crystalpalace
376 posts
Aug 15, 2008
11:45 AM
|
I asked Elmer Smith several times where his rollers came from. He said they were puchased from Oakland,California. I heard a roller fancier moved from back East to the West coast and he lived in Oakland. The stock Elmer had didnt look like any of the Bill Pensom stock. Elmer reaised ash-red selfs with black showing in the feather shafts. I still have a few that will be bred this year. His original yellow rollers were ash in color. The white selfs were all bull eyed. All the self black were pearl eyed. Elmer culled every blue-black checker after it left the nest. Although he kept some blue bar badges and black badges. His almond rollers were the talk of the town and considered one of the best in the country. This stud was one of a kind in the United States of America. They could spin short medium and deep and were very frequent. I think Elmer stocked some roll-downs to help his young birds come into the roll early. Elmer bought a new stud of rollers in 1976 and they were recessive red selfs recessive red mottles recessive yellow selfs and recessive yellow mottles. They came from Mr. Beck if my memory is correct and he lived back East. Elmers original stock were small birds with the smallest pupils ever witnessed in the breed. Also all of his old stock possed pearl eyes. except the white selfs being bull eyed. The new stock was larger and deeper in keel and performed shorter in depth. Elmer mated the two families together in 1979 and some marvelous birds were bred and flown. His birthplace was Indiana in 1906 and at the age of eighteen he moved to Michigan. Then after a year he decided to move to sunny California. where he met his wife Mary. They lived in the Mariposa mountain side where they met but decided to move to Oakdale for employment. A small farm was purchased and they raised all kind of farm animals. Elmer bred and flew Birmingham Rollers and Racing Homers for at least seventy years His stock was shipped throughout the United States for many years. Everyone knew him in the westcoast and visiters were at his house nearly everyday. Every month a shipment of pigeons and farm animals were driven to Los Angeles. Elmer passed away at the age of eighty five years old. He was definely one of the most dedicated pigeon fanciers living in the United States. The American Roller was never bred or flown in his loft. My English rollers are not from George Mason but some of them look like his stock. All the new English stock is flown with my old American stock. The new stock is H style with good velosity and a few show better style with good velosity. The over all depth is good too.
Crystal Palace Roller Loft
Ray Sanchez.
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2008 11:47 AM
|
kopetsa
1386 posts
Aug 15, 2008
12:11 PM
|
Good Post! "Elmer culled every blue-black checker after it left the nest." why????
----------
Andrew
|
crystalpalace
377 posts
Aug 15, 2008
12:24 PM
|
Andrew,
Back in the 40's to 90's he culled all the blue-black checkers because he thought they looked to much like barn pigeons, and he didn't think they were an appealing color to his customers. Atleast that's what he told me.
----------
"Crystal Palace Roller Lofts"
Ray Sanchez
|
CVRC
462 posts
Aug 15, 2008
12:34 PM
|
thats weird he culled those colors.....good post....
----------
Cristian Castro
CM Loft
CVR
WWW.COACHELLAVALLEYROLLERS.COM
|
TimP
34 posts
Aug 15, 2008
1:15 PM
|
Ray, if u get a chance post some of those young birds pictures.
|
DeepSpinLofts
1490 posts
Jul 08, 2009
10:59 PM
|
Very enlightening post Ray... with some historical artifacts!
Ray =====> "Elmer bred and flew Birmingham Rollers and Racing Homers for at least seventy years."
Now that's quite a long dedication to a lifestyle of raising pigeons which spans many decades. I noticed where you stated that Elmer Smith had culled every blue-black checker after it left the nest from the 40's to the 90's. Something regarding how he thought they looked too much like barn pigeons.... and didn't think they were an appealing color to his customers.
Hmm... interesting.
Now to me that sounds rather odd if performance standards are set at a level higher than color standards, therefore how a bird particularly looks on the perch would be of no grave importance here.
According to Mr. Pensom, the best birds come 1st in Red Check and Dun, the most regular performers and mixtures of these colors, 2nd in Blue Check, the most stable, 3rd in Black, 4th - Tortoiseshell, 5th Dun bred Reds and so on. Pensom means any marking in which these are the basic colors.
Something we should acknowledge is that there is a loss or weakness in the pale colored birds. If one color is continually bred for then the performance gene pool can deteriorate. When there is a loss of soundness such as - too prolific spinning, and failure to kit..., then is the time to clash colors; staying within the same bloodlines.
NOTE: The pale colored birds should be mated to the darker, stronger colors. A Light Grizzle could be mated to a Red check or Dun; Blue Bar or pale Blue to a Black; Tortoiseshells and Light Blue Grizzle go with any color. Blue Checks go with Red Checks and Duns.
...also
When there is a loss in stability in the Red checks and Duns.... then always mate pale or soft to the hard or dark colors. If wild eyed birds are used instead of birds with the right expression, then the clashing of colors will do little good. Wild eyed birds should NEVER be used for stock.
Mr. Pensom stated the following below many years ago;
W.H. Pensom: "It is certain that colors and markings cannot be cultivated without a decided loss in the quality of deep spinning".
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
donnie james
557 posts
Jul 09, 2009
5:57 PM
|
hay ray and marus i really like your guys post very information and can you guys keep on posting the information like you guys are doing very good reading and learn from them ..............donny james
|
DeepSpinLofts
1494 posts
Jul 10, 2009
10:44 PM
|
Donny James... I see that you are very, very passionate about the Birmingham Roller Pigeon. That is a good thing. A very good thing!
Hmm....
As a matter of fact, most of us around here are quite passionate about the Birmingham Roller and will do whatever we can to genetically preserve this special acrobat of the air.
MEMO: Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark.
....also
Passions are the winds which fill the sails of the vessel; sometimes they sink it, but without them it would be impossible to make way.
Take care.....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
JEFF WILSON
9 posts
Jul 11, 2009
7:51 AM
|
marcus how are ya.hey can you tell me what a wild eyed bird looks like iam not try to be smart trying to learn. thanks jeff in my line of hardestys i have some that the pupil is not dead centered is this wild eyed
|
Scott
2343 posts
Jul 11, 2009
10:26 AM
|
Marcus, the hard and soft color theory means nothing if the goods aren't allready there, also all it means is charactor tends to ride hard and soft colors to some degree, but is far from 100 0/0 constant and is about as shallow of a breeding principle that there is.
Far to many try apply Pensoms writings as gospel without even knowing the full meaning or context of his message which like many things is next to impossible to convey with pen and paper , if it were as easy as what is in that little book we would all be flying champ kits.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2009 10:28 AM
|
j .wanless
857 posts
Jul 12, 2009
4:33 AM
|
hi all
scott you are spot on mate far too many people think bill pensom/s words are gospel.look at the w/c quality
factors this year.deanos + waynes are the highest quality so far.both of these fly blacks blues or cheqs
no other colour.as do 99 pc of people in my area.ive seen great rollers in most colours but not in the numbers as we have with the 3 colours as ive mentioned
things have changed hugely since pensoms day + its about time people realised that.
|
DeepSpinLofts
1495 posts
Jul 12, 2009
9:05 AM
|
Good morning Scott...
There are many conceivable methods to go about the business of breeding & flying topnotch spinners. It's important to understand that just about everyone who frequents these boards has decent birds.
....however
It is the adequate care (feeding, biogenetic breeding, training, flying and culling) that will bring out the very, very, very best in their particular family of performing rolling pigeons. Each family of birds is slightly different and will undoubtfully respond to stimuli quite differently. Based upon that premise, we must allow patience and room for error (mistakes) along the way.
Hmm....
You make a rather interesting point about hard and soft colors, but there's nothing shallow about having options in the breeding pen and sharing ideas with others who are prepared to learn. Ignorance is an issue going back hundreds of years in this nation and it has allowed many people to suffer greatly. I say do all you can to master the English language... (read, write, philosophy ...etc). Be somebody!
....moving on
I don't consider anything Pensom says to be gospel... as a matter of fact I don't even consider most of the stuff in the King James Bible as Gospel (but that's another issue). Once you've had the privilege to read Eastern Ancient Scrolls and Egyptian Heiroglyphics going back historically over 3,000 years... you tend to want to disregard much of the stuff that popped up during the Renaissance era. As a man with dignity and principles who's moral judgement comes from my inner strength, I still have much respect for William Hyla Pensom and the magnificently marvelous things he has done with domesticated pigeons. I feel that we all owe some respect to the man based upon that... if nothing else.
.....well anyway
The point I'm trying to make Scott is don't always try to criticize the messenger for only delivering a message.
You stated: ====> "next to impossible to convey with pen and paper , if it were as easy as what is in that little book we would all be flying champ kits."
Now to be honest with you Scott, everybody around here already knows that. Heck... some of these people don't even have time to read any books... and when it comes to using a pen & paper... they only use those items to sign off on bills that must be paid and what have not. I seldom use pen and paper myself. A keyboard and mousepad are my tools utilized to convey intellectual capital. I will not and have not (as of yet) advocated buying any of WH Pensom's books.
I think I've said enough for now and will get prepared for a morning jog. Regular exercise is one of the best methods known that can keep our bodies and minds in tip-top condition.
Enjoy your day Scott!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2009 9:08 AM
|
Scott
2348 posts
Jul 12, 2009
10:37 AM
|
Marcus, thanks for the reply, it looks like you are correct as I don't have a clue how to apply this so called biogenetic breeding to my program, matter of fact I don't even know what the word means.
Enjoy your day also buddy
Scott
(It is the adequate care (feeding, biogenetic breeding, training, flying and culling) that will bring out the very, very, very best in their particular family of performing rolling pigeons. Each family of birds is slightly different and will undoubtfully respond to stimuli quite differently. Based upon that premise, we must allow patience and room for error (mistakes) along the way.
Hmm....
You make a rather interesting point about hard and soft colors, but there's nothing shallow about having options in the breeding pen and sharing ideas with others who are prepared to learn. Ignorance is an issue going back hundreds of years in this nation and it has allowed many people to suffer greatly. I say do all you can to master the English language... (read, write, philosophy ...etc). Be somebody!
Marcus Deep Spin Lofts )
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2009 10:40 AM
|
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
461 posts
Jul 13, 2009
9:19 AM
|
Biogenetic breeding??? WTFO
----------
Keep em Spinning
Joe
|
J_Star
2013 posts
Jul 13, 2009
10:48 AM
|
We are making too much science out of really simple stuff.
Jay
|