155
751 posts
Aug 24, 2008
7:24 PM
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Question, I know not many people like to use Pensom name as a reference anymore, but in His writings He says a bird should roll correctly from the beginning. Does that mean I can safely cull any bird that changes wings or fly's above or below the team or doesn't snap out of roll and straight back to the kitt? How long do You wait for birds like mentioned above before You take them out. If You leave them in, will they cause other birds to act up? How hard should We be on them? I'm not looking for any B.S. here. If You have real answers, please respond. I like to hear from real roller Men that try to help. 3757 are You out there? please respond. Thank You
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EVILLOFT'S
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nicksiders
3127 posts
Aug 24, 2008
8:38 PM
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Number One: Pensom writings are still valued today and I think any new person to rollers should atleast read one book written by Pensom.
Number Two: I think if a young bird demonstrates cullable traits in the beginning they tend to stick with him more often than not. Now, there are exceptions, but I am not sold so much on waiting for the exceptions. Do we have the time to do so? Most of us do not.
Number Three: The quality bird should roll properly from the beginning is something that I took from Pensoms writings and found it to be generally true.
Number Four: Could you cull for certian flaws in the beginning and not wait to see if they will correct themselves? I think it will depend on the flaw and the breeders preference. I have seen them correct bumping as they matured, but how often do they have to rolldown until you are satisfied they are not going to correct it?
Number Five: The breeder is going to have to decide if he is going to compete or just raise rollers as pets. This decision will govern on what schedule you cull or not to cull. The competitor for obvious reason is less tolerant of flaws and will have to make that call much quicker than the non-competitor. Bad or flawed behavior will affect other birds in the kit. Quality is of prime importance to the competitor and he cannot and should not tolerate anything below his standard for very long.
Number Six: There ain't no number six(LOL)
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Aug 24, 2008 8:40 PM
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Ragin Rollers
55 posts
Aug 25, 2008
10:37 AM
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Hey 155,
What going on over there you fogot how to train rollers??????????
NO, really I am going to try to take acouple of rough riders and spend alittle time with them? because they roll real good just having a little trouble with them.
( kitting,flying high,bumping) u know the deal. Well really have some smoking birds here cant wait till it cools down to see who makes the grade or bounce them self right into the trash????????
RAGIN ROLLERS>>>>>>>>>>>>
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155
752 posts
Aug 25, 2008
3:08 PM
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lol russ you haveing roll loll your funny
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EVILLOFT'S
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3757
872 posts
Aug 25, 2008
5:06 PM
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Evils - Most people do not even understand what Pensom was doing or even care today? He was looking for the most outstanding bird as an individualist that could produce the same. To answer your question it is twofold. First, Pensom waited 18 months on a bird to demonstrate his or hers full potential as an outstanding performing but he did cull birds that did not act right in the kit. Most of those were taken to Henry Lopez to see if he could re-train them properly. So, you could say that he gave them a second chance in at a different local and with another trainer. Surprisingly, some got their act together but most were culls as he thought.
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155
753 posts
Aug 25, 2008
6:14 PM
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thanks 3757 for the good info
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EVILLOFT'S
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Scott
1112 posts
Aug 26, 2008
5:31 PM
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(He was looking for the most outstanding bird as an individualist that could produce the same. )
Isn't that what we all strive for ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
875 posts
Aug 26, 2008
7:54 PM
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I cannot say what everyone strives for. Secondly, how is my reponse a contridiction or stir up you or Pauls response? Did I not answer a question that was posed to me? Because I said this is what Bill strived for how is that saying that no one else strives for the same thing? It is amazing, and Paul you are right, how people misinterpret something and take it as if I am saying no one else strives for it. Amazing how interpretations are misquoted and turned around! Also, Scott is not right saying this is what we all strive for because we do not know what everyone breeds for?
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2008 7:57 PM
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Scott
1113 posts
Aug 26, 2008
9:03 PM
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Also, Scott is not right saying this is what we all strive for because we do not know what everyone breeds for?
Actualy you are right , not all breed for what you posted,but those that I respect where the birds are concerned most certainly do.
What you posted did not stir me up, it is just a given as nothing else should matter or play in.
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2008 9:04 PM
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George R.
983 posts
Aug 26, 2008
9:14 PM
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I thought Pensom (RIP) bred for TWIZZLERS ... MAN Im really Confused now >>>>>>>>
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2008 9:25 PM
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gotspin7
1772 posts
Aug 27, 2008
4:38 AM
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Paul, good post!
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2008 4:39 AM
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155
755 posts
Aug 27, 2008
9:36 AM
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fhtfire
So what Your saying basically is that the Pensom strain is a thing of the past, and the birds today are much better and really have no place in current competition. thanks for the information. Pau, how long did You know Bill pensom and what did You think of His birds when You saw Him fly them?
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EVILLOFT'S
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fhtfire
1473 posts
Aug 27, 2008
11:48 AM
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Evil lofts....WHAT????
That is my whole point..everyone talks about this and that and has never seen his birds fly....Pensom birds are a thing of the Past....last time I checked he is no longer breeding pigeons...LOL>....anyway..I am confused by your post.....never said that I met him and never said that I seen his birds fly...
as for the other post....I really do think that there are more birds good kits and birds out there and again....He is a LEGEND in his own time. I would have given my left nut to meet the guy..because the first thing i would do is open his book and ask what his true meaning was....then I throw him a toy stencil laced roller and say..what do you think....lol...kidding...oh and I never said they had no place for competition..I am a competitor..I am saying that there are MORE good birds out there...then in the past.
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2008 11:49 AM
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fhtfire
1474 posts
Aug 27, 2008
11:51 AM
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Evil,
You did not get me stirred up..I was thinking out loud...your post triggered something about everyone always bringing up Pensom....etc...your post was good and I tried to answer it in my other ramblings..LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1475 posts
Aug 27, 2008
11:51 AM
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Evil,
You did not get me stirred up..I was thinking out loud...your post triggered something about everyone always bringing up Pensom....etc...your post was good and I tried to answer it in my other ramblings..LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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3757
878 posts
Aug 27, 2008
6:03 PM
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Evil - There are a number of individuals that have seen his birds or birds he bred directly fly (Herb Sparkes, Bruce Cooper, Carl Dorton, Dave Sanchez, Ron Rozadowski, Paul Gomez.......) I remember when Danny McKenzie flew an old hen (I believe she was a 1963 barren hen off of 255) and Willie ask me to go and see what Danny wanted for his birds (At the time we did not know she was barren) and Danny threw the entire kit up (We were at the Southwest Pigeon fanciers of which I became a member in the 1970's) and that hen could burn. Danny did not live but a few blocks from the clubhouse.
Paul Gomez flew quit a few birds bred by Pensom, and a score of others. At one time Bill Patrick was a flying fanatic and he flew breeders bred by Bill on off season when he lived in Manhattan Beach. Bill Patrick was the kindest individual I ever knew and I miss him dearly.
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2008 6:10 PM
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155
758 posts
Aug 27, 2008
6:30 PM
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3757
thanks for all the help and the good info you give as the
new guys in this roller hobby.
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EVILLOFT'S
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3757
879 posts
Aug 27, 2008
6:57 PM
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Evils - I would like to add that to me the best birds then of the highest velocity are equal to the best ones of high velocity today in my experience and opinion. An individaul who is a good friend of my best friend (who by the way has been around for 50 years)watched some birds near my home from a top kit competition flier and he said that the old timers would have been proud of that kit and the flier had 6-7 true spinners in his team and the others were also great spinners. This flier had most of his team with great spinners and 6-7 of the highest calibre. The individual who watched the kit knows quality and I respect his judgement.
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2008 7:00 PM
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warpspeed
57 posts
Aug 27, 2008
7:11 PM
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thanks 3757 you are more than welcome to come by anytime you wish and see for yourself.
abel ibarra
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3757
880 posts
Aug 27, 2008
7:34 PM
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Abel - Usted está invitado. One thing about me Abel is I am honest in my word and judgement. Thanks for the offer and I will take you up on it.
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155
759 posts
Aug 27, 2008
7:54 PM
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3757, this is what I've heard. so why do so many that never met or seen MR. Pensom's birds fly, say they are a thing of the past? When Pensom describes depth, velocity and tightness of spin isn't that what We are striving for today? Bill said in His writings that the birds should kitt so tight that You couldn't see through them and that the birds should all work together. How can that be out dated information. I really think its a jealousy issue for some. I just want to learn all I can about training and breeding. If pensom book isn't good for teaching what book is? 3757 thanks for Your response. I'm glad Your still on this site, its nice to hear from someone who tries to help.
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EVILLOFT'S
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Scott
1114 posts
Aug 27, 2008
8:15 PM
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Evil,other than the basics no book in the world is going to teach what you need to know about these birds.
As for breeding and training that is something that you have to learn and develope a feel for, it is all hands on stuff for the most part.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 27, 2008 8:19 PM
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PR_rollers
1535 posts
Aug 27, 2008
8:49 PM
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Jose you so right about that what Pensom describe back then. he use the words from Lewis Wright that a true Birmingham roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a Spinning Ball.. thats what strive for back then and this is what we strive for now.
---------I like this part when i read his book ,
quote" The breeding of pigeons is generally accepted as a simple hobby providing many hours of pleasurable relaxation at a small cost.but it also goes further than that.since we have fancier among us who take the hobby very seriously and they consider their efforts something of a duty to mankind.It is to these fanciers we owe a deep debt of gratitude ,because by their skill and love for high class stock we are able to enjoy a product with which to further and extend the high traditions of breeding live stock, even of so small a significance as pigeons,and enjoy a place in the sun which only men who know the value of a hobby can enjoy..
Now I just love these words. Pensom is a legend .legends are suppose to be talk about all the time thats why they are legends we can't forget them he pass the torch now its up to us to continue with the added attractions of new ideas..now check this out .
The top rung of the ladder is not far away if a fancier is ambitious enough. although he will not find the road an easy one to travel,and neither will he achieve results over night. There is no easy way to successful pigeon breeding, and neither is there any hard and fast rule to follow. At the outset the potential fancier must realize that success depends upon himself and his ability to interpret the ideal,and the possibilities of producing same with the material at his disposal.now Jose for those who think they can buy the best with money or because its easier to get birds today. The fact that money will buy the best of stock should in no way be regarded as the beginning and end of establishing a stud of high class pigeons,and as in most things,It is easy to ruin a stud of first class pigeons in one or two seasons which may very well have taken a lifetime to create..
I never met Mr Pensom but when you read his books you wish you had .he sounds like a Good man an Honest man .you feel like you know him if you a good man yourself.takes one to know one..
hope you enjoy his writing i printed here from his book i don't know if you have it so I thought i give you some to read. ..
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3757
881 posts
Aug 27, 2008
9:15 PM
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Evils - I was taught that if you cannot say anything positive about someone do not say anything. I am a Bill Pensom fanatic and I am glad that I was able to meet and be great friends with many of the great rollermen who I respect and admire. My two good friends Bruce Cooper and Herb Sparkes are also fanatics for Bill Pensom and his work and I will tell anyone that Bill Pensom is the reason we are where we are today. Remember, before Bill came to America the Americans were flying rollers like tipplers for hours and were not concentrating on high velocity birds like we are today. Also, guess what, they had been doing that type of flying for about 65 years until the imports were shipped here by father Schlattmann, the PRC was formed, and people started following Bill's teaching which he learned in the Black Country. If we were still doing it the old American way we would be flying deep, deep, long flying birds with hardly any frequency.
The advice that Scott gave about hands on training is also the main point. You have to use what you have learned by hands on experience.
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gotspin7
1775 posts
Aug 28, 2008
4:29 AM
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Pr, good post this is the part I agree with 100%
There is no easy way to successful pigeon breeding, and neither is there any hard and fast rule to follow. At the outset the potential fancier must realize that success depends upon himself and his ability to interpret the ideal,and the possibilities of producing same with the material at his disposal.now Jose for those who think they can buy the best with money or because its easier to get birds today. The fact that money will buy the best of stock should in no way be regarded as the beginning and end of establishing a stud of high class pigeons,and as in most things,It is easy to ruin a stud of first class pigeons in one or two seasons which may very well have taken a lifetime to create..
3757, I will say that I have to give you some credit this go around, and that I will agree with you on this one, good point!
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
883 posts
Aug 28, 2008
5:52 AM
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Sal - What did I say precisely (my exact quote) that you disagreed with before? I am curious.
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PR_rollers
1536 posts
Aug 28, 2008
8:05 AM
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Scott advise about on first hand training
-.is dead right ,no book can do that for you..
As quoted by Mr Pensom
"At the outset the potential fancier must realize that success depends upon himself and his ability to interpret the ideal,and the possibilities of producing same with the material at his disposal---------
Doc good post..If it wasn't for his teaching I probably still be flying my high tipplers today ..oh how boring watching those birds fly for hours on end .now i have a reason to get a stiff neck. looking for quality in my birds but with a hammock beside me so i can lay straight and enjoy under the sun or under a shade coconut tree.which ever its my choice....
Ralph
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3757
884 posts
Aug 28, 2008
9:07 AM
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Ralph - That is so true. Also, the NBRC was first created by Bill Pensom when he was in England. After he left Bob Evans he started it again here with Bus Lutes and others so we owe him a great deal of gratitude.
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