pw_rollers
2 posts
Jun 28, 2008
3:19 PM
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Alright folks, here's the question of the day; At what point can you JUSTIFIABLY call the birds, in YOUR loft, YOUR family? I am tempted to create a multiple choice list here, however, I will refrain because it might "dumb down" the question.
However, for the sake of expediency, I will offer some things to think about when answering; Like, 1)the length of time it takes to establish a family; 2)the maximum number of birds, from various gene pools, that can realistically be introduced to start your family; and, 3)the process of selection utilized to sustain your family over the years.
I look forward to your answers and a lively discussion.
PW
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kopetsa
1034 posts
Jun 28, 2008
3:34 PM
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Welcome PW.. where yah from?
As soon as I take two birds and put them together on my own.. The babies are my strain.. :) So a Family!
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Andrew
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2008 3:35 PM
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Spin City USA
59 posts
Jun 28, 2008
3:37 PM
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If you have six pair from master breeder X as soon as you mate them up however you want to, the off spring becomes yours, they may be off of X's line but you should take the credit good or bad. You have created a new family within that line of pigeons. Even if you leave them mated up the way that X recomends, and fly them the way he recomends, its still not the same as if X was doing it. Then when you start picking the new birds to stock you can only go by what YOU see every day. Even if X comes by, you see them every day and the decision is yours. Just my thought.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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pw_rollers
3 posts
Jun 28, 2008
4:47 PM
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Hey Andrew,
I am from "roller land" USA, Los Angeles, CA. LOL
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--pw
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kopetsa
1036 posts
Jun 28, 2008
4:48 PM
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Tonne of roller guys down there! :)
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Andrew
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Ty Coleman
419 posts
Jun 28, 2008
4:48 PM
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I agree with Jay
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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PR_rollers
1326 posts
Jun 28, 2008
6:05 PM
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"the process of selection utilized to sustain your family over the years".
---------I get a hold of new stock I start to select from the the ones that I think are worthy of being call true a Birmingham rollers.once those bands change with my name on it thats my family of bird now this is going to take a couple of years to build .They are call mine because once they are in my hands and if I mess them up you going to say they are mine not yours but if they do good you going to say they are yours right.so let it be mines from the get go..you can tell me how to fly them how to feed them how to mate them but who is to say I'm doing what you saying..so once I give someone birds and they leave my hands they are yours to build.
Ralph
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CVRC
123 posts
Jun 28, 2008
11:52 PM
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I'm with Jay on this one.
Cristian Castro
CM Loft
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Shadow
141 posts
Jun 29, 2008
12:28 AM
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When they are bred on my Premises with my ability( orlack of )being inputted on a daily basis,these can never be anything else but mine,with due recognition given for origin of lines,if they should be successful,and if not,no one wants to know anyway.
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 12:29 AM
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fhtfire
1419 posts
Jun 29, 2008
11:04 AM
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Here is my take....I DO NOT think that if you got birds from X and put them toghether that the first gen is yours....that blood line is from X ...now when you take the off spring...fly them out....pick YOUR breeders then everything out of that first gen is yours.....When I got my first RUBY Rollers and put them together...that firs Round is PURE ruby roller....you have done NOTHING but put birds together.....now when you fly out young....work to pick the best birds from the original pairs and and then breed those birds....that gen is yours.....because those were from birds you flew and picked....
Now if you cross two strains...that first gen is yours period...so basically everything in my loft that is crossed...the offspring is my "Flashover" strian.....you cross two strains.....or make the choices to your stock from birds YOU flew out then you are no longer on anybodies coat tails...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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smoke747
1237 posts
Jun 29, 2008
11:11 AM
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I agree fhtfire. plain and simple.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Hector Coya
193 posts
Jun 29, 2008
11:19 AM
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Why is it that so many bigenners are in such a hurry to put their name on their birds, get over it,let other people put your name on your birds,thats what counts.
Other people should mention your name on your birds more than yourself.Remember a fancy name for your family or your loft is not going to make your birds better.
Just my opinion
Hector Coya-SGVS
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smoke747
1239 posts
Jun 29, 2008
11:32 AM
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Hector it's because, when a beginner does well people always say that those are so and so's birds as if the beginner did nothing. They just want ot recognized in their efforts to breed top class spinners thats all.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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155
578 posts
Jun 29, 2008
11:39 AM
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good one Smoke747.....
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EVILLOFT'S
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Hector Coya
194 posts
Jun 29, 2008
12:07 PM
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I know what you mean Kieth,
But more recognition should be to a guy like Fred jakins that got alot of birds from everywhere,including Pet Shop birds,bred them ,and is putting up some awsome scores,its easyer to get good scores if you work off someone elses good family and dont do anything to change it.
Hector Coya-SGVS
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 12:11 PM
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smoke747
1244 posts
Jun 29, 2008
12:23 PM
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In that sense, you are correct, but guess what, everybody birds came from someone else, even Pensom's.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Scott
844 posts
Jun 29, 2008
1:12 PM
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Once you have someone elses birds in your hands the work has just began, each bird is an individule in it's own way and what you do in the stock loft generation after generation is what is going to define your family.
There is no such thing as getting a bunch of birds from someone and being on easy street.
I don't care where the birds came from, it is a building process,if it was that easy everyone would be flying great birds,
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
657 posts
Jun 29, 2008
4:29 PM
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In my opinion, once the breeder has produced a group of interrelated birds they can call it a family. Since most beginners start out with a hodgepodge of birds this may take a while.
On the other hand, I think a strain would be related birds bred entirely by the breeder for at least three generations. By that time, the birds should bear the "imprint" of that persons decisions, good or bad, and the breeder deserves full credit for the outcome.
Paul G
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rtwilliams
116 posts
Jun 29, 2008
5:13 PM
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I think that they are my birds when I get them. I can earn the recognition of having my own family with time as people refer to me, and my birds as top quality. If I screw them up no will care whose line they came from. Who know who the breeder of the birds that started Jac, Hoyle, or Campbell and Billings. I am sure a few do know but most of us probably don't.
Example.
My birds come from Brian Middaugh, they are from Scott Campbell and Ken Billings Line. Whose birds are they? I refer to them as Billing/Campbell birds because those guys have earned the rep, of quality birds. Even Brian (I hope you agree Brian) refers to them as his (Middaugh Family) Billing/Campbell line.
I refer to my birds as my family from the Billing/Campbell Line.
Some day when I win a couple fall fly's and a World cup (lol) then it will be my family. With people saying I got some Williams birds. Until then they are my family (that nobody cares about) from so and so's line.
Just my thoughts.
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RT Williams
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2008 5:28 PM
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crystalpalace
374 posts
Jun 29, 2008
10:50 PM
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Jay I was surprised what you wrote about a family of pigeons bred by a Master Breeder for many years. There are many others that direspect Master Breeders in the same way. It takes many years to create and breed and fly a family of your own. I know for a fact it can take at least five to ten years to create a new family. Fifteen to twenty years is more realistic calling a stud of rollers your own family. Then if you consistantly breed from the same family you purchased your only fooling yourself. If you crossed another family that is closely related or isnt then you can honestly say a new family was created. Selecting your own matings from another persons stud or family of rollers is a cop-out. Create your own family of pigeons like some real Master Breeders have done even if it takes many years. There are no shortcuts in the sport even though some people want fame and fortune in a short time. A breeder can keep the original stud of rollers he or she possed and breed them to his own likings. I think that is a good idea and they can keep them in a seprtate loft. Then a few birds from another great stud can be mated to that stud and with proper seleection a great new stud can be created. Then you are becoming a Master Breeder of a new stud of rollers. Your piers will notice what you have accomplished between five to ten years in the sport. Then in fifteen to twenty years more fanciers will take notice more than ever. Not every fancier can become a real Master Breeder in the sport but it is worth persuing. Some breeders are Master Breeders and Master Flyers and some never achieve both of these goals. Nevertheless it is well worth trying to succeed in all facets of the breed. I started breeding rollers in the nineteen fortees but got more involved with them in the late nineteen fiftees. I have bred several different roller families since that time from the original William Bill Pensom imports to the USA. My stock is spread out all over the country in prominent roller breeders lofts. I would like to say good luck to everyone that is interested in breeding competition rollers. As ever in the sport, Ray SSanchez. It can be accomplised if one has the dedication and inspiration.
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2008 9:54 PM
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Spin City USA
60 posts
Jun 30, 2008
3:35 PM
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Ray, I did not mean to disrespect any master breeder which is why I used X as a reference. I understand that it takes years and generations to create a top notch family of performers. Any family of livestock starts with two, thru careful breeding you set the type, performance, ect. We can go as deep as we want into the subject and go around in circles and come to the same conclusions. The new flyers in the sport are asking questions on this subject and every body is giving their input. I like Hectors thoughts, I think it's better to let some one else toot your horn for you cause it will sound better. You know how far we go back and I meant no dissrespect to any master breeder.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Scott
848 posts
Jun 30, 2008
4:00 PM
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What is a master breeder ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Spin City USA
62 posts
Jun 30, 2008
4:45 PM
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I think the NBRC has a master breeder program that recognizes members accomplishments. I think there are many master breeders out there who will never reach the NBRC standard, and they are not looking for it, but every body knows who they are. They are the ones committed to putting quality birds in the air. Those who can recognize talent know it when they see it.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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pw_rollers
13 posts
Jun 30, 2008
5:38 PM
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For the record folks this post was not started by someone just getting into the sport, I have been breeding & flying for the greater part of my life.
The impetus for this post was the regularity in which I was reading things like, "one of my families" or "my family consists of this, that, those, these..." as if it were possible to have this amalgamation of birds assembled into a family by virtue of them being in your loft.
This is certainly not the case, which i am sure most will agree once pushed on the issue. It takes a bit more than that and it usually takes quite a bit of time.
I recall having this same conversation many years ago when I thought that I had a family simply because they were my birds, because I fed them. A friend of mine laughed and said, "you're a good collector, and have a pretty good eye. but you are nowhere near having a family!"
Needless to say I was dumbfounded and was scrappy about it simply because I was to uninformed to know any better. Again, this was a long time AGO! LOL
And, I am sure that I don't have the only story like this one on this list.
When I recollected myself, and this did not happen overnight I went back and asked the same friend this question; "So how do I turn my birds into a family?" He looked at me and said, "do you really want me to answer that question" paused for a second, as if to create anticipation, and said the following; "Act as if your loft were on fire and run in and grab two birds, your best hen and cock, an go about the business of starting your family."
He was serious about culling everything else, which eventually I did.
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--pw
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Scott
851 posts
Jun 30, 2008
6:46 PM
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Jay, I don't think that the NBRC has any such program.
Pete, that is it exactly, finding a few key birds and running with it, it has nothing to do with just collecting pigeons and just simply breeding pigeons.
Once I figured this out and dumped everything except those few pigeons and a couple of sons and daughters out of them my program really took off.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2008 6:50 PM
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Spin City USA
63 posts
Jun 30, 2008
7:02 PM
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You are correct Scott, I checked and it's a master flyer program. My mistake.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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pw_rollers
14 posts
Jun 30, 2008
7:54 PM
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Scott,
I'm telling you, if there was one thing that I wish I could have heard earlier it would have been that. Once I buckled down, resited the urge to introduce yet another "champion," was the exact moment that I began to make progress.
Now I don't want folks to get me wrong on this post, you might not have two birds on the premises of the caliber needed to start a strong family, cause that in and of itself takes time. I like to call that the aquisition stage, you know, going around accessing what other folk have in comparison to your birds.
But, at some point, you have to make the decision that you got it, or you don't; use it if you got it; aquire the best that you can if you don't, and then get to work.
Sounds fast in a three paragraph post, can take decades in real life.
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--pw
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PR_rollers
1336 posts
Jun 30, 2008
8:20 PM
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Then if you consistently breed from the same family you purchased your only fooling yourself. If you crossed another family that is closely related or isn't then you can honestly say a new family was created.
----------Good post Ray..also PW good post,now I see it in a different point of view.you can't just take another breeders family and make it yours knowing it took many many years to be created from that person even if you mess it up you just mess up his family or did good with it you did great with his family.but until you put in the years and time in creating your own it ain't yours yet..
Ralph
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J_Star
1644 posts
Jul 01, 2008
5:21 AM
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I call the birds mine the minute they enter my loft. But I reference the strain from where I got them from.
You guys might disagree but think about it for a second. Tony sells the Rubys. So when someone buys a kit from him and breed them, then start selling them as ruby's. What would that do to Tony's reputation if the birds did not work out for the new breeder! And for his business...
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 01, 2008 5:21 AM
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pw_rollers
15 posts
Jul 01, 2008
11:54 AM
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PR,
The list to me is a place to learn, and teach. Nobody, I mean nobody, has the key to unlock the highly elusive, "How to Breed All Good One's, For Dummies" manual because it does not exist. What does exist, however, is our experiences, opinions, biases, highlight reels and shortcomings; all of which are valuable to us as individuals, but even more valuable to the sport when we share them.
My advice is simple; keep sharing; keep learning and keep teaching.
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--pw
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Spin City USA
64 posts
Jul 01, 2008
11:58 AM
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That is good advice for us all.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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