are staying around, and some lucky residents of our state's three largest cities can see them daily. The reason? One of the most successful wildlife restoration efforts ever conducted."
"After some early failures with birds released into natural habitats, biologists discovered that cities seemed optimum environments for newly flying, inexperienced youngsters. Concrete jungles harbor few great horned owls-predators of young peregrines-and urban pigeons and starlings make suitable prey. Skyscrapers offer perching and nesting sites resembling cliffs. If peregrine falcons ever are to become reestablished as breeders in natural habitat, it will probably be the result of birds pioneering outward from their newly established, urban populations.
"Biologists "hack" peregrine falcons by placing three- to four week old birds that have been produced by captive pairs into enclosed boxes on buildings in suitable cities. By about six weeks of age, the young birds have grown their flight feathers and are set free. Because this is where they first flew, the birds imprint on the locale and will tend to use it for nesting when they mature."
http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/1999/01/40.htm
Paul G
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maxspin
242 posts
May 30, 2008
1:05 PM
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Peregrine Watch 2008
Just what every city needs!!!
Hey look there's a flock of pigeons now! Ooooow Ahhhhhhh!!!
http://www.audubonportland.org/events/peregrinewatch
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ezeedad
585 posts
May 30, 2008
1:54 PM
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Yeah Keith,
We have to realize that the Peregrine is the poster child for conservation.. It is also surely one of the biggest success stories.
..........0000000000..............
Birmingham Peregrines
High above the city of Birmingham, peregrine falcons are flying and hunting at speeds of up to 217 miles an hour.
Birmingham is home to not one, but three pairs of peregrines, and when these amazing birds of prey are not hunting, spot them perching on some of the city's tallest buildings.
Join us at the viewpoint, where telescopes and binoculars will get you closer to these amazing birds.
You'll find our friendly staff and volunteers at a number of free viewpoints around Birmingham where they'll be on hand to tell you more about peregrines and the other varied and fascinating birdlife that make this city their home.
http://www.rspb.org.uk/brilliant/sites/birmingham/index.asp
Gomez
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