Anonymous
Guest
Dec 25, 2003
1:29 AM
|
My best spinners have always been checks and most generally red. I know this is an old story and argument, but it is talked about so often I believe one or the other holds validity. I am beliving that displaying check is is most critical with color meaning nothing.
I have heard many say that yellow birds never roll well, but I have seen a breeder with yellow bars (several in his kit) that roll like champions. This was in central Illinois. He laughs when I tell him they ain't supposed to roll. He says the best spinners he ever had were yellows and actually breeds for them.
|
rollerpigeon
3 posts
Dec 25, 2003
11:52 AM
|
I think what people are really saying is that within their own family specific traits are dominant or not (in this case the roll as it relates to the yellow color).
I think it creates a problem of logic if someone says, “Because my yellow birds never roll well, therefore all yellow birds never roll well”. This line of thinking creates a fallacy.
I think your question has in it, the answer you seek. You say “the best spinners he ever had were yellows and actually breeds for them”.
In your family, you say the check patterns and reds tend to do better than the other colors in your loft. However, this does not mean that in other lofts all checks and reds are the best rollers.
Like traits tends to reproduce themselves. So if you breed the best rolling yellow to the best of its offspring, and continue to do so over time, you will tend to see the roll improve in all your yellows. The same applies to your checks and reds.
We should only apply specifics within our own family and not generalize our experience and apply it to all others.
FALLACY: “Because my yellow birds never roll well, therefore all yellow birds never roll well”.
TRUTH: “What might be true for me may not be true for you. Just because my yellows don’t roll well does not mean your yellows do not roll well”.
Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Dec 25, 2003 11:54 AM
|
Jon
Guest
Dec 28, 2003
10:19 PM
|
At one time some of the best rollers in the country were bred in my hometown, and alot of them were yellows or dilutes. This breeder has been out of the hobby for close to 20 years, but people from all over the country still ask about him when they see my hometown on my website.
Some dilutes dont have the hard feathering that is desirable in a good roller, and I've seen alot of dilutes that were rolldowns. Perhaps they were bred more for color than performance. Both of these conditions can be avoided with a good breeding program.
Most of my best birds are torts, simply because my best breeders carry grizzle. If I didnt watch it all would be torts. They are not better because of tort, simply because thier parents happend to be.
|
Guest
Guest
Jan 22, 2004
10:32 PM
|
In my family, I have noticed that the check patterns and mealy bars are especially stable rollers. The mealys tend to be deeper than the checks though.
My lavendars either have really good control of the roll or they cull themselves if you know what I mean. Lots of velocity and should they hit something, its curtains!
I think if a person wants to breed pretty colors he is entitled. If those colors are soft, the challenge is to make them stable...
|
STARFIRE
8 posts
Feb 01, 2004
1:01 PM
|
It's the same old fairytale.Hard colored birds are the best and most stable spinners.Bullcrap.Color means nothing,as applied to good spinning birds.The reason these guys say the hard colors are the best is because thats all they have.The best bird I have now is a white hen with yellow bars.This bird spins 30-40 ft and never stops.She can and does fly as long as the kit will.That's anywhere from 1 -2 hrs.As soon as she returns to the kit after a break, she immediatly goes into another spin.I have yellow bars-almonds-grizzles -torts-whites-dillutes- that will spin as good as any hard colored bird you have,and 30-40 ft.I have the hard colors too but the light ones are every bit as good.I don't want a coop full of hard colored red and blue checks and blue bars .Don't be taken in by all you read.
you can have a loft full of excellent colored birds if you want.I have about 200 birds .Of them I have only about 25 hard colored birds,mostly red checks.2 blue bars and about 5 blue checks.
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Feb 01, 2004 1:05 PM
|
tim_barnwell_1966
11 posts
Feb 01, 2004
8:08 PM
|
im glad this subject came up i also like the odd colord birds like almond and yellow lavender and thats some of what im flying i just started in this hobbie this will be my first year breeding rollers evry one on line has tryed to tell me that the yellow and almond was trash as flyers and myself i think thats bull my uncle ben flying theas birds for years he keeps no trash and im one of theas that has to see for my self lol so my yellows and almonds will be in my kit till i see for myself how thay do time will tell but i think thay will be fine glad to see some one thats not putting theas birds down!!!!!
----------
BLUE CORNER BANTAMS
& Pigeons
BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS:
yellow : almond : kites
baldheads : rec red
brown : black : blue bar
allso breeding : CONTINENTAL ROLLERS
|
Freddie
9 posts
Feb 04, 2004
4:11 PM
|
It's all in what you choose to breed. In one of the families I have the Recesive Reds are the deepest birds. That was the way they were chosen in the past. If you put two hard colored birds together you breed a bunch of shorts and stiffs. You put two Recesive Reds together you get birds that cull themselves in short order. Just my take on my family.
|
tim_barnwell_1966
18 posts
Feb 04, 2004
11:19 PM
|
freddie thanks for the info on rec red x rec red = a roll down i dident know that and i do have rec red so if thats the case if you had some that wasent rolling deep enoufh add rec red might improve the rolle!!!
----------
BLUE CORNER BANTAMS
& Pigeons
BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS:
yellow : almond : kites
baldheads : rec red
brown : black : blue bar
allso breeding : CONTINENTAL ROLLERS
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 05, 2004
8:04 PM
|
You guys and your pretty colors are lost pups,in order to move your loft and the breed forward you to need to be realistic,and the only way get get realistic is to get out of your own backyards,those that do fly a good team that may have some color in thier birds are those that never pay attention to the color and it just happens to be in thier birds and just happens to pop up,and those kind of guys are few and far,as far as for yellows,they are without a doubt a beautiful bird but they are weak and thats a known fact of coarse as with anything there are exceptions as I've heard rumer of a good yellow here and there,the biggest problem with them is landing early,out flying and instability,if you enjoy them and you arent that serious about the birds then by all means go for it,but if you are new and you are want to be serious with the real deal steer clear of those with lots of pretty birds,the fact is truely good birds you scratch for even in the best lofts,they just don't come in bunches,anytime someone is compensating thier loft for a color there is a setback,and the sad fact is most don't have the blood that it would take to make those pretty goods better anyway,there are a few and they also have some topshelf birds to make the pretty ones work.if you guys want to blow smoke up each others a$$ go right ahead,but I'm stepping in here because there may be some new guys in here that might believe it.
Last Edited by Guest on Feb 05, 2004 9:00 PM
|
Flying Roller
5 posts
Feb 06, 2004
2:01 PM
|
It's interesting that you say that, because out of last year's chicks (39 in all) of the yellows, reds, silver recessives, black BH & Blue chks, my best fliers have been my blue bar chicks. I was somewhat disappointed cuz I like the dilutes, but hey, I'm mstill new, and at least I got a few good performers for my first year. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
|
tim_barnwell_1966
20 posts
Feb 06, 2004
4:15 PM
|
IF YOU have not tryed breeding the colors how can you say we r lost pups thear are pepple flying kits of theas birds in compatishan and not doing to bad i dont put down the pepple that fly compatishan and i dont think the fact that some of use do it in ouer back yards makes us ignerant exspesaly sins we are already breeding good performing almonds and yellow iv got reds brown blue bar and the almonds and yellows perform right with theam
----------
BLUE CORNER BANTAMS
& Pigeons
BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS:
yellow : almond : kites
baldheads : rec red
brown : black : blue bar
allso breeding : CONTINENTAL ROLLERS
|
Anonymous
Guest
Feb 06, 2004
5:23 PM
|
LOL Tim, hey buddy just enjoy them.
Mother Lofts
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 06, 2004
5:26 PM
|
you had me all tounge twisted LOL
that was:
Mother lode lofts
|
tim_barnwell_1966
22 posts
Feb 06, 2004
7:40 PM
|
lol the main thing is we all have fun and bickerring over ouer openuns just adds to it lol
----------
BLUE CORNER BANTAMS
& Pigeons
BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS:
yellow : almond : kites
baldheads : rec red
brown : black : blue bar
allso breeding : CONTINENTAL ROLLERS
|
STARFIRE
9 posts
Feb 07, 2004
2:24 PM
|
Hey guys I hold the record for a mixed kit in Ontario Canada
Thats 9 young birds and one old one.This was back in 1975
This kit scored 350 points.It's never been beaten here.There wasn't one blue check or blue bar or red check in it.They were all yellow bars red bars nun marked birds and 3 of my Starfire Crested birds.The crested ones were the mother,a lavender self and her 2 daughters,one a yellow bar and the other a red bar.So much for your hard colored birds.Like I said the people have hard colors and they don't know the soft colors are just as good,because they dont have any.And they don't know anyone that has.Hard color means that the line of good spinners happens to be hard colored.THE HARD COLOR DID'NT MAKE THEM GOOD SPINNERS.The guys that bred them probably only had good hard colored birds to breed from.They bred best to best like you are supposed to ,it just happened that best was hard colored in their family.In my last entry in the world cup I was awarded Q-1.5=D-1.6.You got any hard colord birds that will rate any better?That was in 96-before they started loosening up the Q-D markers.
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Feb 07, 2004 4:18 PM
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 07, 2004
4:12 PM
|
Some fly in Ontario Canada in 1975 means absoulutly nothing,same with scores,they mean nothing,what does count is the qaulity of fliers that you fly against,thats where the measure is,as far as I know the only fliers worth mention is and was out of British Columbia,right now the only man in Canada worth mention is John Weins out of Vancuver B.C.,yellow bar crests LOL LOL LOL oh yea I bet they are hot,for anyone new STAY AWAY from these kind of jokers as far as the birds go,Starfire there are some guys flying the softer colors that do pretty good and maybe a kit here and there that might have a ok yellow or two in it and thats about it,if you think that there are kits of these with a number of yellows or mongral colors you either don't know what a good one is or your just lost,personally I think it's both.
Motherlode lofts
|
STARFIRE
10 posts
Feb 07, 2004
4:51 PM
|
Hey guys I see some guys dont believe that scores mean anything.If thats the case I don't see why anyone is flying in competition.Why are you trying to breed better birds? To get a lower score? How can you judge a kit if you don't score them?Talk is cheap Scores tell the tale.Are you going to buy birds from anybody if they dont do well in competition?How well do you do in competition?Post a world fly scoresheet and put your score for every one to see.I guarantee you dont have the Q-D to be criticizing others when you haven't seen what you are laughing at.Come see my birds and I guaranty you wont be laughing when you leave.I'm not afraid to put up my birds for the sceptics.If you seen the Q-D of these crested birds I dont' think you would laugh anymore.I guess winners in the world Fly don't mean anything.Scores don't matter LMAO By the way George Babarris came 5th in the world fly 2 years ago were you been to say Canada has no good flyers.What position did you take?What have you won lately?
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Feb 07, 2004 4:59 PM
|
nicksiders
10 posts
Feb 07, 2004
7:57 PM
|
Do you call the crested birds Birmingham Rollers?
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 07, 2004
8:17 PM
|
Hmmm discussion and debate is good,one thing that I don't do is brag on myself or my birds,but if I see what I think is B.S. I'll call you on it,the only time I've seen more than 12 tail feathers are in birds with mongral blood in them,then you throw the crests in and to tell you the truth I just don't know what to say without taking this debate somewhere where I don't want it to go,what other colors of birds do you have or had on the property ??? be truthfull LOL you have the so called rare colors there also I would assume,enough of that though,as for scores,like I said they mean absoulutly nothing as they vary so greatly from judge to judge,you mentioned the W/C it's the standings that matter not the score,a good tight judges 300 points is anothers 1,000 points,like I said scores mean nothing, as for George Barbaris and his fith place in 02 (the other Canadian) LOL I stand corrected,but you need to go back and reread my post as far as there not being"any" good fliers in Canada,it would be idiotic of me to make such a silly claim since Canada is home to John Wiens and a few that are no longer with us,by the way I know the John and I have had the pleasure sleeping on his couch and of judging his kit one year,he also stayed here at my home a few days while judging the W/C last year,John Wiens is no doubt(as he has proved) a world class flier,I've either seen or judged birds on the West Coast,N. West Coast including British Columbia(thats in Canada LOL),Rocky Mountain region,Kentucky and a state or two around it and the East coast from New York to Maine,and oh yea Hawaii also,I've been around a little and I've seen a whole lot of birds and and have judged pushing a 100 kits outside of my own area,not as much as some that I know but more than most,now you want to know about my Fly record in Competition,I've done ok and I'll just leave it at that,as for my birds they are considered old Pensom line,with many years of heavy inbreeding behind them and never once has there been a delute,a crest or more than 12 tail feathers come out of these birds,I see from some of your last posts that you inbreed heavy,inbreeding does several things,it brings up the bad along with the good,and it will also show you what dirty little secrets your gene pool may be carrying ie crests, and more than 12 tail feathers.the "true" Birmingham Roller is a beautiful bird that stands on it's own and is a performance breed,pretty colors,crests,or polluting the breed with mongrals colors is nothing more than a setback and is a novelty at best,for those that are new,do your homework and find out in's and out's of whats going on with the breed today,there's far more garbage out there than there is good, and there is a whole lot of B.S. if someone has to tell you how good thier birds are walk away,look up the top competitors and call them with any questions most will help you out anyway they can,Mr StarFire I'll be looking for you in the major flys,like you said talk is cheap and W/C is right around the corner
Motherlode Lofts
P.S. I've yet to have a judge from a major fly make any mention of some flier with crested delutes that have up to 14 tail feathers LOL,trust me it would have been brought up.my money says you like selling these noveltys to the uninformed also,could be wrong.
|
Show Roller
Guest
Feb 07, 2004
9:01 PM
|
I jumped over from the Show Roller Discussion and read some
of the roller talk about color. I can not speak for color in the air,but as far as for show, certain colors have dominated the show ring for years. From what I have seen and heard it is the same for fly birds. I know for years that the Blue Ck. family and tort( grizzle) family has kicked butt. This past five years however we have seen other colors come to life. The big reason for this is that
some of the top breeders have been willing to use some of their top birds on these color projects to try to improve them.This is not something that can be done in one year. I
do know also that there are some Birmingham breeders trying to do the same thing. A lot of these guys are getting raked over the coals for doing this.I say to these guys "you go for it". If we did not have these type of guys
years ago to experiment with colors and to try to produce
new breeds we would all be breeding Blue bar and Blue Ck.
barn pigeons.Food for thought!!!!!!! RON
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 07, 2004
9:39 PM
|
Yea Ron that kind of thinking is how the Show Roller was developed and killed the Birmingham in many area's as a performance breed,thanks but no thanks.
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 07, 2004
9:42 PM
|
Oh yea Ron just curious,how many tail feathers do show Rollers have these days ? LOL,I really do want to know
|
Mongrel lofts
Guest
Feb 07, 2004
10:43 PM
|
Ron,
What you are calling adding colors, is nothng more than the crossing of the Birmingham roller onto other breeds of pigeons,,ie, pheasant pigeons, swallows, oriental frills and other non sporting breeds for color.. I personaly can't see why we would thank anyone for mongrelizing the birmingham roller like this. its fine to mongrelize a breed that has no sporting value but to set in a show coop, shit and eat. Look what mongrelizing has done to the roller, to turn it into what you now call a show roller. These birds started out as a performance roller. Then they were Mongrelized, crossed up on holley croppers and modenas.
I don't want cross breeders helping out the birmingham roller, like they did the show roller! Color breeding, is just another word for cross breeding and mongrelizing..
|
nicksiders
14 posts
Feb 08, 2004
12:26 AM
|
The show roller don't even look like the Birmingham Roller any more. I hope they do not use the "Birmingham" name anymore. It would be confussing to the visitor of the breed.
Crested rollers are not Birminghams and probably a lot of the droop wings you see are being influenced by other breeds. Again, I believe some breeders are spiking the tea. I know one breader who put a Ice Pigeon in the mix trying to influence a color in his show birds. I am sorry, but the off spring become something other than a roller when that happens especially something other than a birmingham roller.
Gotta quit spiking the tea.
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 08, 2004
8:10 AM
|
Good post Nick , when you say "spiking the tea" I take it that is a nice way of saying mongralizing and polluting the breed LOL,your right there is way to much of it going on,it's funny that mutants never seem to appear out of the main stream lofts LOL,the biggest problem with the mongrals is that this stuff is being spead to so many unsuspecting new guys,another thing that I've noticed is those that boast how great thier birds are have some of the funkiest lofts as far as the birds in them.
Mother lode lofts
|
Show Rollers
Guest
Feb 08, 2004
6:32 PM
|
Show Rollers have 12 tail feathers. They are not Birmingham
rollers.They are not bred for flying.They probably were
crossed at one time the same as every other breed was.They
have not hurt the flying breeds at all.They have not hurt the name of the flying breeds.A lot of the fly guys have
both breeds.A lot of the fly guys had Show Rollers at
one time.No one is asking you to like the new breed. Hell,
there are hundreds of different kinds of pigeons that I don't like , but I do not put them down.With fewer and fewer people raising pigeons these days,I do not understand
why some of you guys want to get down in the dirt and roll
around. I would think we should all be trying to come up with ways we can preserve what little bit of the hobby we have left. A wise man by the name of Steven Covey once said
"seek first to understand,before being understood".
|
tim_barnwell_1966
26 posts
Feb 09, 2004
10:30 AM
|
I AGREE SHOW ROLLER im not breeding my birds to please anyone but my self theas put downs are getting old the openuns are ok but the put downs are going to ruin this site pepple are soon going to go elswear if this continuse
----------
BLUE CORNER BANTAMS
& Pigeons
BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS:
yellow : almond : kites
baldheads : rec red
brown : black : blue bar
allso breeding : CONTINENTAL ROLLERS
|
STARFIRE
16 posts
Feb 09, 2004
5:27 PM
|
hey mother load .I want to know more about your flying record and what your name is so i can look in the NBRC books and look up how you did in some of the flys.I don't want you to brag but i would like to see what your birds are doing.Dont be shy.Show us.If you know Don Luna call him and ask him about my birds .Iv'e beaten him in competion.And all the other guys in the TFRC at one time or another.
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Feb 09, 2004 5:35 PM
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 09, 2004
7:18 PM
|
Starfire I thought that this was a dead topic, you need to quit,ask Mongral lofts maybe he'll tell you his record,I don't know Don Luna I just looked that up for you,You flying this year ???
|
Motherlode lofts
Guest
Feb 09, 2004
8:43 PM
|
On second thought I'll bite Starfire since you've asked,as far as the local and regional flys for W/C and NBRC they are not even worth mention, as for the placings of the finals fly for the NBRC Nationals I have taken a 4th,and an 8th,for the W/C I took 12th this year with only two other fliers from the US and Canada ahead of me,and a few where I was just in the middle of the pack,also took a 1st in the Calif. State fly ,the fliers for the state fly were determined by who qaulified for both the W/C and the NBRC nationals the year before,done allright as I said Starfire,nothing special,no exscuses but as anyone knows that puts the birds up for all to see and judge it's not easy getting everything in your favor on that that the judge is under your team with pen and score sheet,Starfire I respect all fliers that will put thier birds up for a judge,thats where the talk stops,you also learn real quik not to boast on your birds because they can and will make a fool out of you on fly day,Starfire I have put up teams that on the right day could win any fly only to have them look like a kit of youngsters on fly day with a judge standing under them and looking so ugly that I couldnt even watch them LOL,it's all part of the game,lost kit's,loosing the stars out of the team,weather,hawks you name it were up against it,but just like the energizer bunny we just keep comeing back LOL,Starfire I expect to see you in the finals this year,if your birds are as good as you claim you should have no problems,time to quit talking and time to show the goods.
|
STARFIRE
18 posts
Feb 10, 2004
9:32 AM
|
hey motherlode Whats your name? i want to see your fly records.you can say what you want when you are anonymus.I wont believe you till you say your name.Why are you afraid to say who you are? Im not afraid to tell you who I am.
|
Mother lode lofts
Guest
Feb 10, 2004
9:45 AM
|
Star Fire,My name is Scott Campbell
|
rollerpigeon1963
1 post
Feb 21, 2004
7:12 PM
|
Scott,
Your such a ham LOL LOL. Hey when are you going to have a extra hen ole buddy LOL LOL LOL
Brian Middaugh
nbrconline.com
|
JayTXPiGEON
1 post
Sep 11, 2005
5:24 PM
|
Hello my name is Jay and i was looking for pheasant,helmets,lahores and i wanted these breeds in red,black,yellow in each breed
if anyone has these breeds and are interested in selling please call
ask for max 972-679-0393
or my e-mail is Jay_Azami@Hotmail.com
|
Newflyer
18 posts
Sep 14, 2005
10:38 AM
|
I maybe new to Rollers ...........But I do know that once the SHOW people get involved with any type of birds, dogs etc, etc. All they do is SCREW-UP what ever they put their hands on. Personnaly , I know this because I ve been involved with our four-legged friends for over 30 yrs. As a trainer and exibitor of them. Believe me I have seen a lot ot SCREW-UPS that they precieve as a GOOD improvement to the breeds. Now that I ve got that off my chest. LOL I personnaly dont have any need for the SHOW PEOPLE, birds or dogs. I ll just keep my ears open and keep learning from all that are TRUE Flyers. Keep feeding me all your knowldge. I have a trenendise PETITE..LOL
Paul in Ohio
|