Pinwheel
55 posts
Dec 07, 2009
7:20 PM
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Sorry to yank up this old dusty thing. But a pretty neat Idea. If one could get elevated in the air to video tape a kit, I think it would a little better... like getting up in a cherry picker... or what I really want to try and work on is flying a remote control helicopter with the birds and fly right on the edge of them and pretty much record at eye level. Of course, training the birds to tolerate it would be a different story and making sure your even recording anything while you do that... I like it...
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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fhtfire
2276 posts
Dec 07, 2009
8:42 PM
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Paul,
I think you have a real good idea....and putting it on DVD would be the best...Brian is soooo right about putting video on the internet...it is just hard to do..
Well...I am most likely going to get made fun of by Scott for this...but I have been a model for about 15 years....not as much now because I am old...anyway...I have been behind the camera alot....and you have to know what you are doing when running the video camera...that is why the photograpers and videographers make BANK...because it is a talent. The hours of editing...fixing..compressing..downloading etc etc...HARD WORK...anyway...my point is...I just shot a music video ...(I am the lead dude)..LOL...anyway..the videographer is from fuel 360 productions and runs all HD and his cameras are big bucks...and he was telling me about how hard it is to get it right with HD and to have the right light and camera angles to make a shoot look good....he also stated how he hates putting stuff on the internet because it always looks like shit because of compression etc. I asked him about filming the rollers and he said it would not look as good..becauase like Brian said...the different lighting etc....I said well hell what about discovery channel filming animals etc...he pretty much said...you know how much footage is shot for a 5-10 minute segment....hours and hours...and you have to find the best shot. I told him about the very Roller image on youtube..and again..he said that for a 5 minute shoot on the pigeon rolling....would again..be hours and hours of footage just to capture what you would like...not only it would not look as good as real life..he also said that is why discovery most likely did most of the footage of the rollers in slow motion....does not look as bad and shows what the pigeon does....
I have seen technology myself go from 35mm for some of my shoots...to green screens and digital....to full HD....and the more quality you get...the less you can put on the internet etc....the whole point of shooting in high quality is for the well...High quality...and as soon as you compress it ...you lose the whole reason you shot in HD...or high digital.
It just seems like more work than you really know...I mean...just for an hour or so of actual shooting...is damn near 8 hours of set up...lighting....makeup....retakes...clean up and so on...so all of the above is what makes video on TV look good..lighting...make up and retakes....over and over until you get it right...hell just to pick a couple photos for a portfolio.....I had to take over 400 shots...and that is just becuase you have to catch it just right to make your photo or video look good...there is more that goes on behind the scenes then you can imagine...
Brian has hit the nail on the head...but it is hell of a good idea...but I dont think the technology is good enough yet for the "average" person or to stream it on the internet and look good....just my thoughts...
rock and ROLL
Paul
But a great ass idea!!
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2009 8:45 PM
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macsrollers
236 posts
Dec 07, 2009
10:52 PM
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Conceptually Paul's idea seems interesting and may have some merit. Sometime in the future it may even be feasible. There will always be obstacles to change and personally I feel nothing will ever replace standing under the kits in person and watching. Internet or web based competitions have alot of logistical and technical challenges. Just like in any other competition people will figure out ways to cheat and anything involving electronics offers more ways to do so. In my job as Gaming Surveillance Director we are now in the digital recording age. The Gaming Control Board has quickly learned that digital recording can be easily tampered with to appear as live and unedited. So they require all casinos in Nevada that record digitally to have encryptions built in so that the ability to edit is almost impossible. Any video that is sent over the internet must be firewall protected at both ends as well. So recording with digital cameras can be done in a manner that is protected to such ways of cheating. The hard part is getting each region the same equipment and software that has the encryption built in and protected. The cost would be tough for some areas. Also effectively and consistently recordings of each kit would be difficult. But remember when Star Treck came out and things like motion sensored doors, flip-phones, etc. were way out of this world. Now those things exist and beyond. I have thought, with the BOP problem, that even eventually roller competitions could be moved indoors to the big indoor arenas. Birds could adapt to be flown indoors with a 300 to 400' ceiling. But then who all would have access to such arenas to practice and fly their birds that way. Who knows, someday there may even be a situation where microchips are inserted on each kit bird and a computer monitors data from each bird including velocity, depth, unison of breaks- within milliseconds, and trueness of spin or correctness of spin. That technology is already here, just would take someone to develop for rollers. Could you imagine the Arena Roller Championship with let's say legendary fliers as guest announcers and analysts. "Let's go the computer replay and check that last huge break Rick" Wow, look at the readings on bird #'s 2 and 10. Maximimum velocity and rotation on the velocity meter!" Not really as far fetched as it may sound. Look what a simple game of Poker has grown to on the internet and TV! But this really doesn't sound so fun to me, to have technology measure performance and take the human element totally out of it. Someday it may happen and that is part of change. But for now I like the old fashioned way of actually being there and human discretion, though at times the judge's discretion isn't in agreement with the others watching the same kit. So is cyber space type roller competitions the future of the hobby? Time will tell. The future is the future until it comes, then it instantly becomes the past and the new future is out there! Forward thinking concepts like Pauls are good for the hobby. Is it realistic at this point, doesn't seem so. But neither was Star Trek not that long ago! Enjoy your next fly! Don M. Mac's Rollers
LVRC
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Velo99
2235 posts
Dec 08, 2009
5:15 AM
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Mac
Racers use the bands with a chip to trip thier clocks.We`d just need the telemetry software.
It just occurred to me that we could use live feed to watch as an audience. Wouldnt be anything oficial but it would get you "out of your own backyard".
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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ezeedad
1083 posts
Dec 09, 2009
11:17 AM
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Pinwheel, Paul and Don,
I think we are closing in on the real ability to do something like this. Reading your posts rekindles my interest in this.
I have been thinking about this.. and I think that we could also take it to television. After all, they have shows about cooking cakes, repo men, exterminators, hunters killing ducks and turkeys ..all kinds of wierd stuff..!!
Why not have a show about rollers.?? Or maybe we could get support from racing homer fanciers and other breeds as well. They would love the exposure, I'm sure. The Pigeon Show...!! Coming soon on cable and Direct TV..!!
Paul G
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Pinwheel
57 posts
Dec 09, 2009
4:18 PM
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Yes, Paul do not lose sight of this idea please. This can take the roller hobby to what Eugene Struthers on madTv says, " A Whole....nother....level!" Although to make it easier for people to tune in, a catchy creative show title would be in store. But in the mean time, lets keep trying to shoot for it
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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pigeon pete
448 posts
Dec 10, 2009
7:32 AM
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Guys and Gals,
A video competition would be a whole lot different from a normal flying competititon and would need it's own set of medium specific rules.
For example you may have to abandon the out bird rule.
quality would vary greatly according to the skill of the operator so maybe a minimum standard to observe a scoreable roll then after that they are all equal, other wise it tends to be a videoing competition as much as a flying competition.
The idea is a good one and has been suggested before and all the objections still seem to be in place.
I have often thought that if I was more techno savvy I would have my own website with cameras linked up in some way to the computer, so for instance I could post a message that I intend to fly a kit at a certain time and try to catch it on camera. I know the technology would mean the quality was poor, but it's not just the fly, other fanciers could watch you feeding and cleaning etc.
If porn sites can have live webcams (so I am told) why not pigeon lofts?
When i have videoed rollers following them can be difficult especially if they go behind trees or other objects. You cannot always see them emerge through your lens but bystanders will tell you where they are so you can mis quite a bit. Thr hardest thing I found was getting the camera to focus on the birds.
If you pan wide enough to see the kit AND the birds rolling below it, then the birds may not activate the auto focus and the cemera lens will 'hunt' and the image may be so blurry as to be useless.
Manual focus can overcome this but keeping a moving kit in fosus it is a skill that takes a lot of learning. birds flying below 100ft are virtually impossible to track and keep in focus. Higher flying kits are easier to track and keep focused (until they suddenly drop), but zooming reduces the quality of the immage somewhat.
I think it would be a fun thing to do, but getting fanciers to do it in a competitive way may not be so easy. Taking a camera round the big flys has been done, but results a variable. Maybe each competitior should film his own kit with a video taken around by the judge and we could have film awards event. The
Official
Spinners
Cinematographic
Shoot
Recipients
show.
Best drama (we all get a but dramatic at times)
Best slapstick. Stick slapped on shed roof?
Most graceful fall-over as we hit our shins walking round with a camera to out eyes.
Etc
Pete.
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Scott
2678 posts
Dec 10, 2009
8:11 AM
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Who actualy likes watching birds on video ?
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
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Pinwheel
61 posts
Dec 10, 2009
1:35 PM
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I like to watch the birds that are really good, just to have something to work towards. As if it werent for watching them on youtube, I would never seen anyone elses birds perform. But thats probably my generation; experience the world through the computer. but like pete said, having a cinematographic shoot show, that is something that would be more ideal to start with, which you can grow from.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2009 1:35 PM
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Scott
2681 posts
Dec 10, 2009
2:17 PM
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Buddy you gotta get out and see birds , watching a bird video is as thrilling as watching a fishing on T.V. Only the real thing can give you what is behind it. There is not a video out there that could be judged off of.
And on another thought. You will never see the potential of the breed out of a portable unless you fly it from the same location day in and day out,the hobby of a portable is strickly not loosing birds due to training to the box , the breed does not matter.
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Scott Campbell
" God Bless "
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2009 2:23 PM
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Pinwheel
62 posts
Dec 10, 2009
2:33 PM
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True, Anyone in North Florida, or Even South FLorida? Can do Ga sometimes too? otherwise, Ill be stuck doing that youtube thing, ;). And again, I agree on the day in and day out thing. Just can not get to that point currently. SO im doing what I can do right now, and am having fun. This once a week(on the weekends) is crap, but what can I do? Cant fly in the backyard...
"the hobby of a portable is strickly not loosing birds due to training to the box , the breed does not matter. " Say again?
I cant think right now, its my job, and been doing it all day... I feel like a loser
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2009 2:37 PM
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steve49
356 posts
Dec 10, 2009
4:08 PM
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I'm new to competition this year, but i think there could be a place for Paul's idea. I actually was thinking about 'critter cam' on a roller's back, where we'd actually get to see performance from the birds view. I think this idea has a place in our hobby, and i don't think Paul was saying to replace the current method of judging. when you factor in the cost of transporting judges to each flyer's loft, the video competition can be a lower cost option. THat alone could bring more backyard flyers out of their yards and give competing a try. I'm in an area where there is no local club, so i'm only able to fly in the national fly and world cup. if video judging was available to me, i'd also like to fly that too. i'm assuming it would be less costly, and therefore make it more affordable for those who don't currently fly due to the costs now. once those flyers who have not flown competitively before try to get their birds on video, they might want to also compete with a live judge under current rules. i don't see how this can't enhance the hobby.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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ezeedad
1084 posts
Dec 11, 2009
4:13 AM
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I think that we have an interesting hobby, and that these birds are so amazing that more people need to know about them. I still meet person after person who has never heard of roller pigeons.
Television would probably be the best way to showcase the hobby. Currently we are almost flying in secrecy.
Obviously then, good footage needs to be shot. Things need to be done to enhance the viewing experience. I thing we would all enjoy seeing a good video..
This would not be something to replace the current competitions, but it would just add to the possibilities. I could see video competition based on evaluation of individual rollers... using the standard of the breed. Having the ability to replay performances and to use freeze frame would help us in evaluating and judging to birds too.
We should look at the positive.. the possibilities.. the future...
Paul G
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Windjammer Loft
1025 posts
Dec 11, 2009
6:18 AM
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Good idea..... but not practical
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
624 posts
Dec 11, 2009
6:53 AM
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The Media would grab hold of the hobby only if Oboma were raising them or raising Falcon,s to chase them LOL.JDA
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 6:54 AM
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ezeedad
1085 posts
Dec 11, 2009
2:37 PM
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Paul the Firefighter...
How have you been doin'?
I read what you say about the idea not being practical. I think that certainly not for a whole kit, or for judging... I agree with virtually everything you say....
At this time perhaps we could make some inroads into documenting and/or measuring the performance... I think that maybe someone could film rollers from a baloon, or glider plane. The actor Yul Brynner used to fly up in a helocopter to watch his rollers and that was back in the late 60s or there abouts.
Probably the idea needs to be seriously modified (downgraded) to something which at the present time at least can produce something better than what we have seen so far.
I think that if 8 hours of shooting could produce 5 minutes of good video that would be progress and it would be more than we have now. To have a video with 5 minutes of good spin would be FANTASTIC..!!
Really I think the biggest problem would be the actual production.. too expensive/time consuming (time = money) That's what is the most imprcatical part of this...
But come to think of it, Brian McCormick did some real decent looking footage..
It could also be a great learning tool for new roller enthusiasts...
Paul G
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 3:03 PM
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Pinwheel
65 posts
Dec 11, 2009
2:45 PM
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OK ladies and gents: Im going to experiment hopefully with success the altimeters they use for remote control planes on an experimental bird. It actually gives a read out of all altitudes attained by the object on a very quick cycle. Hopefully I can show altitude differences during each roll. Sync that with video, and we are on to something.
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 2:46 PM
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ezeedad
1086 posts
Dec 11, 2009
3:07 PM
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BRAVO..!! PINWHEEL..!!,
This is what we need..!! Some people to contribute energies to this. Mmmm.. If we could network and continue to share these ideas, something good can come out of it...
Paul G
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steve49
358 posts
Dec 11, 2009
6:14 PM
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Paul G, maybe if we attack this idea a few pieces at a time, more people will buy into it. there is already technology for small video cameras, called critter cams that might shed some light from a completely different viewpoint. however, that would not show the kits flying in order to see breaks. i think someone needs to film in high quality and put it on a website, where we can comment on it. i wish someone already had one of the cameras you showed, so we could at least get a taste of what can be filmed.
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Steve in Blue Point, NY
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Pinwheel
69 posts
Dec 11, 2009
6:24 PM
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This is a RC helicopter setup... you can actually control the helicopter from the view of the helicpoter in flight... with head gear... This first link is something fancy. But they sell regular RC copters that you can add wireless cameras too..
http://www.rctoys.com/pr/2006/11/09/new-mini-rc-helicopter-and-video-camera-cuts-aerial-video-costs-using-infrared-self-leveling-technology/
Christmas present??? This has been my idea, as long as the birds would tolerate it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUupKOC1bTo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXxyR2KD7aA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ3sa1iGcZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqdcpalRxME&feature=related
GET EXCITED
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2009 6:46 PM
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Velo99
2245 posts
Dec 12, 2009
6:40 AM
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Justin tv is a site to stream live video online. Unlike youtube they use a little more user friendly compression rate. I watch movies and live TV there all the time with very nice resolution. An optional chatroom is available on each channel.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2009 6:41 AM
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Pinwheel
71 posts
Dec 12, 2009
8:41 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKnBPjFHUFw
here is a Nice HD shot from a RC plane...
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Flying in someone else's backyard: Portable Kits
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