ezeedad
799 posts
Oct 15, 2008
3:15 PM
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I was at the Bob Scott Memorial show this past weekend, and there was a seperate category for muff rollers. Like all shows I have attended lately, the birds in this category included every length of feathers on their feet, from grouse legged to fairly large muffs.
After the show I asked the judge, Rayvon Hall, who is excellent at evaluating rollers, how much did he consider the muffs in his evaluation, and he said that he didn't because there is no standard for muffed rollers.
Personally, I would like to see only real muffs in the category... not grouse legged birds. The muffs should at least completely cover the feet so that the toes cannot be seen...
Paul G
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smoke747
1324 posts
Oct 15, 2008
3:19 PM
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I agree Paul. We will have a standard at our next show. I never even thought about that.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Scott
1194 posts
Oct 15, 2008
5:08 PM
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Why would they even be judged seperatly to begin with ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Missouri-Flyer
1630 posts
Oct 15, 2008
8:13 PM
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Im with Scott,
Why would them being muffed,groused,clean legged have anything to do with the overall "body makeup" of the roller?
As far as I know, the feathering on the legs have never been a consideration when looking at a roller. Preference maybe, but not a determining factor when judging.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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cv rollers
81 posts
Oct 15, 2008
8:32 PM
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ezeedad,boy that is so true ,i myself had this same question with several follow muff roller guys.there should be a standard for both roller and muff roller not just what the judge likes personally ...that is how u judge a show pigeon with points given for eyes,shape,grooming,and so on ..i to was at the show .......
rick
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3757
959 posts
Oct 15, 2008
8:47 PM
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Paul - I personally understand your dilemma especially since people have chosen to have muff classes in a show. I understand you are stating since they have a muff class there needs to be a standard.
Scott and Jerry you are 100 percent correct in that it should not even be an issue. I truly believe that the muff classes originally started as a political thing because some were prejudice against muffs so they started another class. Also, because some judges would never pick a muff bird because of their unawareness of the breed in that the original Birmingham rollers were muffed according to many of the early historians of that era. Pensom and Smith had tons of muffed birds and the muff gene still runs heavy in the descendents of those lines. The muffs on the birds feet have nothing to do with conformation of a roller at all and Birmingham rollers come in clean legged and muffed.
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smoke747
1327 posts
Oct 15, 2008
10:19 PM
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Good post 3757. Thanks for clearing that up so people would understand why they have a class of their own.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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gabe454
1284 posts
Oct 15, 2008
10:27 PM
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I agree with you paul
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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kopetsa
1819 posts
Oct 15, 2008
10:28 PM
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is there a standard for rollers or?
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Andrew
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ICEMAN710
560 posts
Oct 15, 2008
11:02 PM
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the question is who is the one or group to be able to decide what the standard shall be? The standard should have been made when the breed was being developed, not now. We can only take personal ideas and standards at this point. I feel as there was no politics in regards to the muffs or clean legged classes. just it gives the opportunity for another class. remember, these shows are for fun and thats it. this is not the NPA sanctioned shows where placements count towards anything. Its for fun, it gives more opportunites for people to compete and win something. Is there any rule saying a muff bird cant compete in the yb or old bird class? I dont think so.
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Gary
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BA Rollers
83 posts
Oct 15, 2008
11:23 PM
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There should be no separate "class" for muffed rollers because there is NO structural show standard for performing rollers. The roller such as the Birmingham Roller is a Performance Breed, not a show or structural breed. When the day comes that a physical standard is created that determines the desired phenotypical ideal, you have given rebirth to the show roller once again.
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gotspin7
1934 posts
Oct 16, 2008
3:36 AM
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Ice and BA said it best!
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Sal Ortiz
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gotspin7
1935 posts
Oct 16, 2008
3:37 AM
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Oh and 3757 on the second part of his post!..lol
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Sal Ortiz
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George R.
1075 posts
Oct 16, 2008
7:35 AM
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good posts guys !
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silver tail
523 posts
Oct 16, 2008
7:45 AM
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Very good post but I think this class was for those who felt the muff never won in regular classes I have also seen bull eye classes given.
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ezeedad
801 posts
Oct 16, 2008
10:29 AM
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Right Scott and LaRon,
Muffs are still Birmingham Rollers, and as such should compete on a level playing field with the clean legged birds. But it is also true that judges were not picking the muffed birds at the shows, and it was partly because of pressure of other breeders and because they were afraid of the chance that they would be choosing one that had been crossed with West of England. I put a big muffed into a show once, and I could see that the judge was falling in love with her... but he wouldn't place her.
So I think it's good to have them in a seperate class. In fact, I just read that there has been a standard for feather foot rollers ever since 1960.
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3757
960 posts
Oct 16, 2008
12:21 PM
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Paul - Thanks.
Ithink one of the big problems is that guys have taking a show standard and sticking it to a performing bird class. There is a guy in Southern California who shows birds, wins and knows that these birds do not even perform. Now, to me that is no difference than the show rollers. I have not shown a bird since 1976 at the Southwest pigeon fanciers show. Bill Yurga showed me back then that most guys will not put there best performers in the show but a bird that looks good since the great performers are not always the good lookers. Humm, does that still happen today? I think shows are great for interaction among fliers but when you start standardizing a performing breed it can get ugly. I do understand your point Paul since guys are using a standard then why not have one for the muff birds so that they will not be discriminated against since they are Birmingham rollers.
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2008 12:26 PM
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redchecker16
165 posts
Oct 16, 2008
3:32 PM
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Ezeedad/Smoke747/3757 well i was right there up front an Ray said he judge them no different even though they have feathers on them(muffs) they are judged the same, so are they supposed 2 be judged different? is there a different standard for judgeing Muffs?? Redchecker16 aka Lamont
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redchecker16
166 posts
Oct 16, 2008
3:37 PM
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OK i see what ur saying Paul/ smoke747 so is it the size of the muffs that will make it a standard?? redchecker16 aka Lamont
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redchecker16
168 posts
Oct 16, 2008
3:53 PM
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Paul that was a nice Muff nice expression an body I'm a young rookie in training an i notice it quick! nice pigeon Redchecker16
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black_hawk_down
156 posts
Oct 16, 2008
5:11 PM
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i agree that they should be jugded the same as non muffs paul can you please show us your muff so we can fall inlove too?! i really want to see it.-joe v.
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smoke747
1331 posts
Oct 16, 2008
5:56 PM
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Fellas you are making this way more serious than what it actually is. Most judges including me would not pick muffed roller over a clean leg roller because of the mixing and crossing with WOEs. I've seen some really good muffs that were bred to be performers that just happen to come out muffed. Then I've seen people breed purposely to get muffs no matter how they perfom or look, just as long as they came muffed. There are 3 people I know 2day that fly some excellent rolling muffs but do not breed for them. This is just an attempt to give all birds a fair shake in the show pen, nothing more, nothing less. As for myself, I AM A DIE HARD FLY HARD.
MOST SHOWS ARE TO MAKE MONEY AND HANG OUT WITH FELLOW FANCIERS.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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kopetsa
1827 posts
Oct 16, 2008
6:02 PM
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I think I am going to have to agree with Keith's statement "Most judges including me would not pick muffed roller over a clean leg roller"
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Andrew C.
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2008 6:03 PM
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3757
961 posts
Oct 16, 2008
7:11 PM
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Kieth, I guess I am going to disagree on this one. No offense, but if that is the rational then we better add color as well because of all of the mixing done there also. To me, we are still not addressing the true issue and that is that Birmingham rollers come in muff, grouse and clean leg. How can we discriminate as to which ones are crossed using that rationale? It is impossible. The muff Birminghams have always existed no matter how we try and spin it or rationalize and this is the issue that most guys cannot and will not grasp. I have seen white bars at shows and no one raises an eyebrow. There have definitely been a lot of opals, white bars and weird birds that are strange to me in photos and shows. Thurmond Davis has an awesome family of Smith birds that are almost totally muff and sure is heaven not crossed, Charlie Saldana, Richard Rangle, some of the Plona stock, Pensom stock and on and on have grouse of muff birds.
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ezeedad
805 posts
Oct 16, 2008
7:19 PM
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Really in my opinion the only thing that needs to be described is what constitutes a muff. Other than that, the birds should be judged identically as are the clean legs and grouse legs. The description I got was that their muffs should completely cover the toes and should be no longer than 3 inches in length.
They are Birmingham Rollers which is a performing breed and should be bred toward the flying standard of the breed, which is blur speed, wings straight up parallel and to show the hole.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2008 7:22 PM
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gotspin7
1952 posts
Oct 17, 2008
3:44 AM
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In my opinion shows are just to hang out and talk pigeon stories! Laron, I agree with you on this one!
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Sal Ortiz
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BA Rollers
85 posts
Oct 17, 2008
12:44 PM
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Sal, IMO the only thing good about a rollers show is the hanging out with friends, meeting new people, etc. All these clubs figured out they can make a bunch of money for the club if they have show. Some now have two or three shows a year so they can fatten up that calf so to speak. Unless the clubs have filed for non-profit status, they better watch their financial behinds.
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ezeedad
807 posts
Oct 17, 2008
12:51 PM
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Joe Blackhawk,
Okay, here's the bird... You know it's not that easy posting pictures on this site....
Paul G
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PR_rollers
1740 posts
Oct 17, 2008
4:34 PM
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I see what you mean Paul..
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Ralph
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Alohazona
462 posts
Oct 17, 2008
5:32 PM
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BA,
Truthfully more clubs should have the shows,yes,the money is important,but getting together and spending time is enjoyable.On our end here in Hawaii the club foots the bill for any island hopping that needs to be done for the judges.We also put them up in a B&B usually.
Spending a half hour at someones house,before speeding off to someone elses set-up isn't necessarily a GAS.Squeezing in a lunch were you can,WHOOPEE!
It's not all about who scored these points or those points.There should be a venue for relaxtion and commradery,we work hard enough during the week,lets leave the rat race were it belongs,
[during the week],and enjoy ourselves...Aloha,Todd
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smoke747
1352 posts
Oct 19, 2008
1:19 AM
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Laron, you are actually right about the color thing. They have been seperate classes for color birds aswell as white birds. I have even seen a class for bull eyes. I think it'll get ugly if people start breeding for the different classes instead of the roll. They should be judged together(clean leg and muffed)
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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3757
969 posts
Oct 19, 2008
5:55 AM
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Keith - Absolutely. Also, I know you know individuals also who will show a bird that they know the bird cannot even turn over and shows the bird because it looks good. Now, that is a crime. I hope all is well.
Paul - Nice bird.
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2008 5:57 AM
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gotspin7
1957 posts
Oct 19, 2008
6:10 AM
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Laron, it is a crime! Wow! Not good, question do these guys even fly their pigeons?
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
971 posts
Oct 19, 2008
6:13 AM
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Gotspin - Yes they do that is the killer part of it. Why would anyone show a piece of garbage because it looks good. Maybe I am part of the moral majority but it makes no sense to me.
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gotspin7
1959 posts
Oct 19, 2008
6:21 AM
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Laron, to me the shows when I lived in California were to just hang out tell pigeon stories and meet new friends, I never have placed a bird in a show until last year I did it for my kids (their selected birds out of my #1 kit) and only one placed second. My question why do people deviate from flying them and stocking them on their abilities and not for the pretty colors or how big their muffs are? But I guess to each his own. I agree Laron!
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Sal Ortiz
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ezeedad
810 posts
Oct 19, 2008
6:37 PM
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Sal,
Who are "these guys"..?? Are you saying that because a person likes muffs, or breeds for them it means that they don't fly their birds? Are you also saying that because a person goes to shows that they don't fly their birds??
Paul G
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BA Rollers
88 posts
Oct 19, 2008
7:35 PM
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I don't think that is what they are saying Paul. They mean, bringing birds to a show because it is built right and looks good versus actually being a good roller.
On the other hand I once showed an exceptional looking roller at a big show that wouldn't do more than some flips or short five-footers at best. He was placed as the champion of the show by the judge who is very respected in the hobby. That was only the second time I ever decided to show a roller. I learned what birds to show from the first time which was several years prior where a very nice looking young cock was pulled from the kit box and showed. He was pretty much a stiff that didn't do much at all. He placed second in a class of about 40 young cocks.
I have a bird I put aside this year that is a great looking roller. He was born great looking and I almost didn't fly him out because he was so fantastic looking. I flew him out anyways and the bird has absolutely zero brakes. He is the classic example of a stone cold RD. Doesn't matter how high he is at the first time he rolls. And the roll is rubbish. But he is a great looking bird and I will show him somewhere down the road just to prove a point.
The problem with roller shows that are judged with no standard is eventually a pattern will develop on what kind of birds it takes to win or place high in a class. For newcomers and the like who pay attention, they soon realize what kind of bird they must bring to the show in order to be competitive. And that usually won't be their best bird because they tried that before and their bird didn't place well at all. With no performance based coop judging standard employed the end result leans towards the trend of showing the "best looking bird". A similar problem nearly changed the hobby many decades ago.
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George R.
1087 posts
Oct 19, 2008
8:13 PM
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I always understood that in a Lawn show that the Best looking bird (not Spinner) should win. Clean, all feathers in place, like a bueaty contest ETC.
that means the best looking Bird should win. The spin or roll cannot be evaluated in a show pen. just like a good looking Bird (looks only ) cant be evaluated in the air. Only spin, quality, frequency, can be evaluated in the air.
whats the difference between a guy that breeds birds for show or a guy that breeds but dont the fly birds in any kind of Competition ??
every time I go to a show there are a lot of people but when I go on flys there only a few people that are there to watch the Birds perform.
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ICEMAN710
572 posts
Oct 19, 2008
11:51 PM
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maybe its a bias because thats what I follow, but what about the universal spinner standard?
The standard in which Cornell Norwood Followed as far as body type and confirmation..the ideal birmingham roller. Their may be rolldowns and non rollers, but if and when it were to spin it would spin true and correct. At that show, it looked to me that those birds that placed 1st were those that followed that standard. But then again, I didnt handle all the class winners.
George I feel as though, the roller shows are really only good for one thing, like sal stated for us to hang out, talk, have a good time, and support the club hosting the event. Not everyone is interested in competition, therefore not interested in competition flys. These shows bring together both fliers; the competition guys, and the backyard guys. Did you ever notice how many people actually look at the birds being shown? very little.
I still believe the root of the problem was not that there is no standard on muffs (although that may be a problem now), just that when the "muff" class was developed, it was just to broad and undefined. We should be asking what the club or person who oringinally started the muff class what muff meant? We all can interpret it however we want. maybe the muff class should have been muff class including grouse legs. all in all i think it was just a general term used to include all birds without clean legs. who knows...?
just my 2 cents
Hey paul thats a HOT looking bird you posted up, i see you at all the shows and always mean to introduce myself. I always see you occupied and never find the right time! Ill be sure to do it at the next!
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Gary
Last Edited by on Oct 19, 2008 11:52 PM
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gotspin7
1963 posts
Oct 20, 2008
4:29 AM
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Paul, All I am saying is what I stated earlier. If you choose to go in further detail you can e-mail me at gotspin7@yahoo.com.
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Sal Ortiz
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ezeedad
811 posts
Oct 20, 2008
11:36 AM
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BA Rollers,
That was a very good post. I think that what George says pretty well sums it up. That a lawn show is like a beauty contest.
But a good judge can and does choose those birds that best represent the ideal type as seen on the ground. They can also evaluate the temperment and expression. I believe that all these characteristics go into a good roller.
Pensom had the ability to pick the best rollers out of a flock on the ground. Cornell Norwood introduced me to the practice of stocking the occasional bird from the ground. I resisted for a long time, but when I finally tried it I had good success.
So we should learn to judge our birds on the ground as well as in the air. The fact that a bird is seldom, for example, doesn't mean that it won't produce well. Nor are all good spinners good producers. There is a lot of trial and error.
I personally don't many of my bring my best rollers to shows because I'm afraid that something might happen to them. But, the birds I bring are what I think represents the type, etc of a good roller.
Paul
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ezeedad
812 posts
Oct 20, 2008
11:48 AM
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Sal,
It sounded kind of like a blanket statement.. that's all. I agree that these things do take place...
We never want to let things get to the point where it was when the show rollers creeped into the breed. Things can get ugly...
This is what the show rollers look like now..!!
Paul
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Scott
1198 posts
Oct 20, 2008
3:24 PM
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(Hey paul thats a HOT looking bird you posted up)
That was my thought, Paul would you breed that bird without flying it ?
Brian, good one and so true LOL , my stiffs are what are in show condition, not the hot shots.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1200 posts
Oct 20, 2008
3:32 PM
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(This is what the show rollers look like now..!!
Paul )
Yep, that is where showing went, now are we starting over again ?
Flying and showing do NOT go hand in hand .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
813 posts
Oct 20, 2008
5:16 PM
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Right Scott,
We don't want to go down that path again... We don'w want ANHTHING to take our eye off the goal of breeding towards the standard... BLUR SPEED, WINGS STRAIGHT UP, and SHOWING A HOLE...
Paul G
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SpinCityRollers
221 posts
Oct 20, 2008
5:26 PM
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paul call me 7026896180
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PR_rollers
1783 posts
Oct 20, 2008
11:21 PM
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I agree with Scott flying and showing do not go hand and hand..
Paul said Nor are all good spinners good producers..
so true are those words if it was that easy all we have to do is grab 2 great spinner mate them up and poof we got good spinners.too bad it just doesn't work that way.thats why the breeding loft is the Science Lab... ----------
Ralph
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gotspin7
1978 posts
Oct 21, 2008
4:37 AM
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Ralph, I agree!
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Sal Ortiz
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smoke747
1360 posts
Oct 21, 2008
3:56 PM
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It all depends on the judge. I would never pick a bird like those. In old birds I try to pick birds that resemble my best breeders and in young birds I try to pick the ones that look similar to some of the best spinners I've seen or bred.
I don't think it'll ever get that bad again or at least I pray that it wont.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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