pisto
97 posts
Oct 11, 2008
6:48 PM
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if i were to use some of this ruby blood with something different but similar,would it boost up my strain or am i going backwards?or should the ruby strain stay untouched?
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Santandercol
3146 posts
Oct 11, 2008
6:57 PM
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Personally,I would'nt mix 'em.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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fresnobirdman
126 posts
Oct 11, 2008
7:15 PM
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never hurts to try right?
you can always make better birds, theres nothin to lose....right?
~~Fresnobirdman~~
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Windjammer Loft
422 posts
Oct 11, 2008
7:21 PM
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pisto...First of all, what are you trying to accompish??
Secondly, would you explain to me how something different can be similar??
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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pisto
101 posts
Oct 11, 2008
7:24 PM
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im trying to produce better birds.secondby similar i mean body type,expresion,temperment, etc.
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Windjammer Loft
423 posts
Oct 11, 2008
7:42 PM
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pisto.....most of the time when a different family is introduced to the existing family,it is to better the quility of the spin or to introduce color.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2008 4:32 AM
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Oldfart
842 posts
Oct 11, 2008
7:43 PM
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pisto, if you want to mix the Ruby's, then I would suggest mixing then with the other Ruby's you have! Duh!!
Thom
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pisto
104 posts
Oct 11, 2008
8:21 PM
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oldfart......what are you talking about.
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kopetsa
1754 posts
Oct 11, 2008
8:30 PM
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Is there a such thing as No Name rollers?
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Andrew
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PR_rollers
1721 posts
Oct 11, 2008
9:13 PM
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Which strain needs improvement?..why don't you improve the strain within the strain depending on what is needed..If you haven't have the birds long enough to know them you might be taking a step backwards you must proceed with caution in the laboratory..
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Ralph
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Hector Coya
258 posts
Oct 11, 2008
9:24 PM
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The Rubys like all others where developed by mixing strains,
They are all a mix af strain to get sertin caractaristics somone wants.
Rubys go back to Pensom like many other strains so they should mix good.Hector Coya-SGVS
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Norm_Knox
206 posts
Oct 11, 2008
9:51 PM
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Why re-envent a wheel??? If they have been proven to do good improve them by tight breeding and puting "right" pairs together!!! Just my opinion ...
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N/A Loft
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pisto
108 posts
Oct 11, 2008
9:59 PM
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thank everybody.
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PR_rollers
1727 posts
Oct 11, 2008
10:01 PM
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Norm_Knox you took the words right out of my mouth..
Why re-invent a wheel,, I read your profile says you been with birds since you got out the hospital .you mean as a baby out the hospital or just recently came out the hospital.?
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Ralph
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tou_vang
429 posts
Oct 11, 2008
10:12 PM
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would you be going backwards if you breed a ruby male to a sal estrada hen?
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Norm_Knox
207 posts
Oct 11, 2008
10:17 PM
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Hey Ralph I was born into a family that fooled with pigeons. Im a third generation of a pigeon nut. LOL
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N/A Loft
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kopetsa
1760 posts
Oct 11, 2008
10:47 PM
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LOL Norm I'm a 3 generation too.. :) Rollers have been in the family since the ealy 1900's.. :)
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Andrew
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fhtfire
1586 posts
Oct 11, 2008
10:57 PM
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I have crossed the Rubys with great success....to me the fun part of the hobby is trying new things...if you never try you never know....
I have crossed my Rubys with Morts and a couple Chuck Roe's with what I feel are working out pretty good....I call them my Flashover strain...This year every pair was a cross except two and they were Pure Mort. Next year I will switch and have two Pure pairs of Rubys and the rest crosses.
I started out with young birds and then I started out crossing a couple pairs for one year and I liked the results...then I took the best crosses and bred them with great results...then I bred them back to one side or the other using Grand parents, Cousins, and Aunts and Uncles.....and then yet swapping them again....and then picking the best 3/4 blood from each side and breeding back to a cross and then back to one side and then other.....breeding best to best. I only try a select few in the stock loft and I get very picky. One year I only picked two birds a Pure Ruby Hen and a Pure Mort Cock and then the crossing began.
You always keep your pure base so that you have something to fall back on if you make a mistake...you can go back to your base.....so I make sure each year I rotate making some pure Rubys and Some Pure Morts....and fly them out and then give them a try in the stock loft...that way I am always keeping fresh pure blood..I do not want to make the mistake of my base getting too old and then not being able to produce and then you just ripped the spine out of your program.....so keep breeding pure to keep younger breeders of pure blood.
So....I say why not try...if it does not work..and it usually shows in about two years time...then either try something different or keep it pure and try and improve the pure strain to your liking. ...If it hits with a cross....then you get to have fun.
YOu will find like I have..that the birds that are true to your vision will be coming from select pairs....and as Scott Campbell says..."The cream will always rise to the top"...if you follow your vision...you will start circling the wagons around a base....then as I prove in young stock..I start to remove the breeders that have few if any birds that are stock quality. That does not mean that they are bad breeders...it only means that they are no longer apart of my plan....as you streamline you stock....The breeders that are no longer in your program, could be just what another fancier needs in his program. There is always someone in need of good proven breeders...then they can start the same streamline process by selecting best to best.
Well....that is how I feel about crossing...the other reason that I put so much time and energy into my birds is to make my own strain..the second that I cross two established families all the offspring are then my flashover strain.....I did not want to ride anybody elses coat tails...If I do good I want it to be from my hard work and not somebody elses...but the past work is much appreciated by past faciers...because without them....I would not have the birds that I have.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Oldfart
843 posts
Oct 12, 2008
5:20 AM
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Alvaro, I mean that if your skill levels are equal to Paul's then mix them or not as you choose. On the other hand if you skill is equal to mine, I would leave them pure.
Thom
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gotspin7
1902 posts
Oct 12, 2008
5:41 AM
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Guys I would not cross them and the best advice I have ever received in this hobby was stock what you need not what you want! Good luck..
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Sal Ortiz
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Santandercol
3150 posts
Oct 12, 2008
5:43 AM
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Good explaination Paul.Ya gotta have lots of patience for true.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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pisto
125 posts
Oct 14, 2008
11:27 PM
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okay i kind of have an idea of what paul is talking about.the reason i ask this is because im thinking about getting one or two of the ruby birds.Why hasn't tony gave his opinion on this forum?i would like to know what he thinks.(even though he would probably say keep em' pure)
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2867 posts
Oct 15, 2008
5:39 AM
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Hey Pisto, I could write a book on what you are asking! LOL
For the most part, I think you have gotten proper responses to your question. All I would do is be restating what has already been said…
While I see nothing inherently wrong in mixing strains, it not a magic wand either. I favor keeping them “pure” until you have understood what you have and are dealing with (could take years). My philosophy in developing my family and maintaining them is better explained in my publication I wrote titled “How To Breed Better Rollers”.
I breed toward the Ideal Birmingham Roller as I understand it. My basic philosophy can be listed like this:
There are 5 Primary Traits (PT) I breed for and in this order of thinking:
1 Roll
2 Velocity
3 Depth
4 Control
5 Type
There are Secondary Traits (ST) but that’s what they are “secondary” to the PT, which are my main objective. That’s not to say the ST are not important because obviously they are, but we have to focus on the most important ones that make the roller a roller.
Here is KEY #1:
Your goal as a new owner of Ruby Rollers is to NOT LOSE what you have in the established strain. How do you know what you have? Fly them, exercise proper breeding practices and only stock the ones demonstrating the best rendition of the PT.
In the course of time, if you determine there is a trait that you want to improve on, first you find what you are looking for within your family, I bet its there, when you spend the time under enough kits, looking at enough birds on the perch, you should develop a “6th sense” about your stock.
When you do, over time, a new picture emerges in front of you and from that point on; you see them in an entirely new way. It is something you have to experience. But from that point it seems you know the capability of each bird in your stock loft and young birds. (Let me tell you, I ship out some very fine young roller stock I would love to keep, but one of my goals is to “spread the wealth”).
Here is KEY #2:
Bringing in an outcross: Don’t, unless you really cannot improve the trait you are seeking from within the family. It could be years before you witness enough of the genetic traits contained within the original stock to determine the trait you are seeking is not sufficiently represented.
--
As for what Paul has done…just remember, to his credit, he has wisely come back to the well more than once…
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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3757
956 posts
Oct 15, 2008
6:27 AM
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Tony - Your response was on the money! Many do not even understand that it takes years to truly understand and evaluate a strain and it does not happen in 6-8 months. One famous breeder in Southern California was telling me a few years back about some, what he refered to as junk, birds he tried and was trashing them like crazy. I ask how long did you breed them and the response was 6 months. The amazing thing is he is now seeking to get some of that blood back again. Strange.
Your comment on crossing is par excellent and on the money as well. There has to be a need or a reason and you should have a plan of action.
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2008 6:29 AM
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smoke747
1304 posts
Oct 15, 2008
7:25 AM
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a friend of mine here in LA crosses them with some success.Ask yourself, are the Ruby's perfect? If not the right cross could do wonders if the cross was done to improve or add a desirable trait but the wrong cross could cost you dearly. So the question is, why do you want to cross them?
smke747
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Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2008 12:35 PM
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fhtfire
1589 posts
Oct 15, 2008
7:41 AM
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Good post Tony.....
Tony is right it does take years to see what you have..it took me a couple years...and you have to know what you are looking for...some have that skill to see what is needed in there birds and some will learn the skill and some will never find the skill. What I am saying is what Tony said...you have to see what tickles your fancy and what you feel can be improved upon in YOUR birds.....It is never wise to try and "fix" a strain that is a proven strain.
You can also improve whatever traits you are looking for by breeding in a certain direction without using outcrosses. There is a lot of luck involved too
TOny brought up the best point....I have always had to come back and take a drink from the well...and the well is being the pure strain. I have bounced back and bred to the pure side more then one time....That is why I am getting a pure blooded hen from Tony....I am short on Hens...lol
Anyway...excellent post Tony. I also want people to know that some have a real good understanding of breeding and what to look for...and have that "Tough Love" so to speak for selection, culling and not being afraid to remove birds that you are "attached" to. I have been around animals most of my life...or I should say breeding projects....large and small. I have also bred Champion livestock for many years. So...it is not an easy task....and the hardest part is not usually the selection process...because you know what you like and you will move that way...but it is being able to let go of birds that are not working for your...REGARDLESS of what you paid, what color they are, where they came from or sentimental value...if breeders dont work....you need to move them on...if the kit birds dont work...you need to move them on....
Most make the mistake of keeping inferior birds around the stock loft...and still breed from them...I guess the longer you keep them around they may transform themselves into good breeders on there own...or keep them around enough they will come into the roll..no matter how long you keep them...they will NOT turn into what they are not...or I know ....this is a problem bird but it is out of XYZ hen and cock so I have to keep it......DOES NOT MATTER WHO IT IS OUT OF>>> NOT PART OF YOUR PLAN>>>>GOOD BYE..that is why I never look up a band number in my teams until I have already made a decision on pulling it for stock....so I never have my human nature kick in and make me pick a inferior bird just because it is out of a certain pair....
God post Tony....Plus I wanted to make his coat tails a little lighter...lol
rock and ROLL
Paul
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bigwilly
701 posts
Oct 15, 2008
8:09 AM
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Why cross something that does noy need to be fixed. Tony has already done all of that for you. Thats why you need to really study differrent strains and go to flys so you can see what family u like. Alot of guys been working whith one family for years b 4 they introduced new blood in there loft. This is probably why when you buy birds the first question that the seller ask is are you going to cross them.. Sometimes U can throw years of work away, sometimes u can hit the jack pot ....
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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fhtfire
1590 posts
Oct 15, 2008
11:03 AM
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I feel crossing is only a disaster if you dive in head first without checking how deep the water is...meaning...try some trial pairs for a couple years.....and always keep your base around so you can recover.....I myself am not worried at all...if I mess up....I can go back to my base in two seconds flat or back to the last fork in the road and go the other way.
Keith said it...NO STRAIN IS PERFECT.....so there is always room for improvement....but I feel improvement is the wrong word....how about tweaking.....it is all about to the individuals liking..
I wanted the traits of the Ruby Rollers with the Power of the Mort Bird.....so the Rubys gave me the speed and the activity...the Mort birds give me the depth and the power (endurance)...they both have heary....but the Morts tend to kit tighter.....that may come from the power....they can hold it together longer.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1591 posts
Oct 15, 2008
11:09 AM
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OH...and I have already explained how pigeon guys do not use the term Hybrid Vigor right....crossing two families IS NOT HYBRID VIGOR....there are a lot of myths out there and that is one of them....the other myth is that if you cross two families..... the F1's will not produce...THAT IS BS too. There is nothing wrong with crossing if you do it right....and I also feel there is benefits to Line and crossing..but line or inbreeding can take you to no where faster.....the fact is...you need more talent to line breed then crossing.....line breeding can take you to a dead end street real quick...crossing is not as bad as everyone thinks as long as you do it right.....crossing is like drinking.....you cross nice and slow and take your time...you will be fine.....if you cross to much and just jump in with no records...it is like hitting the whole bottom..you will be sick and have a huge ass headache...
Trust me...I have done both with livestock...and MOST cross in other families...very few inbreed anymore...unless it is very distant....
Even Pensom saw the benefits of both....if we was not up for crossing.....then there would not be the stories of him seeing a bird in a kit and he had to have it...and he would put it on his best stock......all he was doing was well...bringing that trait into his gene pool...Trust me...keep it to tight and you WILL hit a dead end...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2008 11:12 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
1038 posts
Oct 15, 2008
7:04 PM
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Great post Tony C. I learn a lot from your messages to the board.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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pisto
128 posts
Oct 16, 2008
8:09 PM
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thanks i really learned somethiing today
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smoke747
1339 posts
Oct 16, 2008
11:28 PM
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If all the info is true and correct, it makes a whole lot of sense.
good response Tony.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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