SpinCityRollers
145 posts
May 26, 2008
10:27 PM
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Sometimes I get very discourage watching all these scores when I compete It make me wonder is it worth the time the frequency beats Quality everytime. I believe this is just the way comp goes. We sacrafice quality spin for activity. Do we count everything that turnover or do we count the ones that commit to the spin do we deduct for the ones that dont finish or sometimes start correctly. Do we have the right judging method for these birds because the descrepancy in scoring from region to region and round to round are so off why is that.
Performance (Is more like a drag car)Cant go long but can give quiet a show ( need mine to go 25 min thats it!!!)
Competion more like Nascar (you go to fast they crash (burn out)
I believe there is a certain medium to pigeons. They can be too deep to frequent and too fast for comp (if all of these attributes are present at the same time)
And remember you still have to get them to break together over and over again for twenty min twice a min 40-50 ft and recover set up and go again and go big 10 or more . this is what makes it so hard to be consistant not metioning the bop and then we try to fix the birds with or stragety and tweeking we atempt before every fly which usually really screwes everything up
Am I really behind that much or are the bird getting better 1.7 and up 1500 plus scores
every 46 seconds 16.5 birds
Please be open I would like to hear
Feedback2008
Last Edited by on May 26, 2008 10:38 PM
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wishiwon2
60 posts
May 27, 2008
10:28 AM
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2 comments;
1) I dont think it should be said that frequency beats quality. That implies that you cannot have frequency and quality together. They are not mutually exclusive of each other. I have seen a team of lesser avg quality beat a tem of higher avg quality. But the team of lower Q worked their asses off and the other team coasted. So how do you decide which is the better team that day? It isnt a competition for stock selection. For my self, I dont want to sit for half an hour to see a just few breaks, high quality or not. I also want to see a team be of as superior quality as possible. I dont favor activity just for the sake of action. They need to be as good quality as possible and then they have to go to work and put on an entertaining show. For me, depth is often the most over-rated factor. As long as birds are regularly pulling off 20-30 footers im content. It is neat to see good Q 50-60 footers, but too often ppl get impressed by the depth and overlook inferior traits.
2) Judging. I dont think our system of judging broken. It just gets applied differently based on each judges ideal, physical perceptive abilities and preconceived notions. One thing I hear about and disagree with is those who state that birds which exhibit minor faults such as exiting backwards, or a bobble in the roll etc. shouldnt be scored. When judging a team, especially a team that breaks well together, you cannot scrutinize each individual bird in detail and "take in" the whole of the break. You have to evaluate a 'general impression' of what the average of the break was. If you are trying to watch individual birds in a break, you are missing the rest. A break lasts 1-3 secs. Our eyes and brains cannot handle the input of say 10-12 birds rolling together in 3 sec and still make a detailed evaluation of each and every bird in the break.
There may be birds that 'stick out' from the team as superior or detractors. Those birds will affect the general impression made on a judge for good or bad. That is the responsibility of the team manager as he builds his team to be aware of those 'stand out' type of individuals.
Personally I do think we as a roller hobby have gotten carried away with ourselves in some of the scoring. That doesnt mean I dont believe its possible, just that I dont think it is actually happening as frequently as it is reported. Real high multipliers (1.7, 1.8 ...) are or should be very rare, as they represent the average of those birds that rolled in the breaks. To have that high an average means there must have been several 2.0's to pull the average up. Not that it couldnt happen, just its improbable and likely isnt happenening as much as gets claimed. Many fanciers inour sport have applied ALOT of dedicated time towards fine tuning their teams and the performances of them to fit the scoring system used. Hopefully we have progressed as a whole, if not maybe we need to re-evaluate our choices and elevate our standards.
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colinb
90 posts
May 27, 2008
1:16 PM
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use the English rules and u will end up with clean breaks and hi quality fast spinning birds dish cloths and rags do not get scored
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Ballrollers
1304 posts
May 27, 2008
1:25 PM
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jim
I think I read a statement that some English fancier is using his Red Badges in competition and doing well with them. If I am correct, Red Badges are a family/breed of Tumbler pigeon. So Somebody may have stolen your idea already :)
Cliff
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W@yne
1353 posts
May 27, 2008
1:35 PM
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Ciff
You are getting confused with our posts. No one in the UK Flys badges at competition level in any of our roller comps in the UK nor would we have any breed flying in our competitions that ain't a true Birmingham roller.
Red badges are a different breed that fly in there own circles over here in the UK.
Cliff give us a break man are you serious???
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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www.waynegrovesrollers.piczo.com
Last Edited by on May 27, 2008 1:41 PM
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Oldfart
686 posts
May 27, 2008
2:53 PM
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One, read the posting policy, two after reading, apoligise!
Thom
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Ballrollers
1306 posts
May 27, 2008
5:24 PM
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Wayne
I was asking a question "If I am correct." I have no idea what you guys do with your pigeons. I opened my question with" I Think." You do have red badges? You do have competitions with them? How deep are the red badges? Red badges are a flying breed of tumbler? I did not say they were used in the WC did I? Jim made a comment about using tumblers in the WC. I was commenting to Jim. I even went so far as to put a smiley face at the end, meaning it was meant in jest and NO I WAS NOT SERIOUS. But you sure are. Lighten up. man! The US humor is a strange beast.....as is the English humor. No harm done.
So far, all our weather people still keep their clothes on. :) I like you guys' ideas on some things!
Cliff
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fhtfire
1385 posts
May 27, 2008
6:10 PM
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I have to agree with you on some of the scores. Again, this is the first sport that I have seen where there is a judge and they are all over the board when it comes to judging. Most other sport...or judges or referees are certified through a sactioned governing body or trained by the organization to judge....then you get a patch or something that says your certified.....If you are a new judge..the last part of your training is actually judging an event while being watched by a seaonsed judge and they are the final say if you are ready......
Don't get me wrong...I have seen uncertified judges and small local sporting events...you kind of compare those to our club flies....but a National or World fly...we should have certified judges....So everyone is seeing the same things...or close to it.
Training can be done too...have a committee write a training packet...on some of the rules...have a definition next to the rule or even photos...to tell what is meant by the rule and a photo of what is acceptable. You could have training sessions in certain areas...or even use a day at the National convention to become a certified judge if you want.....the way the rules are written with no clear cut definitions...then most judges just shoot from the hip and judge the way they FEEL it should be....when true judges keep the FEEL out of it and follow the letter of the law...what do you think would happen if in lets say gymnastics.....4 judges give 9-9.8 and then one judge give a 7...there would be some eyebrows raised.....or a basketball ref that calls fouls over and over that are not fouls....anyway...it is what it is and always will be if there is no training..Knowledge is power..
rock and ROLL
Pau
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Velo99
1798 posts
May 27, 2008
6:29 PM
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Paul,
When JV was here I saw him sitting down readng thru the rules and once just kinda zoning. I relized later he was getting his game face on. Thats what I like, a judge that gets mentally prepared to judge. Reading thru the rules gets it fresh in your mind,narrows the focus.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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W@yne
1354 posts
May 27, 2008
10:07 PM
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Cliff
Sorry i must of got my wires crossed no harm done bud.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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www.waynegrovesrollers.piczo.com
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