nicksiders
2930 posts
Jul 14, 2008
2:14 AM
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It is often said that milo grain is nothing more than just a filler. In an idle moment I began to think about what I am feeding and thier true values.
Milo -
11.3% Protien
71.3% Carbs
2.9% Fat
I would believe that milo is more than a filler grain. Having a high content of carbs tells me it is a high energy grain and possessing 11.3% protien can help my argument.
Wheat -
15.2% Protien
70.9% Carbs
1.8% Fat
Wheat contains a sizable amount more of protien; has similar amounts of carbs; and less fat. If you are mixing 50/50 milo and wheat you are getting -
13.2% Protien
71.1% Carbs
2.35% Fat
Add to this a vitimin and mineral suppliment thru the water supply I would believe you have a healthy diet going on.
For the winter I would add safflower to drive the fat content up to keep them warm. Many think corn is what should be added so I took a look at both.
Safflower -
15.6% Protien
16% Carbs
31.6% Fat
Corn(Maize) -
8.9% Protien
68.9% Carbs
3.9% Fat
The fat content is the reason for my decision to use safflower in the winter.....gotta have some fat to keep warm.
Now, this is in reference to kit birds only. I have a different mix for my breeders for a lot of reasons of which one is obvious.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2008 2:23 AM
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pat66
161 posts
Jul 14, 2008
3:20 AM
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Isnt safflower toxic in large doses?
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Pat
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J_Star
1658 posts
Jul 14, 2008
5:29 AM
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Nick,
It is not the fat that keeps them worm. Pigeons are cold blooded animals. Corn generates heat and keeps them cozy worm. In the winter they will gobble up the corn before any other grain first.
Wheat doesn’t have 15% protein, unless it is for human consumption. You are lucky if you get Wheat with 10% protein for animal feed.
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2675 posts
Jul 14, 2008
5:48 AM
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Hey Jay, birds are cold blooded? I don't think so...this is from http://reptilis.net/cold-blood.html:
So What are Mammals and Birds?
Mammals and birds keep their temperatures even by internal means such as shivering muscles to warm up and sweating to cool down. This internal way of keeping warm is called endothermy (Did you see that one coming?).
Course this doesn't mean that mammals and birds don't occasionally cheat. Lions, deer and other mammals spend a great deal of time in the shade when temperatures get too hot and there are birds species that spend their mornings basking on tree branches to soak up the heat, so endotherms thermoregulate as well, just not to the same extent.
Is there something else we all need to know??
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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J_Star
1659 posts
Jul 14, 2008
5:54 AM
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Why the pigeons in Alaska don't freeze to death? Why the pigeons in Arizona don't sweat to death and die from exhaustion?
Jay
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Santandercol
2751 posts
Jul 14, 2008
5:57 AM
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I thought it was the carbohydrates that keep them warm in winter.?therefore the corn is the highest for carbs.pigeons are warmblooded for sure that is one of my favourite things to feel their warmth when they are all over my hand at feeding time.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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showlow
51 posts
Jul 14, 2008
6:03 AM
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I just went to Puregrain web site and saw that this was a very accurate post on nutritional value of different feeds. I use 50/50 wheat and milo for kit birds when flying hard, and 15% grain mix when not flying. Very interesting to me. Corn in winter looks like a good choice, and my birds are definently warm blooded.
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nicksiders
2931 posts
Jul 14, 2008
6:11 AM
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Jay,
Reptiles are cold blooded as are amphibians. Birds and mammals are warm blooded.
The rest can be argued.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2008 6:12 AM
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Santandercol
2755 posts
Jul 14, 2008
6:15 AM
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Had a gal once that was coldblooded.Think she was a reptile.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2008 6:15 AM
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Santandercol
2756 posts
Jul 14, 2008
6:27 AM
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Popcorn and safflower are around the same price here-$45 per 50lbz.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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nicksiders
2934 posts
Jul 14, 2008
6:48 AM
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It fills the fat cells (adipose tissue) that help insulate the body. Fats are also an important energy source. When the body has used up the calories from carbohydrate, which occurs after the first 20 minutes of exercise, it begins to depend on the calories from fat.
Corn has very little fat and alot of carbohydrates; it also has very little protien in comparison to wheat, milo, and safflower.
So, give the corn to your neighbors and feed safflower.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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nicksiders
2935 posts
Jul 14, 2008
6:57 AM
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Pat,
Safflower oil can become toxic if allowed to become ransid. This is true with most grain or vegetable oils except for coconut oil and olive oil.
Safflower in seed form should be relatively safe because the seed contains vitamin E and that combats ransidity forming in the seed. It looses this vitamin during the process to produce oil.
Now I might be all wet on this; this is how I am remembering it. I know that I have fed safflower to my breeders for decades without a toxic problem. 25% of my breeder mix is safflower seed. May be that I have just been lucky.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2008 8:25 AM
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bman
597 posts
Jul 14, 2008
7:09 AM
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Nick, I haven't used corn in years,substitute it with safflower without any problems.And it gets pretty cold in Ohio.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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pat66
162 posts
Jul 14, 2008
8:27 AM
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Thanks for the info! I used it sparingly because of that reason but popcorn is cheaper around here!gotta save where you can,feed keeps going up and there is no end in sight yet!
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Pat
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2676 posts
Jul 14, 2008
8:48 AM
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Hey Jay, by your logic, when the temperatures outside are freezing, my pigeons should be freezing. But they don't. Why? Because their bodies produce more heat utilizing the food and fat storage within the body.
That is why my birds consume more food during winter as they need to produce more heat which comes from that food.
When the cold exceeds their bodies capacity to provide sufficient heat to ward off freezing, they will freeze. Just like people.
"Why the pigeons in Alaska don't freeze to death?" They do when the cold exceeds their bodies capacity to provide sufficient heat to ward off freezing, they will freeze.
Birds use air sacs and heavy panting to stay cool when hot. I think also heat may be dissipated through the legs.
Anyway, the whole process is called: "endothermy"
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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SSLOFTS
68 posts
Jul 14, 2008
9:09 AM
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The birds stay warm by eating foods that produce energy and heat.These foods contain carbs and fat.Protein is needed for growth and amino acids.Pigeons have a pretty high body temp,it's around 106 degrees,so they need quite a bit of carbs to stay warm when it's very cold out. Jay,if they were cold blooded they would die even faster in the cold or extreme heat. Kel,I might have married her sister! Nick
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nicksiders
2937 posts
Jul 14, 2008
9:21 AM
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LMAO - Nick
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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sippi
385 posts
Jul 14, 2008
10:55 AM
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Nick you provided some scientific sounding reasons for safflower. But the consumption and digestion of corn produces heat in the body. That is why the birds will go for it first in the winter. That said I have never fed safflower being in Florida we rarely get below 20 degrees. And then only over night. It would be interesting to put both out and see what they picked. Your birds will tell you what they need if you listen closely. They will definitely go for the corn in winter and down here dont eat it at all in the summer given a choice.
sippi
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Scott
908 posts
Jul 14, 2008
5:01 PM
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My birds can't do Wheat/Milo for long periods.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Windjammer Loft
352 posts
Jul 14, 2008
7:05 PM
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nicksiders.....Its the carbs that produce heat,therefor the corn would be the grain to feed for heat. The safflower has more protine and fats for sure but,in the winter if your not exercising your birds, say they are on lockdown all that protine and fats,turn into fat. Which is not good for the birds over a long period of time. I will say that the fat content in the safflower is very good for the Molt.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2008 7:11 PM
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Santandercol
2759 posts
Jul 14, 2008
10:28 PM
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Nick,
Good chance of that,she was from 4 Corners Arizona- Colorado,but she didn't have a sister.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Santandercol
2760 posts
Jul 14, 2008
10:29 PM
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Scott,
What happens if you feed yours too long on wheat/milo?And how long is too long?
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Scott
909 posts
Jul 14, 2008
10:56 PM
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Kelly, with hard flying after about 10-11 days quality starts going down the toilet fast as does condition.
And never do I feed my youngbirds such a weak feed, and I have tough birds.
Posts like this kind of bother me because new flyers start feeding this stuff to thier birds which are generaly young.
When it comes to feeds such as Molo they are great tools when applied properly, but you can also ruin birds with it.
As for Salffour, it is all I use for fat ,and my young birds get plenty of it,never do I use corn here as it isn't needed in my climate.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Mayo
4 posts
Jul 14, 2008
11:42 PM
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This was a great topic loved the info and input .
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nicksiders
2938 posts
Jul 14, 2008
11:57 PM
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I keep hearing that you are feeding your birds corn because of the carbohydrates. So, I broke it down for you:
Corn -
8.9% Protien
68.9% Carbohydrate
3.9% Fat
Pop Corn -
12.1% Protien
69.7 Carbohydrate
5.2% Fat
Milo -
11.3% Protien
71.3% Carbohydrate
2.9% Fat
Wheat -
15.2% Protien
70.9% Carbohydrate
1.8% Fat
So, if you are choosing corn based on the carbohydrate content to keep the birids warm in the winter...don't you see the holes in your reasoning? Did you take the time to read what the scientific people has stated. The carbohydrate energy last about 20 minutes and then the energy from fat kicks in....it is not me saying this. You have been told by someone in you past or present that told you corn gets them through in the winter and that is what you are going to believe come hell or high water. I am just asking you to think it over. Just don't take it on blind faith(hey, ain't that a band from the 60's with Steve Winwood - Blind Faith?)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2008 12:00 AM
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jim
135 posts
Jul 15, 2008
1:51 AM
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Hi
What is the Protien falue off peas.
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Jim "Mason"
http://www.freewebs.com/riaannaude/
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gotspin7
1460 posts
Jul 15, 2008
4:15 AM
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Good post Nick! Enjoyed it.
Scott, I agree.
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Sal Ortiz
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1915 posts
Jul 15, 2008
4:17 AM
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Thanks for the info papa........lol
I have too many fat cells..............lol
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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gotspin7
1463 posts
Jul 15, 2008
4:20 AM
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LOL, Rudy!
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Sal Ortiz
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J_Star
1660 posts
Jul 15, 2008
4:40 AM
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Sorry, I ment to say warm blooded.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2008 4:42 AM
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Santandercol
2764 posts
Jul 15, 2008
6:19 AM
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Thanks Scott.
Hey Jay,at least you made the thread more lively!!
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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nicksiders
2939 posts
Jul 15, 2008
8:22 AM
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jim,
Peas -
25.2% Protien
57.8% Carbs
1.1% Fat
Lots of protien and a good share of carbohydrate as well. Not much fat.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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birdman
618 posts
Jul 15, 2008
9:41 AM
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I let the birds tell me what they want. If they want corn they will readily eat it over safflower and vice versa. Same thing during breeding season when they choose austrian peas over maple peas or maple peas over austrian peas. They know what they need and will let me know.
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jim
137 posts
Jul 15, 2008
10:32 AM
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Hi Nicolas,
Thanks for all your help. Seems like all the feeds got carbohydrates so surely if they fly to fast you slow themn down by giving more protein? So what can you feed them to give them a protien shock? The feed with the most protein and least carbohydrates. I want them to rock and roll not fly and show. LOL
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Jim "Mason"
http://www.freewebs.com/riaannaude/
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nicksiders
2944 posts
Jul 15, 2008
3:13 PM
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Russ,
Do the birds tell you what they prefer before you put it in front of them or after?(LOL)
Do you feed a mix with several grains involved?
Nick
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Santandercol
2767 posts
Jul 16, 2008
7:34 AM
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I have 4 pair of breeders(Donek and Homers) who have all of a sudden stopped eating the milo in the mixed feed I give them.They used to leave the wheat till last now it is all eaten up and the milo is left uneaten.Anyone have any idea why this may be?My mix is 2 parts wheat to one part milo,one part safflower,one part peas,one popcorn and one pellets.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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fransrollers
17 posts
Apr 11, 2009
7:24 AM
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hi nick your post sounds intresting im new to this hoby and i like to learn could you please tell me what you feed your breeders ,ratio mix thanks fran
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j .wanless
715 posts
Apr 11, 2009
7:45 AM
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hi all
back to the main post milo.milo is good as a quick fix
and thats about all.theres lots of diffrent ways of feeding rollers but a lot depends on the family of birds + the area you live in.so my advice is experiment until you find the food that suites your birds.one of the most well known flyers in the uk a few years back + a good friend of mine BARRY SHACKLETON flew his birds on mainly milo + very little else.but his birds looked terrible feeding milo like he did causes brittle feathering .though barry done well with his birds i dont know of any one else that used it like him that done any good.and because of the success barry had we all tried it at one time or another.
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pigeon pete
278 posts
Apr 11, 2009
8:56 AM
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When you state that carbohydrates are all used up after 20 minutes exercise, do those figures come from studies on humans or birds, if birds, what are the sources of these figures?.
Fat, protein, and carbohydrates can all be converted and used for energy. The body has to do a lot more converting with proteins, and is a very ineficient means of obtaining energy. Next comes fat, which stores very efficiently because it is more concentrated, but is converted and used up more slowly and so is used in long endurance flight, and slower activities.
Carbohydrate is the most readily available source of energy because it is stored in the muscles and other organs as fuel, and can be used in anorobic activity such as fsat flying, take-off etc. To compare food types,with fuel for burning, carbohydrate burns fast and is like dry brushwood, fats are slower burning and may be compared to good logs. Protein is like trying to burn moist green wood,lol.
Some grains, although on the face of it may be very similar in fat, carb, and protein makeup have a different effect on our birds, so while wheat and Milo are very similar on paper, because of micro-nutritional qualities that are not recorded on the bare contents charts, they are very different.
Also the digestability of the grains will make a big difference.
For whatever reason, and I suspect it is to do with the fast conversion rate, due to the type of carbohydrate, and it's easy digestability, milo in the short term does give an energy boost that wheat doesn't seem to give. Long term it seems lacking in all round nutrition, so the birds will deteriorate on just Milo as compared to just wheat, which seems a better all-round foodstuff.
Pete.
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donnie james
392 posts
Apr 11, 2009
8:46 PM
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hay nick you done 1/2 of my article i wrote a few years back..............donny james
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Windjammer Loft
767 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:48 AM
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Hey Kel.......just for curiosity sake. Why do you feed all those different grains to your breeders? Aren't the pellets giving your birds all the nutrution they need??
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3385 posts
Apr 13, 2009
12:07 PM
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Pete - the 20 minutes to use up carbs comes from a vet in his study of racing homers (nobody ever studies rollers-LOL). I believe he was a breeder of racing birds as well. I cannot recall his name and I haven't been able to put my hands on the article.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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0221
172 posts
Apr 13, 2009
12:14 PM
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When it comes to rollers I think 2or3 days rest is better than giving a more quality mix to birds that are on the roll.
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 5:13 PM
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RodSD
212 posts
Apr 14, 2009
11:28 PM
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Nick,
Maybe you are talking about either Dr. Gordon Chalmers or even Dr. Colin Walker. I raise homing pigeons so nutrition is one of the things that I study. Basically you want these birds to have energy to fly that could last the whole day if you want.
Some articles from Dr. Chalmers:
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/breastmusclespart1.cfm
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/fuel.cfm
http://www.pigeonnetwork.com/vetdirectory/vetusa/drgordonchalmers/dietarypart1.cfm
Some articles from Dr. Walker. Just check the article section:
http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2009 11:32 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3389 posts
Apr 15, 2009
6:51 AM
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Rod,
Outstanding articles. Dr. Chalmers caught my ey with a few things notelby the following:
Point #1 -- high levels of fat in the diet of birds will DECREASE the amount of fat produced by the liver (Griminger, 1986).
Point #2 -- high levels of protein in the diet of birds will DECREASE the amount of fat produced by the liver!!
Point #3 -- high levels of carbohydrate in the diet of birds will INCREASE the amount of fat produced by the liver (Griminger, 1986).
I cannot say if he or Dr. Walker is who I got my information from, but there are some good information in these articles and is diffinately worth the read.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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RodSD
217 posts
Apr 15, 2009
10:23 PM
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Nick,
I was very surprised when I read those 3 points as well. It does kind of make sense though from common sense. Point #1--the liver doesn't need to produce more fat because it is already available. Point #2, I can't think of an answer. Point #3, makes sense because more carbohydrates available can be converted to fat by the liver. It is the point #2 that puzzles me. It was a good intriguing reading.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3390 posts
Apr 16, 2009
6:40 AM
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Rod,
I am beginning to understand better why corn may be a good warmth generator for winter feeding. I still don't like feeding corn for other reasons, but those guys who I pooh poohed for using it in winter I might owe them an opology; might, I said (LOL).
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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RodSD
225 posts
Apr 16, 2009
11:45 PM
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Nick,
Knowledge is power and opens our mind.LOL! I feed my birds corn although they don't like it during warmer season/time. But research shows that wild birds prefer sunflower seeds in those feeders though instead of corn. I don't know why besides that obviously contains lots of fat. I wonder if birds know something about we don't know. The more I know, the more questions I have and the more confused I become.
I think I am beginning to figure out #2 from common sense perspective. If a protein is high, then quite possibly there is lower carbs and/or fat. Therefore points #1 and #3 applies, but the opposite.
I also think that corn will provide readily carbs for quick energy release than say fat which takes awhile to be converted. I mean we use carbs first, right? Then after exhausting that we ended up using fat. And if worse comes to worse, we use protein where we end up skinny because our muscles are getting converted to energy. I think we are beginning to sound like pigeon nutritionist.
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
203 posts
Dec 18, 2009
10:32 AM
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I found this very interesting so brought it back up good read. Dennis
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2009 11:12 AM
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ezeedad
1088 posts
Dec 19, 2009
4:48 AM
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Corn and milo both have the same scientific name, Zea mays. They are different forms of the same plant, bred differently by man, under cultivation.
Paul G
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