pisto
32 posts
Aug 09, 2008
8:48 AM
|
is H the highest degree of spinning or is there an A or a V spin?
|
quickspin
807 posts
Aug 09, 2008
9:45 AM
|
Between the H and the A I would said that the H because it's more balance. The A seems better but it only touches on top and on the bottom is more wider than the H. And then there is the ball were you see no wing at all because of the speed is going. This for me is better and also harder to get I don't have any at this time. Lol
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
Mark
20 posts
Aug 09, 2008
9:56 AM
|
The "A" and the "H" are second and third to the bird that really shows no wing at all, the what I call the nut roller or some guys call the ball roller.
Much harder to produce, but once witnessed, sure to get anyones attention.
Mark
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 9:58 AM
|
gotspin7
1666 posts
Aug 09, 2008
9:57 AM
|
What you should seek is the "tight H" to me that is were it is at...H pattern is good A so so..LOL
----------
Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 9:57 AM
|
JMUrbon
604 posts
Aug 09, 2008
10:58 AM
|
That is one that is in the eye of the beholder. I personally prefer the A style rollers. Not going to go into reasons at this time but just that I like the apperance and speed better. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
Mark
21 posts
Aug 09, 2008
5:12 PM
|
Joe
With all due respect, a bird spinning so hard that it exibits a ball with no wings showing is spinning faster than one that is showing any kind of wing pattern at all. Birds IMHO that are showing the "H" pattern or the "A" are more of smooth roller or what I might call a pretty roller. I'll take that violent hard rolling bird that has feathers coming off any day.
Mark
|
wishiwon2
76 posts
Aug 09, 2008
5:26 PM
|
Im with gotspin on this, a narrow H is my fav. I have seen and raised a couple of the very fast violent spinners that dont show wing. The speed was awesome, but I didnt want a whole kit of them like I do with a nice clean H winger. I breed a fair number A style, they nice, but still not my ideal. Like Joe said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
|
Mark
22 posts
Aug 09, 2008
10:30 PM
|
Well Like the old saying goes "I guess thats why they make fords and chevys". I have always been of the school of thought the faster the spinner the better the spinner. A bird that shows the true HOLE will be the one that is not showing any wings at all. A flyer that has the faster spinners will get better points than the flyer that has a more stylish spin (at least thats the way my pea brain thinks). If a judge would do anything opposite, he has no bussiness judging. I would stock the faster spinning bird over the pretty spinner always in hope or reproducing themselfs. People that witness a true fast HARD spinner will always remenber the bird, the day, who they were with, ect. ect. It's like any other sport or hobby a guy is into, once they experience perfection they will never forget it. I have been surfing for almost 40 yrs. Countless times I have been in the water and the waves were really good, but I can tell you everytime it was perfect. Perfect like they were coming out of a machine. A hard rolling spinner to me is just like a perfect day in the water, there are lots and lots of good ones, but how many perfect or near perfect ones has one experienced.
I hope not to cram my thoughts onto anyone else and maybe I'm all f---ed up, but in the end this is what I strive for.
Mark
|
PR_rollers
1502 posts
Aug 09, 2008
10:35 PM
|
A bird that is spinning so fast that all you see is a blur you will not see the hole at all..thats speed ...
----------
Ralph
|
3757
857 posts
Aug 09, 2008
10:41 PM
|
Mark - I like it and you are correct regarding real fast pigeons. The rare ones spin so fast the seem as if they are staying in place and look like a small tennis ball. I wish these could be produced at the 90 percent level but that is just a dream.
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 10:46 PM
|
Scott
1052 posts
Aug 09, 2008
11:37 PM
|
There is more to quality than speed, I will take great style and ball bearing smooth with decent speed any day over just a fast off balance bird where the wings blur, and I judge the same where it comes to quality, I have seen axle rollers roll as fast as they come,they are still garbage.
If the balance is there you will see the wings, as for my own pigeons I have a harder time breeding birds with great style and balance than I do just fast pigeons.
As for my own preference I like a fast perfictly balanced H wing, they look like a tennis ball with a thin straight line on both sides, if they are off balance and have enough speed the wing will blur, balance,wing position and speed is the key,a great pigeon should have all three.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2008 11:42 PM
|
Mark
23 posts
Aug 10, 2008
7:21 AM
|
Fair enough Scott. I guess it is like having a really super bitchen, shinny, nicly painted race car. It looks good, but ugly cars are faster on race day.
Mark
|
Scott
1055 posts
Aug 10, 2008
8:19 AM
|
The problem is Mark, every day aint race day, and then it is nothing but an ugly car LOL
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
3757
858 posts
Aug 10, 2008
8:45 AM
|
Speed and style must go hand in hand. Any deviation to either is not proper in my opinion.
|
gotspin7
1681 posts
Aug 10, 2008
11:03 AM
|
I think Laron said it best, it goes hand in hand.But great post Mark it is true you do remember those superstars forever! Scott great post.
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Mark
24 posts
Aug 10, 2008
12:48 PM
|
Ture enough and well said Scott. A axel spinning birds spinning as fast as it can is rubbish. A super speed axel roller will exibit a larger hole, about the size of a small apple, and very true, that bird is out of balance. That being said, a spinner that I was making reference to shows a hole about the size of golfball, or better yet even smaller and is spinning the fastest possible (truly the ultimate to veiw). A past comment was made stating it gives the apperence that it is floating instead of dropping, and this (IMHO) is PERFECT balance.
I cannot speak for other people on this list, only myself and I am no where I want to be, but trying all the time to get there. The reference to a "not everyday is race day" is odd. Why have the race car then? Why not strive for the fastest spin possible and then fall short and settle for a pretty spin?
Mark
|
juanrollers
83 posts
Aug 10, 2008
12:55 PM
|
The bird that shows that smooth roll with the donut hole in the middle looks good but to me it does'nt seem that fast. Am I wrong? Or is it actually spinning that fast?
|
quickspin
808 posts
Aug 10, 2008
1:30 PM
|
The smooth roller with speed seem to go slower but actually are going a lot faster than normal Rollers.
Look at Helicopter Propellers they make a shape of a circle because of the speed they are going. when they are passing by your house you can almost see each one turning but do you really think you can see them? no way.
Now the True Birmingham Roller that rolls and looks like a ball falling down that gives a illusion of a small quarter in the center those are rare Rollers. And not many have even seen one.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
KiddenAround
24 posts
Aug 11, 2008
2:42 PM
|
Fascinating post. I'm learning lots. With all these fast spins, do you lose many to the ground? (Unable to pull out?)
----------
-- Laura
Professional Thrill Seeker
|
quickspin
813 posts
Aug 12, 2008
12:05 PM
|
Maybe 2-3 / year this year 1 so far. You need to breed out of birds that don't lack control and have been flying for 1 year or more to be able to know them.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
pisto
39 posts
Aug 12, 2008
6:51 PM
|
thanks to everyone who has contributed their knowledge and comments i've learned alot and i am going to do some verification on what my pigeons do
|
J_Star
1711 posts
Aug 13, 2008
1:17 PM
|
What style is it when the wings are touching from the wing joint all the way to the tip of the fligt feather appearing as the birds spinning like a rotating one balde!! The spin is always ballbearing smooth.
I have several of those birds and I reffer to them as () style. Just wondering if that is the true name.
Jay
|
JMUrbon
613 posts
Aug 13, 2008
3:20 PM
|
Jay I refer to that as a shrunken A style spin. Very fast and like you stated " Ball Bearing Smooth". They seem to shrink and the speed excelerates as they drop. There are probably other descriptions of this style but that is what I have always referred to it as. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
wishiwon2
78 posts
Aug 15, 2008
9:18 PM
|
I think maybe a few ppl here on this thread arent understanding what balance is, especially how Scott is using it. If the birds isnt spinning equally in both sides (right and left)then it wobbles and isnt balanced. There is no symetry. Even if wings are held correct, if the axis around which the bird rotates isnt even (imagine a cone shaped axis) its unbalanced. Also some ppl make claims about seeing the hole when in fact it isnt that. If what you're seeing is as big as an apple, I dont believe that is what the "hole" is. The "hole" proper is/should be about the size of a quarter, and is rarely visible because you must be at precisely the correct position to see it ... In my opinion the "hole" is an over rated attribute that is pursued unnecessarily.
I agree 100% with what Scott described about balance. A balanced pigeon spinning with wings straight up (H) that is clean into and out of the roll is in my opinion superior to all others. Smoothness comes from proper balance, balance come from multiple factors acting together with precision. Wings must stroke equally, the head must be held centered, etc, etc to create a balanced, smooth roll. No, smoothness does not mean a bird is rolling slower than any other, often times the opposite is the case because it requires less effort and the movement creates less drag.
The race car analogy is a good one, the difference is we dont 'race' our birds. Im not a vain person but I choose to not drive an ugly car for the occasional race day exhibition. Birds which roll wicked fast but are out of balance and shaggy ragged looking in the roll will almost always be scored lower Q value than birds which roll smooth and clean, by and by most of the judges I know and respect. The multiplier in our competition is for Quality which includes but is not exclusive to rotational speed. A team which breaks clean and spins smooth leaves more of an impression on me than any single spinner of any speed, "hole" or not. I havent been all around the world, but Ive seen some of the best this country has to offer. Now if I could just make some like that ...
|
scrimpscrampi
34 posts
Aug 15, 2008
11:16 PM
|
I bought a start in a family that a guy told me he got rid of because they were 'H' style and 'better' birds came along (not 'H' style). So now I am confused!
----------
scrimpscrampi
Tulsa, OK
|
Scott
1077 posts
Aug 15, 2008
11:24 PM
|
Most of what people consider H is actualy wide X , and if they aren't smooth and aren't fairly fast they look pretty poor,I breed too many of these type.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2008 11:25 PM
|
JBow
148 posts
Dec 18, 2009
10:47 PM
|
Dam after reading this i disposed of all my pigeons. Jim Bowen
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3958 posts
Dec 18, 2009
11:18 PM
|
LMAO Jim
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
pigeon pete
454 posts
Dec 19, 2009
3:05 AM
|
The biggest source of confusion is interweb disscussions like this.
you always get some guy saying "Now I am really confused" after a lenthy explaination, so we need to try and be clear about what we mean when we use expression such as balance and so on.
I'll try, lol.
To me a bird that had a side to side inbalance e.g one wing is a bit stiff for example, will be very obvious and it will stick out like a sore wing. It may start rotating more than one way during the roll.
When we say rolling straight we mean only rolling on one axis with no glitches or obvious wobbles.
some birds will end up rolling sideways (like a carosel rather than like a car wheel),and may turn every wich way on the way down.
The balance that produces the A and the H shape must be a straight roll, but must also have another sort of balance that would be better called synchronicity or something similar.
A roller may drop straight down in the roll, and it may be rolling fast, but the style is not right without the roll being synchronised.
By this I mean that on each rotation, the wings describe the same arc, at the same part of the rotation as it did on the rotation before and the one after.
If we look at a rolling pigeon and describe what we see, and for the sake of clarity we call the top, the top of the image formed by the rolling pigeon and the front the front of the image which is the way the bird was facing as it entered the roll and so on.
This needs explaining because if I say the wings touch at the top, some fanciers will think I mean the top of the pigeon, not the top of the image we see.
So, the unsynchronised roller may touch it's wingtips together at the top on one rotation, and then slightly to the front or back, and so on, and it may touch it's wingtips at all points of the compass on a deep roll.
This pigeon will not be an H or an A but will be a mess, or if you prefer, a blur.
Another example is a bird that sometimes touches its wingtips then misses on the next rotation so it's doing an A roll on one rotation and an X on the next.
Another bird will try to do 2 wingstrokes on some rotations.
All these examples do not roll cleanly.
The clean roll is one where each rotation is the same as all the others with the wings doing their thing at exactly the same time on each turn.
The speed of rotation can increase during the roll without effecting the style as long as the roll remains in synch.
I seem to be the only one in the hobby to state and restate this next fact (is it a fact?,lol)
but I maimtain that the A and the H roller are one and the same bird seen from a different angle.
I have said it before, with no agreement or argument being put up, - just silence. Is it because there is a following of the alphabet bible among roller fanciers, and we can't think well maybe all those thousands of words extolling one style over the other have all been BS? or what.
When I first read about A, X, H, (), rollers many years ago I looked at my own birds and wondered what the hell all the fuss was about.
My best rollers, well most of at that time actually, showed a clearly defined A shape when seen from the front view.
When seen from below these same birds showed the H or X shape, and I have mentioned this a few times over the years on roller forums with absolutely no response.
I stood ready to be ridiculed or proven wrong, but no, I just presumed that either i suffer hallucinations every time I watch my birds, or my birds roll different from all the U.S birds, or the rest of you guys are a bit short sighted,lol
I need to clear this up for the sake of my own sanity, So if any of you have a bird that clearly shows the A style whenever it rolls, can you try and look at that same bird from directly underneath, and tell me what you think, because in 25 years I never saw one show the A shape from the front and also from directly below.
The X roller will of course show the X from the front, and from below will be an X or a H, because it doesn't get its wingtips together to form the top of the A.
Cheers,
Pete.
|
pigeon pete
455 posts
Dec 19, 2009
3:30 AM
|
Mark,
Just pairing the fatest rollers together and then thinking the ones that are slower will be 'pretty' rollers as you call them is in my opinion putting the cart in front of the horse.
I think the quality of the roll can be easily lost in the quest for speed.
Get the roll right first, and speed will follow.
Oh, and a nice shiny car will go faster than one painted with a broom, all other things being equal.
Pete.
|
winwardrollers
369 posts
Dec 19, 2009
7:18 AM
|
Somedays... I think all the differance between all these styles is conditioning and tail lenght.
What is a () framer... is it a tight H framer that is double jointed...lol
bwinward
|
birdman
760 posts
Dec 19, 2009
9:53 AM
|
Pigeon Pete, you make some excellent points in your post #454.
Have you noticed any differences in type between your A style and X style birds?
I've noticed that my A style birds are nearly always the same type, with a little bit longer cast to the body and not so wide at the shoulders but good chest muscle. On the other hand, my X wingers can be broader and fuller in the chest and shorter cast.
There are exceptions of course and nothing is written in stone, but these are my observations of my birds.
Russ
|
donnie james
841 posts
Dec 19, 2009
3:18 PM
|
hay pisto i have to agree with quckspin and mark.............
----------
Donny James
"Fly The Best And Cull The Rest"
"Saying One Thing;Doing Its Another"
"Keep Your Head Planted In The Sky And Wings Spanned Wide"
1996 Piedmont Roller Club Lifetime Achievement Recipient
Portsmouth Roller Club Participation Award System Recipient 1994 '96 '97 And 2000
2001 Limestone,Ohio Sportsman's Club Lifetime Member Recipient
2002Portsmouth Roller Club Certified Judge
2004Portsmouth Roller Club Lifetime Member Recipient
"Miss Portsmouth"NBRC/90/J311 Rusty Dun Check Self Hen First Bird To Get Certified In Portsmouth Roller Club History With A Score Of 53 Judge By Joe Roe The 1993 World Cup Winner And John Bender The 1994 World Cup Winner
|
Mark
58 posts
Dec 19, 2009
4:11 PM
|
Pete,
I'm sort of confussed about your post. The post was about speed and my reference to the ugly race car might of been confusing to some. Here in Southern Cal we (as kids) use to cruise the beach and guys with the race cars would do their thing. I have seen many, many ugly cars blow the doors off the shinney chrome ones and that was what I was refering to. It's alot easier to doll up a car than to produce a fast one. A guy just has to go to the chrome shop and get his stuff. The guys with the fast cars would work endless hours in their garage
Style is cool if thats what the buyer of the feed wants, but at my house is all about and has always been about the speed of the spin. That being said, I'm not putting anyone down with H style birds. I don't have a high speed camera so I really have no way of counting the revolutions of a H style spinner compared to the Ball spinner, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the Ball spinner is making more revolutions and more revolutions relates to more speed, would you not agree?
I know Pete you have been around much longer that I. Why is it that the H style spinners are much more common than the super hard Ball spinner? IMHO it is because it is so much harder to produce.
Your comment about having to start of with the right style instead of the right speed really threw me for a loop. Again, IMHO if a person started off with the right speed everything else will follow.
Sorry for being so long winded Pete, but it is all about the speed and only the speed. I try by best to breed spinners not rollers. To me they are rollers on in name. Like I said eariler, it's only matters what the buyer of the feed thinks.
Mark
|
pigeon pete
459 posts
Dec 19, 2009
5:10 PM
|
Hi Mark,
i was refering to streamlining with the car analogy.
I guess it's each to his own and if you prefer not to breed rollers that's your choice.
I don't think that H rollers are really all that common, most are X wing. Even some A frame birds are X wingers.
In the quest for faster rollers I see more birds produced that wrap up tighter than I used to see.
As a result I don't see as many stylish rollers that show the hole from the side.
I have never owned a roller that was just a ball in the roll (except from the side view) so I'm not really qualified to comment on their quality or otherwise. I have had rollers that you couldn't tell what style they were because they were just a mess of feathers in the roll but they are just culls of course. The fsstest rollers I ever saw had excellent style, but thinking about what you said, and bearing in mind the car analogy, I suppose birds that have poor style i.e 'ugly' pigeons could also spin fast as well, but I wouldn't want to watch them.
I agree that as you say, more revolutions related to more speed.
I have a question/s for you Mark.
If your spinners are just a ball in the roll, what has happened to the wings? How does a solid ball spinner hold it's wings in the roll? where are they positioned?
Does it propel itself differently from a roller?
Most very fast roller that I have seen have tended to really ball up tight and fast at a good height and it is hard to see what the wings are doing if the bird is high or off at an angle. speed alone will not make the wings disapear. another car analogy,lol
rev a car engine at 1000rmp which is about as fast as any pigeon could spin which is 16 revs per second. The fan blades will blur, but you can still see them, in fact at the right angle you will see them at 2000rpm. so where have the wings gone?
I'm not being argumenative, I'm just as confused and long winded as anyone,lol.
My ideal roller would have excellent style. would be very smooth and very fast in the roll, it would ball up tight and have good depth and all the good habits that would make it a good kit bird.. Now I don't have any like that at this time, but I would suggest that producing such a roller would be more involved than breeding a fast spinner regardless of quality.
Pete
Last Edited by on Dec 19, 2009 5:10 PM
|
pigeon pete
460 posts
Dec 19, 2009
5:22 PM
|
Russ,
The first bird I noticed that was not the usual A style was a bird I bought from a well known fancier, and funnily enough it was quite narrow at the shoulders. I think it is as much about wing mobility as width of chest. My best rollers have been small to medium, wedge shaped body, and slightly but no excessively cobby, but all body types can roll well.
The fastest rollers have almost always been smallish birds. If the style is right (for me) then the body type is right. Different families of rollers may have diferent body types as their best performers.
This is why you need to be carefull when introducing an outcross. It seems only sensible that if your best rollers are long cast slim birds, for example, then breeding from that type will stand you a better chance of breeding more of the same, than breeding from different body types.
Pete.
|
Mark
59 posts
Dec 20, 2009
9:49 AM
|
Pete,
Again, my analogy about the race car was just what it was, race car=speed
To me, it's not about not raising roller, it's about raising spinners.
Your comment about the X roller is right on, but where I live here in Southern Cal, I have seen more than a few H pattern rollers and I am no way saying which side of the pond has the best birds. We (me)for sure have our (my) fair share of culls.
I, myself have only witnessed a handful of the spinners that I have tried to describe, but again many more H style rollers.
I cannot answer your question about where the wings go, I guess they are spinning so fast that the wings can't be seen and the apperence is just a ball.
When it is all said and done I guess we just agree to disagree.
Happy Holidays,
Mark
|
pigeon pete
461 posts
Dec 20, 2009
12:45 PM
|
Hi Mark I think most disagrements are about not really understanding what the other fellow is saying.
I think if it were possible for us to both stand under some good rollers/spinners we would most likely be in agreememnt about which were the best, and be able to appreciate more what we each means when we describe our ideals.
Cheers,
Pete.
|
Mark
60 posts
Dec 20, 2009
3:03 PM
|
Pete,
I don't think I could have said it any better than that. Your reputation on this side of the pond is outstanding (at least in my opinion). I, like some, have the inability to transfer my true thoughts into words, hence you will very seldom see my thoughts in print.
Maybe sometime we could do just that (stand under a kit).
Mark
|
Velo99
2249 posts
Dec 21, 2009
5:03 PM
|
Just look thru this one for a while. There are all sorts of things to talk about. Its a good cure for cabin fever. BTW if you look in the bottom right corner of your browser window theres an icon that says 100% you canuse it to zoom in and out.
enjoy
yits
kh
----------
V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____ _
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
|
