Joe K
8 posts
Jun 13, 2008
12:39 AM
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Im going to go out on a limb here, As of lately Im starting to think that a birds true worth cant really be evaluated until they have been flown 3 seasons.( Im talking kit birds not what they do in the breeding pen), and yes I know its hard to keep em all in the air for anything over the 1st year due to the BOPs. I am bringing this up due to having a few of what I would concider very good rollers, but upon the 3rd year of flying, a couple (hens) have basically deteriated from their previous years good kitting habits. I checked them for health, and all seems fine. So I guess what Im trying to say is that Im more convinced than I used to be that the birds have to be flown out! for more than 1 or 2 years to be trully concidered what will go into the breeding program. Ive asked others about this and some said no 1 year is enough for evaluation. I find myself continplating this ,,,,coments anyone?
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silent187
127 posts
Jun 13, 2008
10:44 AM
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imma disagree and say 1 year is good think about like this ok when were young we have alot of energy and we do things better and eventually the more u do it the better u get but then after u start getting older and u start to lose energy and just cant do things u could when younger thats how i see it!!!
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nicksiders
2834 posts
Jun 13, 2008
11:17 AM
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Joe,
I agree with most you have stated. I will not stock a bird until I have flown it for two seasons. You can recognize good performance before then, but there are those character issues that have to be evaluated and that takes awhile for them to prove.
---------- Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Hector Coya
164 posts
Jun 13, 2008
11:50 AM
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Due to the BOP, i think 1 year is all we have,sure it's nice to dream about the times when you could fly all year long, those days are gone. I lost over 75 to the hawk;s, i locked down 6 of my best rolling birds.after 5 months of lock down,2 whould not kit,2 rolled down every time i flew them,and only 2 whent back to the program and are flying at this time. I breed enough bird that by next year i can have 3 new kits. The birds ive put away after the first year have done fine in the breeding loft. Hector Coya- SGVS
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Scott
766 posts
Jun 13, 2008
5:07 PM
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(The birds ive put away after the first year have done fine in the breeding loft.)
Are you sure ?
(i locked down 6 of my best rolling birds.after 5 months of lock down,2 whould not kit,2 rolled down every time i flew them,and only 2 whent back to the program and are flying at this time.)
I'm not picking on you Hector, but I find the young stars are burning the candle at both ends, if you are loosing 75 a year you are nothing but a food trough,once they peg you as a food sourge your toast,quit feeding them for a bit and they find another. flying when we souldnt is tough, but we must learn not to.
---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 13, 2008 5:08 PM
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sippi
337 posts
Jun 13, 2008
5:43 PM
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Like gets like. If all you are going to fly a bird is one year then why try to breed birds that will fly longer. If on the other hand you are planning on flying them for two or more years you shouldnt breed on that hasnt been flown out.
A bird doesnt fully mature until it is nearly two years old performance wise. Me personally I want a stock bird to have proven itself for two years and make sure I am not breeding birds that are going to self destruct after thier first full moult.
I fly year round also and I may have a different outlook if I couldnt.
Sippi
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Scott
767 posts
Jun 13, 2008
6:21 PM
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(Like gets like. If all you are going to fly a bird is one year then why try to breed birds that will fly longer. )
Because of what you wrote below Sippi, there is no comparison between a young bird and a good mature bird, on top of it mature birds make it to maturity due to smarts and strong charactor
(A bird doesnt fully mature until it is nearly two years old performance wise.)
Scott
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PR_rollers
1202 posts
Jun 13, 2008
6:23 PM
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Silent to lose energy is one thing but to not kit is another,I don't care how old a bird is it should always kit. I have 2 1999 bird one is a Dick Stephen and one is a Jac cross that i bred from a Pensom that Joe Marlette gave me and i cross it with a Jac he gave me too, well the Dick S.bird never roll and the Jac never roll neither but they sure can kit up to this day .and now they both rolling with style after 8 years.why I kept them because they were perfect feeders and they train the youngster to trap and they had good temperament.so they earn their keep . Joe K I might agree with you ..I know some might not be able to hold a bird that long because of BOP. I have a 06 bird that i was going to breed the owner that gave it to me said don't fly it breed it...well i fly everything before it goes in as a stock bird well this bird just roll down not once but twice i rest it for a month and now it bumps coming in only ..it rolls fast tight a sight to look at ,it rolls 25 ft but it would never be bred .Now i was told by some one else toss the bumpers,I don't have time to be grabbing a bird every time I'm going to fly and tossing it. Its no fun for that bird and no fun for me..I just want to open the door for you and you come and do what you was bred to do.---------fly and roll baby,,..give me show..show time.. Ralph
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Hector Coya
165 posts
Jun 14, 2008
6:46 AM
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Most of my bird's come in at 3 months,some sooner, Most hold it some dont,dose it matter if they rolldown the second year? not realy by next year we want to breed more again anyway. Face it we are in a fast pace hoby thanks to the BOP,we have to change with the times,we cant breed birds that come in at 7 month thats when we lock down. Sure i agree that a bird should be flown for 2 or 3years if pocible,but that cant hapen here anymore,so we do what we can we what we have. Hector Coya -SGVS
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Scott
768 posts
Jun 14, 2008
8:09 AM
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Hector,that has to be some of the saddest reasoning that I have ever read and a perfect example of what not to do. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 14, 2008 8:22 AM
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JMUrbon
534 posts
Jun 14, 2008
9:00 AM
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WOW, That has got to be the strangest reasoning that I have come across in all of my years of raising rollers. As far as I am concerned if you loose 75 birds each year to preditors and rolldowns then your breeding season was wasted. You truely dont have the love for these birds that I do. I wont just send them up to be slaughtered. I also think that if you get more than a couple roll downs each season then your season was also a dissapointment. JMHO but I think you need to take a long look at what you are truely trying to accomplish. Joe ---------- J.M.Urbon Lofts A Proven Family of Spinners http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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kcfirl
448 posts
Jun 14, 2008
9:04 AM
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Scott and Hector,
I think you may both be right. It is due to comging at the problem from 2 completely different perspectives.
Hector lives in a place where he rearely gets a day when the hawk/falcon does not terrorize him. If he flies the birds enough for them to develop, it seems he loses half of them. Therefore, he knows that if he gets 1 year with the birds, that is great. He breeds lots of heat so the birds he is flying roll early and develop and mature early.
Scott flies in a place where he has minimal hawk predation. He can count the birds he loses on both hands and can fly virtually all year with light predator pressure. His good kits are made up of old birds. Hectors kits are always young birds and I'm guessing he has to lock down immediately after the Fall fly if he wants to have anything left to fly in the WC.
I see this pattern developing across the country. In those places where hawk predation is heavy, the succesful guys tend toi fly hotter (Scott would say weak character) birds. In those places where hawk predation is light, guys don;t mind if it takjes 6-10 months for a bird to come on and want birds that keep it up for many years because they know they will still have them in their kits.
I say, to each his own abd develop a family that works for you under your specific conditions.
OK - now blast me. LOL
Regards,
Ken Firl
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Scott
770 posts
Jun 14, 2008
9:32 AM
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Ken, there are many succesful flyers down that way that don't breed like that, one thing that I have learned is that flying smart where the bops are concerned is critical,if you are just feeding them like that you created your own problem, and then you compound the problem HUGE by breeding such birds, on top of it is cruel and has no place in this sport. If I feed the bops coming through here it would be a constant onslaught also,I know because it has plauged me before, I just refuse to do it. I had a flyer not far from me, in fact I could see his kit on a good day and his roof top in the distance when the leaves were off the tree's. He was singing the same toon, it was like he lived in another world, what did he do different ? what he did was just keep sending birds to thier slaughter and was nothing but a food trough. Guys breed over cooked birds because it is easy and they don't know any better, the hawks have nothing to do with it and is just an excuse, a stable bird is far less likly to get ate. As for my birds Ken, the bulk come in at the 5-6 mo. range. But I do find that some of my best show just enough potential to keep around , only to really polish at around 18 mo , such birds have learned to dodge the bops and know when to shut down the roll, unstable birds on a whole don't, I might add that if they arent showing this potential much past the 7 mo mark it isn't coming. And I also get some of those young stars,funny it is rare that they are still around in the second season though. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 14, 2008 10:36 AM
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Hector Coya
167 posts
Jun 14, 2008
11:37 AM
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Scott It's easy for people to talk when they dont live in a area like mine,you mentioned ,when the BOP pas through,let me tell you they dont pas through here,they live here.we have hawks all year long and about 1 per 4 block radius.if we have to breed 6 month wonders just to be competative,thats what we have to do. ther was guys here that locked down in winter and the W/C preleminarys are in April,by the time they had the birds in condition more tham half where gone to the Hawks anyway. Scott,you dont need to put down people for doing things diferent not all have the loxury of haveing Hawks passing through. Hector Coya
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Scott
772 posts
Jun 14, 2008
11:41 AM
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Actualy Hector, my hope was that you would learn something,and I'm sure that your area is loaded with them. You feed them and their young well and make it easy by breeding those type of birds,you are raising more than just pigeons. You will never be competitive raising such birds, it just won't happen,If I ever had to resort to that kind of thinking I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. Personly I think that kind of thinking should get someone black balled from the sport, there is just no excuse for it. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 14, 2008 12:21 PM
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nicksiders
2835 posts
Jun 14, 2008
6:10 PM
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The reason why they (BOP) stay in your area is that you have trained them to. You kept flying on the same schedule day after day until they just stayed and enjoyed. Why would they move through? You gave them no reason to. There are other flyers in your area that don't have your problems. You got to find out what they do and don't do.
You can fly around the BOP. I know I will get a bunch of "ah, horse shit" from many, but there are those who do it. They fly smart and they live near you. ---------- Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jun 14, 2008 6:11 PM
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Oldfart
708 posts
Jun 14, 2008
6:27 PM
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I absolutly agree with Scott and Nick, I see hawks everyday, I have lost birds, but not many. Why? because I change fly times, lock down for different lengths of times when hit, and fly smaller kits of birds! The B.O.P. is a creature, not very smart, it learns by repetition, change your habits and you disrupt it's learning curve. I hate losing a bird, it's one of my children but they must fly, otherwise why have them! You can control loses, don't just open the door and ring the lunch bell! Think about what you are doing. I also think that to be able to judge a bird it must be at least two or possible three years old.
Thom
Last Edited by on Jun 14, 2008 6:29 PM
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smoke747
1212 posts
Jun 14, 2008
6:54 PM
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Hector I get hammered also. I breed my birds to start performing at 3 - 5 months with short spins of 5 - 15' only. They usually hold this depth for a while. My best birds starting coming in at about 5 months and really get good around 9 months and get better the next season. i really breed my birds for the following season.
smoke747 ---------- Keith London ICRC
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gabe454
1027 posts
Jun 14, 2008
7:11 PM
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I agree with you hector ---------- 454 TRIPLE "G" LOFT L.P.R.C
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Hector Coya
168 posts
Jun 14, 2008
7:13 PM
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If you guys read my first post,i said i do agree that we should fly a bird 2 to 3 years,i never disagreed with that,i just know that in SOME areas thats nearly impocible. Ive tryed holding them in for weeks at a time ,that only works for 1 day at best. All im saying is some areas have the luxurie of flying all year,i dont and there is no flying smart about it,These hawks dont stay becouse i feed them,they stay becouse they where bred in captivity,and where planted here byour GOV, they have no Migratory instincts. My opinion,Hector Coya
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Hector Coya
169 posts
Jun 14, 2008
7:14 PM
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Thanks Gabe, these guys think they can wish the hawks away. Hector Coya
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gabe454
1029 posts
Jun 14, 2008
9:37 PM
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They must be special! ---------- 454 TRIPLE "G" LOFT L.P.R.C
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katyroller
235 posts
Jun 15, 2008
11:02 AM
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Hector, I know where you are coming from as far as the BOP's and having to breed early developing birds. I flew birds in SoCal during the 90's and had resident Coopers back then. I didn't lose alot of birds but I did lose birds year round. I now live in Texas and have a pair of resident Coopers' but have never lost a bird. Between BOP's being re-introduced, over population and global warming, I think alot of us are going to eventually have year round BOP issues.
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Hector Coya
170 posts
Jun 15, 2008
1:22 PM
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On any given day,in fact on any given hour,i can go in my back yard,look up and within a few minutes spot a redtail or cooper,a falcon only once a day, Hector Coya
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Scott
783 posts
Jun 15, 2008
3:29 PM
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That is exactly my point Hector, so can I see a bop 365 days a year, I have redtails feeding young within site of my loft right now and can I can hear them from inside of my house,thier daytime roost is on a electrical tower 40 yards from the back of my loft and they have a birds eye view of my loft. The Type of pigeons that you talk about that you "think" that you have to breed is what falls easy prey to them, stable birds out smart them, the boneheads don't,luckily I concentrate on stable pigeons and breed very few unstable birds so it doesn't become an endless cycle.. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2008 8:27 PM
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Scott
786 posts
Jun 15, 2008
6:54 PM
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PS Where it gets real tricky with the RedTails is getting youngsters on the wing around here. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
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fhtfire
1402 posts
Jun 15, 2008
7:48 PM
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I agree with the feeding the hawks....if you are feeding them they will stay....then they feed there young and then they stay and so on. I had a rough time last year with BOP..is was like Pear Harbor when I opened the door...coopers everywhere....Hell..Scott and Ken witnessed a Falcon hitting them up high and the birds that split to come low then got hit by a Coopers...and this was on a Fall Fly comp day....what did I do....I really studied the hawks like I do my pigeons..
The hawks would hit hard in the early moring...we are hungry just like them in the morning....about mid morning...I could fly.....they also hit in the late afternoon...but in the mid day it was ok...I also rotated my fly times...never to fly at the same time...and if I got hit...I locked down for a week...if I got hit again..then 10 days...and so on.
I also found that before a storm and after a storm NEVER FLY...they know from instinct when a storm is coming...and they would hunt hard...then when the storm hits..they sit in a tree and get pummled by rain...then when there is a break in the weather..boy we want to fly..and guess what...they want to eat and they are hungrier then ever...
Guess what....I have not been hit by a hawk or a falcon since Feb.......and before that after paying attention......it was few and far in between...guess what they moved on because the food source stopped.
Man animals are creatures of habit...they will come back over and over until the food is gone and they move on...there are two ways to control animals...food and sex....control the food..you control the animal...why do you think tigers jump through hoops...food...rollers trap...food.....dogs learn to hunt...food.....keep a male from getting all crazy..keep the females away..that simple...
Of course your BOP are staying around...you are feeding them....that is a no brainer...if you contacted all your pigeon buddies in your area that you know of...and tell them that you all want to do an experiment...EVERYONE close to you....LOCK DOWN YOUR BIRDS FOR 1 month and see what happens...no flying at all...or hell make it 2 months....you WILL see a change...because one..they will find another food source...or hunt other birds....or leave the area....then rotate fly times...this plan will work real good in an urban area...because I bet you are close to the only real food source..
rock and ROLL
Paul
Starve them..they are teatering on death anyway....and most of the BOP raised in your area...will only know how to hunt for easy pickings and they will die of starvation becuase they never really learned to hunt hard...this is coming from a Raptor expert that I talked too..
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fhtfire
1404 posts
Jun 15, 2008
8:33 PM
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Hector,
What my Raptor friend has stated..you are totally what he is talking about...feeding the raptors...not locking down...the are everywhere....so what do you do...BREED more birds....then you breed birds that come in hot and early..why..for our enjoyment...the hot rollers and dumb rollers like scott stated they are easy pickings....young birds on the loft...put up a sign that says "eat at Joe's"....the BOP will come....All the reasons that you gave are the reasons my buddy said we are killing our own hobby by flying and feeding....Breed more birds....feed from hawks...make more baby hawks....more hawks around your loft..there nesting territory is 1 mile in every direction from a nest....and coopers families stay close together..meaning the sons and daughters are allowed in the territory....or close to it...so all of your coopers in your area are most likely related....why are there so many related...well...you feed them....He also stated that when they are real healthy they have witnessed nests with up to 6 eggs and it is usually 3-4 in the wild...and only one young will survive in the wild...he has witnessed in areas with a good food source that up to 4-5 birds will hatch and survive...but the hunting skills are not as good because of the easy pickings...so again..I can't say it enough...Have EVERYONE in your area that you know of....lock down for an extended period of time...they nest from March-June...the birds are full grown and hunt on there own in about 2 months...anyway...just some info..
One article that I have read is that Coopers are a "forest" raptor...meaning they need the cover of trees to hunt...but this line got me...."they have adapted very well to urban areas do to the large abundance of food, mainly Pigeons" Wow imagine that.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jun 15, 2008 8:36 PM
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J_Star
1624 posts
Jun 16, 2008
6:37 AM
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It is easy to blame the flyers for feeding the hawks and it is easy to say locking them will help the hawks not form a habit. It is not the flyers who are creating this problem; they are just helping the situation.
I noticed in a residential block, you will find several, if not dozens, households feeding wild birds and they have setup elaborate feeding troughs for wild birds. The hawks know everyone of them in town and they are frequent visitors. They are the biggest source of the hawks’ problem. Even a source of bring unwanted cats and rodents.
You can talk flyers not to fly and lock up for an extended period of times, but you will never be able to reason with the rest of town not to feed wild birds. Hawks will never leave as long as the food source is there, whether pigeons or song birds, Robins, Starlings, sparrows, black birds or what have you.
In summer months, I don’t have problems with resident hawks. They tend to leave the pigeons a lone. They are frequent visitors to bird feeders. However, the end of fall and winter, they go after pigeons for the bigger meal and fatty meet to sustain the harsh environment.
Falcons on the other hand are a different species of their own. They don’t hunt close to the ground and between houses. They don’t rely on ambushing their pray. They love hunting in open skies. The higher in the sky the better. We know that our birds when they are chased by a predator they sky out and that is where the falcon wants them. However, I noticed this year that my birds are older and wiser. When a falcon pops up on them from nowhere and chases a bird. The bird being chased will dive vertically as if he was falling from the sky zigg zagging down on occasion while being in pursuit to almost crashing to the ground. Then suddenly breaking out of the vertical decent and flying horizontal dashing between houses and trees to break the falcon speed and put him at disadvantage by taking away his agility. The falcon will rise again, in due time, to the open sky and give another chase but the result is the same dive. By then he is too tired to try a third and moves on. What I am trying to say is maybe we need to start breeding this trait in our good birds to combat falcons.
I read here that in California, Blue Jays are in decline. Blue Jays give warning screams when a hawk is a round. I never ever have seen POBs chasing Blue Jays. Have it occurred to you that their decline could’ve been on purpose and by design to help the POB prosper!!
I also heard that the song birds are in decline and no one is doing anything about it. The POBs are being blamed for that decline. Have it ever occurred to you maybe that is by design!! The POB population has reached the levels that the program for the wild life management to stop the extra ordinary funding. Creating another problem will insure continued funding and continued employment. Don’t you think!!
The problem with POB is a city wide not just pigeon flyers. Those bird lovers who feed the wild birds are also sickened when they see a hawks snatch one of the birds feeing every day. And some loves it. How can you reason with all!!
Jay
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fhtfire
1409 posts
Jun 16, 2008
8:24 AM
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Jay,
I was not saying that we are the cause of the increased numbers of hawks....My friend is saying that we are increasing the numbers around our lofts by feeding them. In certain areas that they are studying in the urban areas...the primary source of viddles is not songbirds...it is pigeons...commies and pigeon fanciers birds. The study even showed that pigeons are adapting..that most of the birds that were killed at a white patch between the tail and the back...and they have noticed over the years that a lot of birds are no longer carrying the white and they are switching back to grey...this study has been going on for like 10 years....and now they notice that the amount of pigeons being taken are declining...they think that the white helps the hawks focus or find a target...It may be the other way around...with the coloring...I may have it ass backwards....but the fact is that pigeons are adapting by changing feather color...anyway..this guy is a wealth of knowledge...and he IS NOT blaming pigeon guys for the increase in BOP overall....just the increase in there area because of feeding...trust me it is not the song birds they go after in the inner city...it is the roller guys that fly everyday..those are EASY pickings...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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black_hawk_down
125 posts
Jun 16, 2008
10:56 PM
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"What I am trying to say is maybe we need to start breeding this trait in our good birds to combat falcons."-J Star I' m with Jay on this one! matter of fact i think it's the only way out!-joe v.
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2008 10:56 PM
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kopetsa
873 posts
Jun 16, 2008
10:57 PM
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guys stop writing so much.. lol jk ---------- Andrew
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