elopez
1441 posts
Jun 04, 2008
10:56 PM
|
How important is color when breeding your birds? I have been told it is very important and that it's not good to breed self to self or check to check?
Please share your experience.
----------
Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
|
Scott
716 posts
Jun 04, 2008
11:09 PM
|
Bummer,I've been doing it completly wrong on every pairing for years by that line of thought, I'm screwed,blued and tatood now.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 04, 2008 11:15 PM
|
elopez
1442 posts
Jun 04, 2008
11:18 PM
|
Scott LOL. In disagreeing with this, do you see any truth in Color playing a factor?
----------
Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
|
Scott
717 posts
Jun 05, 2008
6:03 AM
|
Efren, my stock is all blue cks and dark cks selfs, with the exception of two rec reds in stock.
But my rec reds are no weaker in charactor than the blues ,my A team is all blue drk & ck blu chk with two rec reds, it is about balancing charactor, not color.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 6:41 AM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1263 posts
Jun 05, 2008
6:22 AM
|
I have great results by Breeding the colors and factors mixed.
Such as a Red Bar Cock carrying Dilute to a Cream Bar Hen
A Blue Check Cock carrying Reduced to a reduced Blue Check hen.
I also like to mix the Pied gene in a lot of my rollers.I have always said that I thought the Pied gene and the Roll gene worked together.No proof of that just what I believe.
I have never had much luck with selfs of any type.I have been told because I don't raise many of them.Could be but by now what I have raised I should have seen some that would make me believe otherwise.LOL. David
|
glenn
125 posts
Jun 05, 2008
6:34 AM
|
Efern:
You walk right into this one...have fun....Glenn
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2586 posts
Jun 05, 2008
6:44 AM
|
Hey David, so in other words, you have not always bred toward the Birmingham Roller Standard when you performed these color pairings? LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2587 posts
Jun 05, 2008
6:52 AM
|
Hey Efren, if you are breeding towards the performance standard, color has no place in the decision.
If you pair a seldom bird (dark color) with a frequent bird (light color) with the intention of getting offspring that perform to the standard, you are breeding toward the standard.
You will get all colors that can be frequent or stiff/seldom. The end results, are based on the fancier understanding what specific birds will take him toward the standard or to maintain it.
"Your feed bill, your backyard, your legacy" by Tony Chavarria
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
J_Star
1615 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:01 AM
|
I do consider color balancing and size balancing when breeding. The last thing I want is a loft full of one color pigeons. As I pair birds together based on the five primary traits, color and size is also considered. I don’t want birds the size of crows and I don’t want them the size of finches either.
You should see the offspring that I have this year and last. They are the most beautiful I ever bred. Too bad I don’t keep them based on color only, therefore, the best performers will stay once matured based on my strict performance selection. One year I bred just about all of them blue bar. That was an eye opener for me. BTW, I don’t have any of those fancy color pigeons.
Jay
|
bman
580 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:21 AM
|
Let' see;
color
eye sign
keel
hard feather
soft feather
long primaries
short primarys
long cast
apple body
eye color
white (pied)
no white
grouse feet
clean legs
All not breeding to the standard which is
PERFORMANCE ONLY!!!!!!!!!!
LMAO..........sounds like everbody is guilty.
Sorry if I left anything out.lol
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2588 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:30 AM
|
Jay said:
"I do consider color balancing and size balancing when breeding..."
My Response:
Jay, you are singing my tune! LOL Selecting for proper size, proportion, feather, type, character, etc, are all ways of breeding toward the standard as they do contribute in some way to the roll.
This is what the new fanciers have to understand and work on in their stock. Good stock, bred toward the standard, can be ruined if the buying fancier does not make it HIS personal responsibility to understand the breed we call Birmingham Rollers.
The Birmingham Roller is a complicated animal which when finely bred is a joy to watch in the air...
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2589 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:33 AM
|
Hey Ron, read my last post in response to Jay, you will then be forced to make two lists from your 1 list.
But you are hitting the nail RIGHT ON THE HEAD! Good Job my friend!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
bman
581 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:39 AM
|
Tony, my point exactly. I think everyone either has or is looking for there own "recipe" to breed better spinners.
You for example are very intune to "type".
Everyone who has ever looked at my birds can pick out every ruby in the kit! My point is not everyone agrees on what it takes to acheive the end results although I think most everyone here agrees on what they should be.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
sippi
315 posts
Jun 05, 2008
7:45 AM
|
I breed best to best only. I dont look at size or color or anything else. I am building a family and firmly believe that nature will eliminate the unwanted characteristics over time. I am doing this with much fore thought and intentionally. It is also a work in progress and a theory that I am trying to prove. I have built families based on this before with other breeds and wish to try and prove it out on the Birm also.
One note is that all the best spinners seen to have good apple bodied form. Coincidence or nature taking its course. I will know in a few years and time is all I got.
Sippi
|
J_Star
1617 posts
Jun 05, 2008
8:01 AM
|
Ron,
All the stuff you mentioned in your post makes no difference in the breeding loft. If the cock and hen are compatible with each other considering the 7 traits (including color and size) then they will become mates. Hard feather, soft feather, eye color, muffed and what have you is just us fanciers making complicated science out of nothing.
Jay
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2591 posts
Jun 05, 2008
8:05 AM
|
Hey Ron, you are exactly correct, we are all looking for the right recipe or method to breed better rollers!
I know if I want to bake a chocolate cake, I don't put a brick in it. lol I know that if I want the roll, breeding to get grouse legged rollers will NOT help the bird roll better! :-)
There are many roads that will get you to Rome, but there is only one Rome!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2592 posts
Jun 05, 2008
8:11 AM
|
Hey Sippi, you are on the right track. Breeding best to best however, is much more than a simple saying, when and if you open that "book", you will see many factors/crossroads that can delay or speed your trip.
I like where you are headed! Keep us posted. Good Luck!
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
bman
582 posts
Jun 05, 2008
9:50 AM
|
Tony & J,
I am not talking about what goes in but what conmes out = end results. If all of your best rollers are apple bodied or grouse leg or white flights I think most people will start to make sure that is one of the ingredients.
Tony you your self have drawn correlations based on color.
ie; lavender hot, blue side taking a little longer to devolop etc. I think it is human nature to try and connect the dots. I not saying grouse legs are the reason they are better rollers but in someones family it MIGHT be linked to performance or any of the other traits.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
elopez
1443 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:38 AM
|
Tony/Scott,
So in your opinion color is no factor in breeding for performance. I hear when breeding for performance color does play a factor. Doesn't mean that I agree or disagree to this. This is why I asked to get everyone’s opinion and experience so I can come up with my own conclusions.
Thanks for everyones response.
----------
Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
|
quickspin
688 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:41 AM
|
Try it Efren and you will find out in your family if it will play a factor or not. I know it does on my family but don't know on yours.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
3757
785 posts
Jun 05, 2008
11:45 AM
|
Color has nothing to do with performance. Ask yourself what is color and you will see that it has nothing to do with the roll.
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2596 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:01 PM
|
Hey Ron,
correlation does not equal causation
Recognizing what I see as trends or possible correlations only help in the information gathering process. I don’t allow these kinds of observations to determine my pairings; I don’t say “well, this is a lavender so I guess I will put it on this lavender to get hotter birds”. If it were that easy, then breeding rollers would be easy.
My thinking is more like this, “what hen will best compliment this cock bird in producing youngsters toward the ideal? What do I know about these 2 birds in the air, on the perch and their background relationships to find the best compliment for it”? My goal is to breed for a complete and balanced Birmingham Roller.
When people ask me for lavenders I chuckle a little to myself as I explain that it is the entire family that is good, not just a color. Some people are looking for a magic bullet, and there are none.
I feel this last kit that I just broke up was probably my best kit I have ever flown. From this team, I stocked 7 birds from the 2006-breeding season. Of the seven, just 2 were lavenders (only lavenders in the team), the other 5 were red checks or blues. I would say these 5 non-lavenders are as good s if not better.
I never said the lavenders were any better, only that they seem to come in earlier and hotter than the others. Based on my observations, putting lavenders together will tend to produce hotter birds and with that, the challenges that represents.
I prefer a well-balanced bird with good expression, good roll, velocity, depth, control and type. My pairings are meant to reflect this list.
In my opinion, the mistake many of the in-experienced make is that they attribute correlation with causation. They will have to dig deeper into the birds than this.
Ron, like you said, it is human nature to try and connect the dots, but with rollers, the dots move when you go from bird to bird. LOL
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
JMUrbon
502 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:01 PM
|
Color to me is a non subject. The only thing that I can say hold true with my birds is there is dilute in them and the dilute sometimes is dangerously deep. I get plenty of speed,style,depth and frequency from my birds and I probably raise 50-60% self blacks. So self to self really is a non issue here. Joe Urbon
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
Scott
720 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:02 PM
|
(Tony/Scott,
So in your opinion color is no factor in breeding for performance. I hear when breeding for performance color does play a factor. Doesn't mean that I agree or disagree to this. This is why I asked to get everyone’s opinion and experience so I can come up with my own conclusions.)
Thanks for everyones response.
I didn't say that it doesn't play in as it most certainly does, even in my birds, it just isn't cut and dry accross the breed but more family related.
My birds are a good example as most my pairing are generation after generation after generation of self cks, then there is another 25 years of inbreeding/linebreeding the same way before mine, yet my birds don't have a reputation of being stiffs.
But even in my birds color or factor makes a huge difference as my birds carry both the smokey and dirty factor, the smokey is the softer side, I don't breed the dirty factored birds together as it will start going stiff on me.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
quickspin
689 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:05 PM
|
Why is it that if I breed together two Grizzle from my family they will be too frequent to stay with the kit? Come in to the roll at 2-4 months old. 3-4 times / minute
If I breed those same Grizzles with a blue check or dark check they are stable and come in to the roll 4-5 months. 1-2 times / minute
If I breed the two checks together the offspring come in to the roll real late 8-10 months. 1 a minute super fast and clean roll.
I been doing this color and error for 3 years now.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
3757
786 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:09 PM
|
That is the genetic makeup of those particular birds within that line. They could as well be checkers, reds etc but in my line the grizzles are stiffer than bees wax.
|
Scott
721 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:19 PM
|
Because the weaker charactor if following the grizzle, the checks that describe are strong charactor.
In reality one is probably a little too weak and the other a little too strong, or at least when smashed together,my parameters are narrower with by birds.
This is the classic example of color balancing,it doesn't work across the board though.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
quickspin
690 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:19 PM
|
Color is color that's it.
Is a Red Camaro faster than a Blue Camaro?
Depends on the motor and the driver. So color doens't play a factor but what is inside the color?
But if you have been breeding your whites selfs to be short or fast the whole time they will be that short and fast.
Now if you have some Dark Checks and you been breeding them to be frequent they will be frequent.
Now that is the key not the color but the performance from that color that was bred that way. So the best thing will be to cros the white with the check to breed offspring in between the two.
Now for some that already have been working with the same family for many years you have a stable family. So that means that color balancing might not be as important.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
sippi
319 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:22 PM
|
Another place people mistake color for quality or lack there of is that a certain pair is producing those same colored birds. I have a line of Orientals that when I get an Ember Bar cock he will be great. Some would link that to color. It just so happens that those same Ember Bar cocks have the same parent. So in reality it isnt the color it is the genes of the parents producing that color. I is easy to hunt dots to connect. Some are related but more so in a line than to a color.
Sippi
|
Scott
722 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:29 PM
|
No it is not the color or factor, it is what piggy backs the color or factor depending on the line.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2601 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:30 PM
|
Hey quickspin, so you have correlated just what to causation, that all grizzle-to-grizzle matings are fast and frequent or that that particular pair produces fast and frequent? Are the blues you breed to the grizzles the same family?
If I had your family, could I pair grizzles together and I will always get fast and frequent? Or is there more to it?
You have also correlated that dark checks to these grizzles stabilize the roll? Would this be just in your family or with any other family paired in this manner?
How do you know if it is not simply the bird’s gene-pool combining in various combinations? How many offspring and over how many generations have you made these observations in your birds?
I am not attacking, just asking because what you describe sounds pretty easy and straightforward. No real breeding challenge from how I interpret what you are saying in regards to it.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
quickspin
691 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:35 PM
|
This is on my family only. Like Laron said on his family the Grizzle are stiffer than a bee.
|
quickspin
692 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:38 PM
|
I have 8 pairs from the same family and 3 pairs are with a Grizzle cross to a Check. The original breeder also try it and he had the same results he had them for more than 10 years.
The Grizzle come from the same family I saw that on the pedigree they are closer related to 1 cock that was frequent which is a Red Mottle cross to a blue check.
Also I get 1 Grizzle and 1 Red WF or Blue check nest mate from the pairs. The Grizzle is the most frequent 2nd the Red 3rd the check. They are all nest mate I don't know why they should be the same.
----------
SALAS LOFT
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 12:46 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2603 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:42 PM
|
Hey quickspin, congratulations (or sorry?) the challenge of breeding is over for you! So what's next?
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
|
quickspin
693 posts
Jun 05, 2008
12:48 PM
|
The challenge is never over we learn every day from are mistakes.
The color is nothing is just a color but some times the genes are stronger in one color than the other that's all.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
Square
355 posts
Jun 05, 2008
1:02 PM
|
I have found that with my self checks and self blue bars, they tend to be not as frequent.. however I can have the nest mate that has only one white feather ether in the flights or under the tail and thease birds are frequent... it's wierd as now I can prettie much bank on it... as far as the bird being more frequent... but that's just my family of birds...
Square
----------
"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
|
elopez
1444 posts
Jun 05, 2008
2:01 PM
|
(But even in my birds color or factor makes a huge difference as my birds carry both the smokey and dirty factor, the smokey is the softer side, I don't breed the dirty factored birds together as it will start going stiff on me.)
How does one determine what is the softer side vs the harder side in their family of birds? Haven't had an issue with birds going stiff but then again haven't had too many over a year old. Want to make sure that I am considering this when breeding if this is to be considered.
What has happened in your birds when you breed the smokey birds together?
----------
Efren Lopez
SGVS
http://lopezloft22.bravehost.com/
|
Velo99
1816 posts
Jun 05, 2008
5:14 PM
|
Cant see the forest for the trees. LOL
Let me spell it out for you.
Flyer A has four pairs of birds. Three are Blue checks and the other is a red cock bird on a grizzle hen. Of course Flyer A is gonna get more birds in the blue check. He might breed some good birds and he might not. IT DEPENDS ON THE BREEDERS.
If the checkers are stiffs he will have stiff checkers, and at the same time the red/griz pair just COULD BE A SUPERIOR PAIR to the checks and he says MY grizzle birds are the best ones.
Color doesnt matter. The next guy might have red chekers and blue checkers. He is gonna throw some red and blue bars. IF THE PARENTS PRODUCE GOOD CHICKS, he might say, blue and red bars are the best birds he has.
Point is depending on what color is in the loft and what produces are what the superior birds are in ONE PARTICULAR loft. To make a blanket statement like griz is better just because they are griz is false and misleading. Watch the words you use and you`ll be happier and clearer in facts you state.
----------
V99
Straight up,no chaser.
___ .._____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__20___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2008 5:19 PM
|
Scott
723 posts
Jun 05, 2008
8:41 PM
|
(What has happened in your birds when you breed the smokey birds together?)
Nada, I breed a stable type family, like I said in a earlier post , my balancing parameters are pretty small.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
smoke747
1180 posts
Jun 05, 2008
10:50 PM
|
Tony,
your 2587 post is right on the money. good job
smoke747
----------
Keith London
ICRC
|