kcfirl
493 posts
Sep 25, 2008
12:16 PM
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Cliff,
did I read that Eldon is judging the finals? Again? And immediately following the World Cup? You have go to be kidding!
Ken Firl
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155
801 posts
Sep 25, 2008
12:31 PM
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yea he is....
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EVILLOFT'S
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Ballrollers
1514 posts
Sep 25, 2008
1:24 PM
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And I hope you read the reasons why, Ken......I asked 5-6 other men before asking Eldon. Good Judges are hard to find, especially those that can leave home and work for weeks at a time. You guys need to start retiring and give Eldon a rest!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2008 1:30 PM
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TimP
64 posts
Sep 25, 2008
7:09 PM
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It's only going to harder as time goes on retirement ages are getting pushed back later and later, plus it's hard enough to get local judges to come out just a few miles away. That's why I agree with Cliffs idea on grouping regions together for a playoff style finish u could get it done faster and the judges would not be gone from home as long.
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Electric-man
2047 posts
Sep 25, 2008
8:04 PM
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I take my hat off to Eldon for stepping up again! I'm sure hes making plenty of sacrifices to do this. I don't know how he makes the time!
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Val
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fhtfire
1542 posts
Sep 25, 2008
8:11 PM
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Like I said...My hat too is off to Eldon...but I think having the same judge over and over is not the best thing in the world. I would have kept asking more then 5 or 6 before I went to someone who has judged the finals ...twice in a row and the World cup in between....no disrespect to Eldon at all...but man...come on....out of all our members we could not find some new blood....anyway....again..no disrespect to Eldon AT ALL....it is just not the best to have the same person over and over no matter if it was Bill Pensom himself.
Paul
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Electric-man
2048 posts
Sep 25, 2008
8:33 PM
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I agree! I knew you weren't disrespecting Eldon! I know you are a great guy Paul and you are completly devoted to the hobby! I'm one of your followers bro!
When Paul speaks.....I listen!
It was just my way of saying that Eldon visits this site, and we would be loosing a great hobbiest if we're not careful how we use our words and offend him!
Hope you didn't take me wrong! I wasn't pointing at anyone!I was just saying, be careful guys!
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Val
Last Edited by on Sep 25, 2008 8:35 PM
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fhtfire
1543 posts
Sep 25, 2008
10:55 PM
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Val,
Thanks for the kind words....but my ears are always open to learning new things....anyway....I agree...I had a great time with Eldon when he was down for the W/C...he hung out with me before his flight and we talked hot rods and pigeons....well what is done is done...Looking forward to our upcoming fly on Oct 3-5th
rock and ROLL
Paul
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SpinCityRollers
166 posts
Sep 25, 2008
11:34 PM
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Its good that he stepped upI tired hearingall the crying fly the birds and let him do his job and hopefully you win thats it !!!
Or step up and you do it
The birds will speak for themselves!!!
I hope to make the finals again and visit with you again Eldon thanks so much for your support!!!
Your freind in the hobby
Marlon Madmax Garnett
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Otis
155 posts
Sep 26, 2008
7:21 AM
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Hey Paul, In a perfect world, and I challenge you to find one, we would be inundated with quality, time free, willing and giving judges such as Eldon. Unfortunately we don't, and at this time he's the best there is, that constantly steps up to the plate to do this thankless job. If you don't like it the way it is, extend yourself to recruit others willing to give of themselves. For you to blatantly express your displeasure, without seeking some clarity, indicates you've never discussed, nor listened to Cliff constantly indicate the difficulties in finding a judge who is willing and able to do the herculean task WC & FF's demand.
Eldon happens to be a semi-retired business owner that loves rollers and the men & women who fly them. The old saying "Before you abuse, criticize and confuse-walk a mile in my shoes"! Otis
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BA Rollers
68 posts
Sep 26, 2008
9:24 AM
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Otis, I think was Paul is trying to say is most people know Eldon can be very, very generous with his scoring which in the end doesn't really reflect well on the breed and competition as a whole. Occasional laps around the generosity tree are good to help give balance to the scoring grinches. But back to back to back, he and I'm sure others fear is not a good thing. To half the people who don't care about the score, its fine. For others who continually try to educate other fanciers about how to judge quality and the progression of judging to filter the quality from the chaff, it doesn't sit well. Its kind of like, well another year of generous waterfall scoring for some people who expect a national competition to be a higher level of quality and scrutiny. The bottom line is the best kit will never win under generous judging. We all know this now. So to some people it taints the value of the competition and any achievements in lieu of just having someone to judge.
When we get over the kum-by-yah be thankful someone wants to do it, is the result a reflection of the progress of the breed, or just the baggage that comes along with having a great roller guy be the only one to offer his services.
This past spring I was at a guys house and heard Eldon tell the owner he had never seen a kit of Horner pigeons he liked. The owner told him he was flying some in the kit he was watching. Eldon stopped watching. This wasn't a competition, it was after a finals kit had been judged. Several of us were kind of taken back by that. Nice guy no doubt, but he shouldn't make public comments like that when he is out judging. It shows bias.
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Alohazona
452 posts
Sep 26, 2008
10:15 AM
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BA,I am ALL for quality judges.The grinchy judges are just as bad if not worse than the generous ones,in my opinion.The excuses they give for not calling something are always specifically their own line of BS.Either you see what they are saying or you don't.
I don't know how many times I heard"those are Jaconettes aren't they".Every judge has their set of pet peeves or bias opinions,every one of them!The best thing you can do is be quiet before,during and after a comp,take the critisism,apply it for betterment or chuck it in the can.
This I can say for certain,the best scoring kit was the best kit, and the judging was consistant,grinch or no grinch.
Thank you Eldon for your dedication,time,effort,you are a true rollerman......Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
453 posts
Sep 26, 2008
10:30 AM
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Val,Eldon makes time because he is dedicated.I'm not sure he is making sacrifices,no body twisted his arm.I am sure he love's being with roller people....Aloha,Todd
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fhtfire
1546 posts
Sep 26, 2008
11:38 AM
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HEY OTIS BACK OFF JACK!!! I dont get pissed very often and your post has pissed me off. No where did I say anything negative about Eldon....He is someone I consider a friend and he will be treated with respect and dignity in region 9B...just because someone says they wish it was not the same judge three flys straight is not a dis to anybody...and as far as finding a judge....you have a whole year to do it....if you cant find someone out of all the members then there is a problem.
Dont insult me as like I am a retard and have never run anything in my life...I have been a leader most of my life...from 4-H, to senior class president, to running car shows, president of numerous clubs. I have organized and run wrestling tournaments, body building events, charity events, Class reunions, Pigeon Flys...should I keep going.....So I know how much work it takes and I know sometime you have to make 50 phone calls....I have even taught classes on being a leader and organizing events....I know the hard work that it takes...and I know that you go more bitching then you do a pat on the back
I tell you what Otis....If I can pull up to a 3 story building on fire....assume command....set up staging...strike a greater alarm, and get 8 fire engines, 2 ladder trucks, 50firefighters and a rescue to be on the same page and put the fire out....I can sure as hell find a judge...lOL...and all the decisions are made in split seconds with no time to second guessing.
REREAD my post...never did I blame Cliff....or belittle Eldon....but I have every right and region 9B director to ask why.....but Most sporting events or hobbies of the caliper usually do have the same judge year after year or event after event.....that is EVENT PLANNING 101....So...dont try and stir up shit when there is no shit in the pot.
AGAIN>>>>NO DISRESPECT TO ELDON>>>OR CLIFF>>>>JUST GAVE AN OPINION!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Otis
157 posts
Sep 26, 2008
2:25 PM
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Hey Paul, Don't get your panties all in a bunch! Chill out! That wasn't that harsh to illicit your reaction, I can get harsh and that wasn't! I'm also aware of how much you give to the hobby/sport, and I commend you for that. My premise was only intended to go easy on the very ones that do overextend themselves until such time as the judging pool expands. No one was attacking you personally, but unintended criticism sometimes carries a sharp edge. You also happen to be a member(FF) of the very few I call real heroes on this earth. I like to keep it positive until something really negative is deserving of my ire! Yours in the sport! Otis
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fhtfire
1547 posts
Sep 26, 2008
5:22 PM
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"For you to blatantly express your displeasure, without seeking some clarity, indicates you've never discussed, nor listened to Cliff constantly indicate the difficulties in finding a judge who is willing and able to do the herculean task WC & FF's demand."
I never expressed a blatant displeasure...I was just saying that we need to make sure we mix it up. I have listened to cliff indicate the difficulties in finding a judge. 6 members out of thousands he contacted....again..it is not displeasure it was more surprise.....but what is done is done and we will move on.
Anyway...I had just got of the phone with me ex...so enough said...I was already wound tighter then a snare drum...lol...sorry to turn the crank..loL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1171 posts
Sep 28, 2008
8:38 AM
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Why not just go down the list of the top 10 flyers for last year ?
Was this years judge voted on by the EC or just appointed in by a few?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1517 posts
Sep 28, 2008
8:06 PM
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Guys,
It looks easier than it is.....to find a final judge.
1) Are all good flyers.... good judges? 2) How many good judges can be away from family and work for weeks at a time, and even may miss Thanksgiving? 3) How many good judges WANT the responsibility of a finals judge? 4) How many good judges have a history of acting as Ambassadors for the hobby? 5) How many good judges have NOT PUBLICLY admitted to or spoken of a color bias, family bias, etc.that could influence their objectivity in scoring kits? 6) How many good judges are respected by a majority of the flyers? 7) The Bylaws call for the finals judge be the "MOST QUALIFIED" available. 8) Often times, many of the most qualified are NOT available, can't get off work, can't leave the family during the holiday season, don't want the responsibility, their eyesight is in question, or they have openly shown bias for this or that, which would bring their judging into question. Like the Marines..... We are looking for a few good men.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2008 12:12 PM
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SiDLoVE
304 posts
Sep 28, 2008
11:04 PM
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I vote in Scott Campell for final judge,,,lol..Pack ur bags Scott.Be sure to bring your football uniform and ur helmet, some guys might not like a strick judge ...LMAO
djsid
Last Edited by on Sep 28, 2008 11:07 PM
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Scott
1172 posts
Sep 29, 2008
5:42 AM
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In other words Cliff a couple of people hand chose the judge with no input from the EC and the above is your excuse, suggesting that there is a better option than those in the top 10 fly positions silly to say the least.
At the very least was the EC should have asked to come up with a list of those willing ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2008 10:19 AM
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Alohazona
454 posts
Sep 29, 2008
9:33 AM
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Politics,leave it for the Politicians.Just fly your birds.....Aloha,Todd
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Scott
1173 posts
Sep 29, 2008
10:20 AM
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It has nothing at all to do with politics Todd.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1519 posts
Sep 29, 2008
12:05 PM
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Scott,
Tell me how you found a judge for your region when you were an RD. Did you find several guys who you felt were qualified to judge and ask your flyers to vote on which one they wanted? Great, if you did. I suspect that in the absence of a By-law or Policy to guide you that you did the best you could to call and ask guys that you believed to be qualified. Well, the Fly Director must do the same thing in the absence of a By-law or Policy that gets the EC involved. All the Fly Director has for guidance, currently, is what has been done, HISTORICALLY, and the words "the best qualified judge available." In the past, if the 20 bird winner declined and the 11 bird winner declined, it fell to the National Fly Director to choose the best qualified judge available. That is exactly what I did....as others have in the past. You do remember when the National Fly Director chose himself, don't you? Maybe next time I'll do the same.
To my knowledge, choosing a finals judge has never been a decision that involved the NBRC EC. When the situation was that both winners declined, the job of finding a finals judge, was up to the National Fly Director. Can you recall how it was done, where the EC was involved? No one on the EC told me NOT to go find the most qualified judge available. I would welcome EC evolvement if that was policy. I find nothing to support ideas that I should ask the EC to help in the selection process or even validate who I selected to do the job. If you can show me where I failed to follow the By-laws/past history of choosing a judge if the winners declined, I will take that into consideration the next time this situation presents itself. Perhaps you and your RD should present the EC with a more formal procedure for chosing a finals judge if both winners decline. We may not have both winners decline for years or they may both decline this year. I see that this year's World Cup winner has also declined to judge the World Cup next year, so you can see that this is a problem accross the sport. If you think my efforts require so little effort, you are more than welcome to volunteer to do this job. LOL. There is no written fly policy on how to chose a finals judge if both previous winners decline. If you wish to submit your idea of asking the top 10 in the 20 and the 11 , to the EC, get Paul to do that. I personally feel that just winning or being in the top 10 does NOT automatically qualify a man as a good judge. That's why most decline...because they know they are not competent judges. Asking the EC to make the decision is probably not the best way to get the job done expediently and efficiently. But our past policy has been to allow the winner the option of judging the next finals fly or at the very least, his name placed on a short list to men to be considered. But, BTW, I do council with men I respect, on who they think is the best, most qualified, judge available. Tell you what, the very next time, I need to chose a finals judge..... I'll call you and get your valued opinion of the men on my list. How's that?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2008 12:13 PM
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BA Rollers
73 posts
Sep 29, 2008
12:46 PM
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Cliff, I have not talked to a single person yet who is in agreement with your decision. And I've talked to or overheard quite a number of people's opinion on the matter. Most of the time they bring it up as it seems to be a contintious beef for some people. They like the choice for the person who he is, but most feel the overly generous scoring is killing the integrity of the hobby. You will be catching a ton of heat on this one, especially when those ridiculus 2,000 points scores are given out like candy canes at christmas...again. We can all do the soul searching integrity thing and be "nice guys". But ask yourself sincerely, does that type of judging, which clearly is the most liberal in the hobby, grow the sport in the right direction? You know it is not good for the hobby when the general concensus throughout the conversation channels is....if you make the finals....just set them up to roll hot and all over the place and you will do well. That's sad man.
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fhtfire
1551 posts
Sep 29, 2008
5:50 PM
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Ok guys...I think this horse has been beat to death....the fact of the matter is....we all want judges that are in the middle...not to tight (like Scott)..lol and not to loose. What is done is done.....CLiff did what he had to do with the tools that he had in front of him. If it has never been brought up to the EC before then why should it now. I sure as hell would not want Cliffs job..LOL....the dentist part would be ok so I could make the big bucks...so....Eldon is judging and should be commended for taking a chunk of his life to meet up with Pigeon guys.
If I ever win you can bet your ass I would be taking some vacation and judging the nation....what an experience to go to many different lofts from coast to coast....but I have to win first...lol
Judging is not brain surgery...and to be honest....the key to being a judge is being consistent.....if you are tight..be tight with everyone...if you are loose...be loose with everyone.....
So...I say we let this horse die in piece...'
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Ballrollers
1520 posts
Sep 29, 2008
5:54 PM
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Maybe you're right BA. Maybe we shoulda just cancelled the competition because A FEW men like you don't care for the only man who would step up for the job.......yeah....just set 'em up hot.....easy enough....no problem! Sure....go ahead and shoot off your mouth until Eldon hears about your comments and tells the World Cup and the NBRC to kiss his ass because he is not appreciated....sure, that makes a lot of sense...let's dissprespect one of the most dedicated and committed men to the sport of flying competition rollers and who is almost single-handedly keeping it afloat at times....By the way, please forward a list of names to me of the men you consulted, including yourself and Scott, who dissaprove of Eldon as judge, so that I can put them on the list as potential judges for next year. Otherwise, I tend to ignore whiners and snivelers who won't put action where there mouth is. God knows...we have plenty of 'em.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2008 6:01 PM
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BA Rollers
74 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:02 PM
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Does that mean that every person who bitches about Bush is supposed to step up and run for President?
That "step up or shut up" line is a hollow rebuttal. You can do whatever you want to do Cliff, you are in the driver's seat. But if someone doesn't approve of your decisons don't think that people will just sit by and keep their traps shut. The world doesn't work that way.
As Paul said, it is what it is now and nothing will change that. So be it. But it doesn't mean that people have to agree with it.
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Scott
1175 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:09 PM
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(By the way, please forward a list of names to me of the men you consulted, including yourself and Scott, who dissaprove of Eldon as judge)
Where in any of my posts did I say anything about Eldon Cliff ? I didn't , don't make it out as something that it isn't (as I'm sure you will) , my problem here is how it was done.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Alohazona
455 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:12 PM
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BA,Eldon is a fly judge,Director-at large,Hall of famer and if my memory serves me correct a past NBRC President.How many phone calls need to be made when others are not on the same parallel.The clock is ticking when fly schedules are being set.Who is to say that eyebrows would not be raised for a 10th place or 11th place guy judging.
I'm sure it was not Cliff's first choice for Eldon to judge consecutively.So what,do we scrap the fall fly this year or do we fly?
Look at Eldon's qualifications above,did kids in a candy store say to Eldon"go to the gumball machine,your a hall of famer"If Eldon was good enough for the WC that makes him even more experienced than anyone to take on the Fall Fly this same year.
Scott,I'm a little suprised,well kinda suprised,that your sinking your teeth into this thread.Eldon gave you an 893 good enough for 5th in the world.I thought this was a kiddie fly.Eldon will do a good job!what are you guys soooo worried about....Aloha,Todd
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Scott
1176 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:12 PM
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Paul, the EC wasnt used in the past because there wasn't a forum setup for them where there is access like there is now.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2008 6:13 PM
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Scott
1177 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:16 PM
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Todd, my stance for both the W/C and the F/F has and allways will be that the judges come from the top flyers from those flys, for some reason some have a problem with that.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1521 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:29 PM
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BA,
As you well know, It makes little difference who the finals judge is, someone will complain the judge is to loose...some will complain he is too tight. I accept the fact that I cannot make every one happy with the decisions I make. I assume that responsibility because it goes with the job. I made several inquiries as to the availability of other men I thought were qualified, but due to all kinds of reasons, all declined, including last year's winners. One potential candidate did not decline until the second week in September! Eldon has seen more kits in all kinds of situations all over the world; and he has more experience than anyone I know. He has a working knowledge of the NBRC fly rules and how to apply them. I know that roller judging is very subjective and I understand that. Who among us has more field judging under pressure? More importantly, who among us is 100% correct in all their judging calls? I am certain, Eldon calls them as he sees them. Sure, I like to see different judges, judge my birds, we all do. But Both last years winners declined, and all the men I asked, also declined. The way I see it Eldon saved our bacon..... again. Just like he did with the WC... again. If those of you who disagree with my choice, please contact your RD and let the EC work on if they want to address this issue. The best judge available was Eldon and we should all be grateful he can take the time and trouble to do the job, most men can't or won't. Sometimes you just have to learn to keep your opinions to yourself, rather than publishing them on a public forum, when they have the potential to do the hobby more harm than good, BA. JMHO.
Cliff
Cliff
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Ballrollers
1522 posts
Sep 29, 2008
6:42 PM
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So, Scott......you mean if Ken Billings had been selected as judge, you would have been equally inquistive about how and why the decision was made? Yeah, right!!!!!
Incidentally, I have no basic problem with going down the top ten. I just disagree with it as a criteria for selecting judges. There is also no policy to guide the Fly Director at the moment. And, as I said before, the winning of the fly does not a judge make. Neither of last year's winners have EVER done any judging. That's why they had the common sense to decline. Imagine if someone like that (a rookie in judging) were selected, based on your criteria by placing in the top ten in the fly, decided to sieze the opportunity to travel the country and "try his hand" at judging.....that would be an interesting finals fly woudn't it! I think we can find better criteria than that for our selections.
Cliff
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J_Star
1760 posts
Sep 30, 2008
12:33 PM
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Cliff, Great job you are doing and excellent choice of judge. Eldon is an excellent judge and good people. No reason to continue a debate about this issue because it is a none issue.
Jay
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Scott
1178 posts
Sep 30, 2008
1:15 PM
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Yes Cliff, I say no problem with them judging, if they are good enough to build good enough teams to win then they are good enough to judge, and that holdS true with anyone of them on the upper end.
As for Kenny, I wouldn't want him judging my birds in such a fly, this thing most certainly should have gone to the EC at the very least,it isn't your place to choose a judge.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2008 2:18 PM
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Square
513 posts
Sep 30, 2008
3:01 PM
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Cliff, WOW what a position you have...LOL I just wanted to thank you agian for your time and real conversation,, tryed my best not to let my emountions take over but you know how it goes,,,Im looking foward to whatever happens..I know with this comp thing it's either sink of swim.. and believe me Im doing the breath stroke..I will give my word that if things dont work out I wont be discourged... REALLY... and I will continue to support all who are dedicated to this sport../ hobbie.. TRULY... I just want it to be known Ive never Been "BIG BOY'ED" and im not about to let it happen now.. point blank !And if it just so happens it wont be the last of me I assure all that!!!LOL I thank you all truly for youre time and will continue to fight for what I believe is right and for our rollers till the end....
TRULY.... BOOKER
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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rtwilliams
222 posts
Sep 30, 2008
4:08 PM
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Cliff
Thank you for taking on the task of organizing the fall fly. I am sure it is a head ache. I wish you the best in over coming the obstacles that placed in your way while trying to get this event off in an organized manner. T
Thank you again for your efforts.
Eldon
The time you have taken away from family, friends and birds to support this hobby/sport is amazing. I am glad that their are people like you who are willing to tramp all over the country just to look at some pigeons. I hope that someday you will stand under my birds.
Thank you also for your efforts this year as a judge. \
I hope that in the future I have the experience and the time to do the things you both have done this year to support the Hobby/sport of roller pigeons.
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RT Williams
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Ballrollers
1524 posts
Sep 30, 2008
6:25 PM
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RT, Jay, Booker,
I appreciate your expression of appreciation for the effort of those of us who are trying to make things happen in a positive way in our hobby. Thanks, guys. It means a lot. Never forget that.
Booker, the EC vote is under way. It looks like we are going to succeed, so I would go ahead and plan for your new region to fly!
Scott,
I am very sorry to have to be the one to tell you that you are not the National Fly Director. You are not on the NBRC EC; not the NBRC president; not the NBRC vice-president; and your opinion of how I conduct the office that I have been appointed to run for three years now, does not really concern me. I was not appointed to make you happy, and I know that must be a painful realization for you. If it is your opinion that this office should be run differently, then may I suggest that you contact your RD to bring this issue before the NBRC EC. Until any action is taken to the contrary, I will continue to do what I think is most fair and right for the majority of the flyers accross the country in the conducting of our national championship....and without any regard for how you feel about it. Are we clear? I really hope that it is just the fact that you are passing through the final phase of male menopause that makes you conduct yourself the way that you do, buddy. LOL!
Cliff
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Scott
1180 posts
Sep 30, 2008
7:45 PM
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Menopause no , but I have quit chewing after 30 years, good thing it wasn't a habit, Thanks for doing the Job !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2008 8:09 PM
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Ballrollers
1525 posts
Oct 01, 2008
7:33 AM
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Well then. That certainly explains a lot. LOL! And you are most welcome, Scott.
Cliff
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