ezeedad
718 posts
Aug 13, 2008
1:31 PM
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I think that the people that are new to this breed should realize that Birmingham rollers are not a sport. This is supposed to be a breed that performs to a certain standard.
The kit competition aspect of the roller hobby has gotten very popular. In fact it has become so popular that many fliers believe that they can disregard the very standard that defines the True Birmingham Roller.
In my opinion, the breeder should be trying to produce the true type Birmingham Roller, if they are not, it only stands to reason that they are trying to produce something else.
When Pensom described the standard, he did it for the clear reason that it should be maintained, and not forgotten. He also explained the reasons for a decline in the higher qualities of the breed.
Today far too much emphasis is being placed on turns...and far too little reward is given for quality. Until this is corrected a decline in quality is bound to continue.
Paul Gomez
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JMUrbon
612 posts
Aug 13, 2008
3:14 PM
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I agree with you Paul to a certain extent. You will find that most fliers that are serious breed for the highest quality rollers possible. I know that I do. You will also find that over time those that continue flying rollers will in time either begin breeding strictly for the quality rollers or the pretty rollers. That has been my observation over the years and has been pretty consistant throughout the years. I feel that what holds most beginners back from breeding strictly towards the quality is the lack of quality in their stock loft. As the quality in their stock loft increases so will the output of quality birds in the air. A overly frequent kit will not beat a high quality kit that has good depth. At least not with most QUALITY minded judges. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Spin City USA
75 posts
Aug 13, 2008
4:17 PM
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Paul, that is a great observation. When I was in Longmont Co
That is one of the topics that Elmer, Doug and I talked about. When I was growing up in L.A. I had the opportunity to see a kit of red badges that Pensom had, they were competition rollers from England, they flew in a figure 8 pattern and rolled at each end,big breaks 10ft each time. Pensom said this is what would happen to the BR's if they were bred to win competitions. As Americans we like competitions and we want points scored, That is why soccer and Hockey have never really caught on here in the USA,they are popular as second tier sports. We want to see high scores, 45 to 38 ,21 to 17,ect. If we try to fly to the standard of what the BR is supposed to be the flyer with the most quality birds in his kit should win. I fly the deapest quality birds that I can get to kit properly. If I can get 15 to 20 scoreable in 20 min I am a happy camper. That kind of score will never win the world Cup the way it is now structured. I can remember when the monthly fly was to get togerher with your friends to see what each other had been doing and fly your birds, we had a three series young bird fly and a five series fly, and gave a little trophy to the high point flyer of each series. You could have had the best kit for the day, but the talk was always about which individual bird was the best. I guess you can breed what ever you want and call them what ever as long as you pay the feed bill, but you cant change the standard to score more points. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE POINTS!
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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George R.
957 posts
Aug 13, 2008
4:37 PM
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Your Right Paul its not a Sport but a Hobby, I think I will start breeding for 1 or 2 good Birds a year that have some strange Colors or mutations . What the Hell I wont even Fly them if they look nice.
what do you guys think ? would that move my loft forward or would that be a step backward.
The novice
George
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1999 posts
Aug 13, 2008
6:17 PM
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I CONSIDER FLYING BIRDS A HOBBY........................
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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SSLOFTS
110 posts
Aug 13, 2008
6:41 PM
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I would say it is what you say it is. If you fly and breed for competitions then I'd call it a sport,just like horse racing or dog field trials are a sport. If there is an offical set of rules,guidelines and judging I say it's a sport. If you fly and breed your birds for what you like,maybe extra deep rolling,color,(dare I say it) THE TWIZZLE!,etc then I would call it your hobby. It's two different things. Some guys can't understand that. If he's a comp flyer then the backyard guys birds are junk.If he's a backyard flyer that likes something different than a bird that would do good in a comp,the comp flyer's birds are junk.The way I look at it is whoever pays the feedbill decides what he does with his birds.Myself I like birds that fly real high and roll deep.If I could get a bird that flew 1000'and rolled 950' I'd take 100 of them.If someone said that bird was junk and his were better,guess what,I could care less and would keep flying what makes me happy.If you like the sport of flying BRs great! If you like the hobby of flying BRs that's great too!That's only my opinion and everyone else is entitled to their own. Nick
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SSLOFTS
111 posts
Aug 13, 2008
6:48 PM
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Paul(fhtfire) The birds do the physical part in this sport. Ok.it's late and my wife called me to bed (and by your definition,I may be in for some sports tonight!!!!!)
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Scott
1064 posts
Aug 13, 2008
7:25 PM
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This breed has been used for sport since it's beginning, some are flyers and some aren't, those that aren't just talk.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
3076 posts
Aug 13, 2008
7:35 PM
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I never consider anything that is judged to be a sport and the human is not the participant cannot be a sport. Gymnatastics in my view point is not a sport; niether is horse racing. I also believe that to be a sport the event has to take on some hard physical effort by human participation. This being said I do not consider bowling or golf a sport.
So, flying rollers or any bird is not a sport by these definitions. I agree with you on that point.
But, there are things in your post that I do not agree with.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2008 12:17 PM
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Scott
1066 posts
Aug 13, 2008
8:19 PM
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(IT'S NOT ABOUT THE POINTS! )
Jay , you got that right,when it just becomes about the points the standard goes down.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
719 posts
Aug 13, 2008
8:30 PM
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I think that most people replied to this in the spirit that I posted it. Not as a put-down to anyone, but as my thoughts concerning the trend that Birmingham Roller breeders find themselves confronting. Thanks. I think I probably should have titles the thread BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS ARE MORE THAN A SPORT.
Paul G
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gabe454
1194 posts
Aug 13, 2008
8:31 PM
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I would say it is a sport!
Meaning of sport:Sport is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively
454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2008 8:33 PM
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Scott
1067 posts
Aug 13, 2008
9:24 PM
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(BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS ARE MORE THAN A SPORT.)
I agree 100 0/0
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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RO
166 posts
Aug 13, 2008
11:09 PM
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Then what about hunting?????
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Ro
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J T
160 posts
Aug 14, 2008
9:01 AM
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Competition with Birmingham Rollers I consider a sport.
I built all of my lofts & kit boxes. Aches & pains & blood.
I am out there every day in the blistering sun,
and freezing cold, 3 to 4 hours.
Wearing a mask while cleaning the loft in 100 degree heat
Hauling buckets of ultra rich nutrients to the garden.
Working overtime in a crappy work place,,, because
my baby’s need food, vitamins and bands.
Going over the game plan every winter to assure the
best pair is mated together.
Maybe I’m wrong. When I analyze all that goes into this
it sounds more like a JOB.
If someone breeds open loft, never cleans, don’t care if the birds spin or not,
has 15 different varieties of birds mixed together
spends 10 minutes a day with their birds,, YES A HOBBY.
Collecting four leaf clovers = hobby
Catching fire flies = hobby
Flying competition rollers = JOB / SPORT
JMHO
JT
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washington86
482 posts
Aug 14, 2008
9:07 AM
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I'll have to agree with you JT. With all that hard work, I really consider it's a sport. It's not the birds that do the job, it's us that need to do the job for them so that they can produce the birds you want in the sky. And it is more like a job too. I think that if you compete then it's a sport, if not, then it's a hobby.
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W.Cha
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Otis
129 posts
Aug 14, 2008
10:18 AM
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Paul, I know of no competition roller flyer that doesn't wish to breed nor fly what he hopes is the most finest example of a stylish, smooth, deep individual roller he can produce singularly or in numbers with a work rate that may astound the uninitiated. To state that there is an effort to breed away from such is foolish at best. As Joe Urbon suggested, maybe the stock lofts of those wishing better lack in their foundation material. As with all things, specimens get better and more able to break past records and achievements given time, study, lack of predation and trainers pushing the envelope. Most advancement in our hobby/sport of choice will occur in the ability of astute fanciers to field teams of old birds that can do it right. Contrary to popular opinion, the recent WC winner-Rich Hayes did just that with a kit of old hens-some as old as 6+ years old. To make such blanket statements that the true Birmingham roller is not being cultivated without having witnessed or observed them is a little shortsighted. Could it be that maybe the bar has been raised and that it just didn't occur in your neighborhood! With all due respect Paul, a very good question! Otis
p.s. We are trainers of athletes however small. with it comes work. Competition with numbers takes consistent effort and work on our parts. Tell a person that trains Greyhounds it's a hobby.I agree with JT..it's a sport!
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2008 11:29 AM
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Spin City USA
76 posts
Aug 14, 2008
10:57 AM
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I think that when Paul rephrased the statement and put"more than",it makes a better topic. Everybody works at this(sport,hobby,game,art, ect),it does not matter what you call it the results should be the same. I have talked to flyers who have told me they breed the shorter faster birds because that is what wins, and that frequency is the name of the game,points(their opinion). I guess its true , beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I believe that every one is trying to do the best they can with what they have and put up the best they can. Must be how each of us interpets the standard. Fly on.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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ezeedad
720 posts
Aug 14, 2008
10:58 AM
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Otis,
I believe that practically all roller breeders want the highest in quality. However the scoring in kit competition is based mainly on simultaneous performance. The motivation to win changes ones priorities. There is no effort to breed away from the standard, it is just that the focus is changed.
While you are a good writer, I see that you are speculating and misquoting me quite a bit... What I do sometimes is to cut and paste the statement I am answering, then I erase it before I post my reply.
The reason that I am making an effort to bring this into focus is that I've been in this hobby close to 50 years. I have seen the style change away from the donut style. The talk always seems to lag behind the reality and paints a rosy picture of it. I bought several birds from Pensom, more than a dozen. I became familiar with the style of those birds... That's why I can see the difference.
Probably there are more speedballs now but there are far fewer donuts. The standard is donuts.
I grew up in Los Angeles. There have always been some breeders who have continued to hold the bar high. The bar has not been raised. Pensom already had it as high as is possible.
Paul G
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tapp
631 posts
Aug 14, 2008
11:02 AM
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If you just tak pigeon and fly at home it's a hobby. If you put all the time and effort and fly in the Fall Fly and W/C And Big fys in your region it's a sport!!!Your's in the sport, Kim Tappenden
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Tapp
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ezeedad
721 posts
Aug 14, 2008
11:09 AM
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Jay,
I have had the same kind of conversation with many fliers who say that if they want to win they have to fly a different kind of bird. The Standard needs to be repeated I guess It consists of three things..
1. Blur speed
2. Wings held straight up
3. A hole is visible when viewed from the side
Paul G
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Sir Frankie
12 posts
Aug 14, 2008
11:23 AM
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All of the above. Some just want to fly as a hobby. Some want to fly as a sport. It the training.
Sir Frankie
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Spin City USA
77 posts
Aug 14, 2008
11:41 AM
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Paul, dont forget the deapth and quality factor. The hardest part for me is keeping the quality with adding deapth with each generation.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2008 11:43 AM
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Scott
1069 posts
Aug 14, 2008
12:04 PM
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Ottis, great post , but you are talking to someone that doesn't have the slightest clue and only talks about flying pigeons, that is a huge difference than those of us that actualy do.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2008 12:10 PM
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nicksiders
3081 posts
Aug 14, 2008
12:10 PM
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" I know of no competition roller flyer that doesn't wish to breed nor fly what he hopes is the most finest example of a stylish, smooth, deep individual roller he can produce singularly or in numbers with a work rate that may astound the uninitiated. To state that there is an effort to breed away from such is foolish at best.........To make such blanket statements that the true Birmingham roller is not being cultivated without having witnessed or observed them is a little shortsighted. Could it be that maybe the bar has been raised and that it just didn't occur in your neighborhood!"
Otis - that post is something to remember
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2008 12:13 PM
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cv rollers
55 posts
Aug 14, 2008
1:11 PM
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you r all correct because in this great country we all can voice our own opinion .. in all due respect ,in my opinion someone that has 50 years in hobby/sport is correct (paul).
rick
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ezeedad
722 posts
Aug 14, 2008
3:35 PM
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Jay,
Right..!! I absolutely should have included depth... "through a considerable distance"... that is also becoming harder to find.
Scott,
I am flying my birds every day....unless I go fishing or to a pigeon event... I'm planning a humbling event for you in the not so distant future..!!
cv rollers,
I appreciate the comment. A lot of guys are so committed to the "way it is" that they are only looking for things that will back up the way they are doing things.
Paul G
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George R.
959 posts
Aug 14, 2008
8:41 PM
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"Scott,
I am flying my birds every day....unless I go fishing or to a pigeon event... I'm planning a humbling event for you in the not so distant future..!!"
Scott are you scared ....LOL according to Paul it's gonna rain Donuts ...
George
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ezeedad
724 posts
Aug 14, 2008
9:01 PM
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George,
It would be nice if just once you had something constructive to say.
Remember the message that Don gave to you..?? MAKE IT A DOUBLE..!!
Paul G
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2008 9:02 PM
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tapp
632 posts
Aug 14, 2008
9:14 PM
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Scott,
I am flying my birds every day....unless I go fishing or to a pigeon event... I'm planning a humbling event for you in the not so distant future..!!
Paul, are you planning to put up a kit against Scotts? When is the date. I'll have to book a flight out!!! I always wanted to go to Ca.
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Tapp
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ezeedad
725 posts
Aug 14, 2008
9:34 PM
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Tapp,
No, I know what Scott has going.. He is a big kit competition flyer. It would be foolish for me to challenge him at his strength.. Especially since he is flying something like 5 or 6 kits.. I am waiting for a good hot spinner or two to stabilize.. then we can go head up individual... 30 point scoring rules...
Paul G
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tapp
634 posts
Aug 14, 2008
10:25 PM
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Thats ok, I still comming out some day and see you guys and your kits! I have some campbells only the tip of the iceberg Off his family. And some fine individual performers. Should be interesting fly!
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Tapp
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pisto
42 posts
Aug 14, 2008
11:09 PM
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to me itsnot a sport or a hobby its my life i love this i wish had rollers since i was born lol but i take this roller thing serious
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gotspin7
1709 posts
Aug 15, 2008
6:28 AM
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Great post Ottis! Clear as glass baby!!
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Sal Ortiz
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JMUrbon
614 posts
Aug 15, 2008
10:39 AM
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raising and flying rollers is MY HOBBY,now what I choose to do with these birds by flying them in competition makes the sport. Just to go jogging isnt considered a sport. If you competed in a marathon or other running event,that is the sport. What I really dont like hearing is that because we choose to fly competition that we have lost the concept of breeding and flying great rollers. That in itself is a bunch of crap. Paul knows it and so do I. This post rates up there with the twizzlers to me. Because we dont breed for them we have lost our grasp on what Pensom would have wanted. Once again a bunch of crap.A roller is defined as " to spin over backwards with inconcievable rapidity" no were in there does it say that they cannot be flow in competition or that they have to be flown in competition. We fly them in competition because we choose to. If you choose not to then that is your choice. But please stop with these posts that make the comp fliers out to be destroying the breed. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
1071 posts
Aug 15, 2008
10:42 AM
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Paul,I don't breed for quanity, at the moment at the end of breeding season I have three kits of youngsters plus old bird team,the youngster kits will get whittled down to the cream.
I'm just kind of curius though, what does "good hot spinner or two to stabilize.. " mean ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2008 10:43 AM
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kcfirl
472 posts
Aug 15, 2008
1:36 PM
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Paul,
the day you fly any kind of competition, single, double, 11 birds, 20, whatever, against Scott and win, is the day I'll begin to take what you say about your birds a lot more seriously.
It is easy to make threats and promises, please let me know when you actually fly the birds in the comp.
Regards,
Ken
R
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George R.
960 posts
Aug 15, 2008
2:08 PM
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Paul said
"I'm just kind of curius though, what does "good hot spinner or two to stabilize.. " mean ?"
Scott whats your meaning of this statement ??
The Novice
George
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ezeedad
726 posts
Aug 15, 2008
4:50 PM
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Okay fellas...
I have come to the realization that certain people see my statements as an attack on competition..
I am not against the competition.. just the scoring system. . If you don't see what I have been trying to say you probably won't. Pensom tried very hard to explain this. He did not succeed. So who am I to think that I have a chance.
Paul Gomez
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Scott
1073 posts
Aug 15, 2008
5:24 PM
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Pensoms statement was made when competiton tumber rules were being used where there was no depth or quality standard in place what so-ever, and he was a 100 0/0 correct.
But we are not talking apples for apples in any way shape or form as we now have rules developed strickty for Birmingham Rollers.
Poor quality should never be scored from the get go,and if a judge is worth his salt he won't score such birds,up and beyond the minimum the multipliers reward quality and or depth heavily.
Paul, Pensom didn't develope the breed or the standard, what developed the standard is what is pleasing to the eye, that being smoothness from balance,speed and wing position,all rolling with complete fluidness, the tighter the package the more pleasing it is to the eye.
Twizling,Wingswitching,wings out ect. is not pleasing to the eye and why we consider them culls,maybe it's time for some to quit hiding behind Pensom and useing the man as an excuse.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2008 5:32 PM
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ezeedad
727 posts
Aug 15, 2008
6:15 PM
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Okay Scott
Much of what you say is right. But my real beef is with the scoring system. I think the judges are very good. But if you look at the fly results it is clear to see that the multipliers are not much of a factor since they are so close. Okay but what do I know..??
The multipliers in the last world cup for example:
1. 1.6 & 1.6
2. 1.8 & 1.5
3. 1.7 $ 1.5
4. 1.7 & 1.4
5. 1.5 & 1.3
6. 1.5 & 1.3
7. 1.6 & 1.5
8. 1.6 & 1.4
9. 1.5 & 1.4
10. 1.6 & 1.4
Quality, the first column Depth the second column. You call this being scored heavily? I think that if you didn't even use the multipliers the winner would be the same...
In fact I might try that..
"smoothness from balance,speed and wing position,all rolling with complete fluidness, the tighter the package the more pleasing it is to the eye."
And how is this being judged?
Yes, You're right Scott, Pensom didn't develop the breed or the standard, but he did attempt to maintain it the same as it was when he learned it.
I think that what you call a twizzle is a cull too. But
that is not what Pensom was talking about. None of us probably has ever seen a real twizzle.. So the way I see it is that either you're right or Pensom was right. I'm putting my money on Pensom.
Paul G
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Scott
1074 posts
Aug 15, 2008
6:27 PM
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Paul, those are extreamly heavy multipliers,not sure where you got them ,where are the 1.0 to 1.4 s ? irregardless there is a world of difference betwwen even a 1.5 verses a 1.8.
As for the twizler stuff, you are making yourself look silly Paul.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
728 posts
Aug 15, 2008
6:35 PM
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Joe,
I know that practically everyone wants to breed the best rollers they can. I said that I should have titled this thread as "Birminghams are MORE than a Sport"
I think that competition is great, so I'm sorry that you take it this way.. In fact, I think a lot of guys see me as attacking what they love. But I just want to see this hobby become the best it can be.
Competition fliers are maintaining a high level of quality, but the scoring doesn't encourage them to do so. Competition flyers are also probably the reason that the breed has become so popular.
So I apologize, Joe, if I have made it seem like I am putting competition fliers down. It is certainly not my intention.
Paul Gomez
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ezeedad
729 posts
Aug 15, 2008
6:39 PM
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Scott,
Those are the multipliers from this year's World cup finals.
As far as the twizzle thing... I guess Pensom made himself look silly then... He said it.
Paul G
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Scott
1075 posts
Aug 15, 2008
6:54 PM
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Paul, the scoreing system most certainly does encourage the breeding of top shelf birds.
As for the twizler,head over to the UK side of the site where the breed was developed and talk to them boys about it.
When I get time I will search out his later writings on this since what that comes from is his early writings I believe.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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RO
167 posts
Aug 16, 2008
3:04 PM
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Paul G wrote
" cv rollers
I appreciate the comment. A lot of guys are so committed to the "way it is" that they are only looking for things that will back up the way they are doing things.
Paul G"
Paul isnt that exactly what you doing.
Last Edited by on Aug 16, 2008 3:05 PM
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ezeedad
735 posts
Aug 16, 2008
9:12 PM
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The thing holding up the quality of the breed is the will and ability of the breeders... not the rules of competition...
Ro..... HUH...!!??
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gotspin7
1724 posts
Aug 17, 2008
4:54 AM
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Paul, take a deep breath...LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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Windjammer Loft
383 posts
Aug 17, 2008
7:13 AM
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WOW!!!! this tread sure did stur up a can of BEE'S....
As I see it a hobby is this....An activity or interest pursued for "pleasure or relaxation" and not as a main occupation:
And a sport is....an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature...a particular form of this,esp in the out doors...diversion recreation, pleasant pastime...jest,fun,mirth,pleasantry..
"mockery,ridicule,derision"...to amuse oneself with some pleasant pastime or recreation...to pass (time) in amusement...
So,if you take a good look at what both mean you can see alittle of BOTH within our birds.
So what Paul Gomez is stating has more to do with the actual scoring... Maybe' we should seriously take a STRONG look at REORGANIZING the structure of the point system and the STANDARDfor flying competition. And come up with a modern day system that more fits our PERSENT day rollers.. Just my take on this thread.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2008 7:16 AM
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George R.
967 posts
Aug 17, 2008
7:17 AM
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Paul
Why should we change the scoring structure ??
because a guy who dont even compete says its broken ?
There is nothing wrong with the World Cup rules if they are applied right.
Every kit is flown under the same Rules , so how can there be a Problem?
The Novice
George
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