Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2888 posts
Nov 08, 2008
8:02 AM
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A Breeders Challenge Question
Let’s assume you have a loft of rollers with no major faults to speak of, of all the same family, and had …
1 bird that rolled with good style
1 bird that had great velocity
1 bird that was frequent in rolling
1 bird that was deep
1 bird that was of good character
Question 1
In order to produce the best rollers possible from this group, could you end up with a bird that combined all these traits?
Question 2
How many generations/years would it take to get offspring that showed better than average traits in each of these categories to have a complete or ideal roller?
Question 3
What would be the order of traits you would start with and build on?
Question 4
How would flying competition improve this effort to breed a roller that combined all these traits? Or would it not matter?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 1:01 PM
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quickspin
889 posts
Nov 08, 2008
8:24 AM
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I would cull that family and start with another one that has almost everything combine already as finding one with everything is really hard. And working with those will be a mission and might not even work. It sure would take a long time to add some traits to it plus more are missing.
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SALAS LOFT
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2890 posts
Nov 08, 2008
11:08 AM
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I think your missing the point of the "challenge"...can it be done and could you do it?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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ezeedad
828 posts
Nov 08, 2008
11:44 AM
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Okay Tony,
I see that nobody wants to try to answer this... I can see why.... But I think that the answer lies somewhere in what are the other qualities of the birds you mention. Also there is nothing wrong with attempting to improve your existing stock without running after some new family of birds. It would be much more of a challenge, and also more fulfilling in the long run to improve your existing family using your own observations and experimentation using birds that you grow to understand from experience.
So I would try to pick the best overall bird within the family and mate it to the best overall bird of the opposite sex. If any of the 5 birds you mention had bad flaws, like rolling down, I might not even try them.
To me the bird that best combined the characteristics you mention would be the best for stock. Of course, once you bred them you could also begin to learn which ones are the best produicers as well.
Quest. 1. You may never breed a bird that combines the quality of the 5 birds for each trait of that individual. Who knows....never is a long time...
Quest. 2 This would not be an overnight project. It all depends on the degree of the traits within the family.
Quest. 3 1 Gotta have speed....
2. If it is a Birmingham Roller if should have the right style
3. Character = control and smarts...gotta have it.
4. I love that frequency...
5. Depth is icing on the cake... I love it too... Tough choices.....
Quest. 4 Flying competition might encourage you to breed a lot..fly a lot.... In that way it could help.. It also could be a destraction if it made you focus on frequency rather than speed, style and depth which are really what Birmingham rollers are supposed to be made of...
Paul G
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George R.
1138 posts
Nov 08, 2008
12:28 PM
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Paul I have talked to several people that breed and fly Birmingham rollers in Competetions , and not ONE has ever said that they FOCUS on FREQUENCY only.
Most said they look for the overall Package , Roll, speed , quality, frequency,, kit chemistry,, ETC.
I would not reccomend any one trying to make a strain unless they had years of expierence and years worth of TIME to WASTE.
All a person has to do is pick up a NBRC bulletin and see who has been hitting the score sheets OFTEN then contact them and see if they can get some Birds.....
the Novice
George
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 3:27 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2891 posts
Nov 08, 2008
1:01 PM
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Hey George, thanks for responding, but what you are saying is a given. I not trying to ascertain if a person should start with proven birds or not.
This is merely an "intellectual pursuit" to challenge, or, in other words, to get experienced roller breeders to open up and share their take on this particular "Breeders Challenge" question.
I am curious to know what they think and how they might approach this topic. Their thoughts and ideas might provide some level of insight as to how they went about developing their own strain.
Newbies and not so new newbies who are paying attention might benefit from what they read. After all this IS a discussion forum, right? ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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quickspin
890 posts
Nov 08, 2008
1:27 PM
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Question 1
In order to produce the best rollers possible from this group, could you end up with a bird that combined all these traits? Maybe- If you know what to do Yes.
Question 2
How many generations/years would it take to get offspring that showed better than average traits in each of these categories to have a complete or ideal roller? I don't think better but around the same yes. You can't have better if you start low you get what you put in it. Ideal Roller not even with a life time will achieve it, you can always get better and better.
Question 3
What would be the order of traits you would start with and build on? Kit excellent, Control the roll, Style, Velocity, depth, Frequency, Character,
Question 4
How would flying competition improve this effort to breed a roller that combined all these traits? Or would it not matter? There are guys that don't compete and have better quality birds that guys that compete. I would think it doesn't matter.
But still I would start with another family.
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ezeedad
829 posts
Nov 08, 2008
1:43 PM
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George,
You GOTTA have frequency to win competitions.. But Tony's question is more about breeding the best rollers.
I believe that what we need is some of the type of breeders that created the breed in the first place. Someone like Bill Richards or Harry Bellfield. Those guys created strains that were incredible. Pensom got birds from them. It used to be a lot easier to breed good rollers than it is now because we have gotten farther away from their blood and their decisions...
I think it would be a greater accomplishment to be a great breeder like one of those men than to win any competition.
Paul G
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Windjammer Loft
469 posts
Nov 08, 2008
3:05 PM
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I'd get rid of them all and buy some of those really really good RUBY's of yours......LOL.. OH my, I did do that....lol. No problems now... As for question #3.
rolling ability, velocity, depth, control and type.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 3:24 PM
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Oldfart
876 posts
Nov 08, 2008
3:18 PM
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Tony, I'm taking a shot but I also consider myself in the novice catagory as a breeder.
Question 1: I think you could end up with a stud of birds that carried most if not all of the traits and the occasional bird that had all the traits.
Question 2: I think that with carefull consideration in the pairings this should be feasible within four to five generations.
Question 3: My first pairing would be for good character and good style. The prodigy from this pairing would be matched with their parents and the bird that has great velocity and within reason the bird that was more frequent. I value a bird that is consistent as well as frequent in the roll, but not a bird that is so frequent that all it does is disrupt the kit by its consistent flipping. Great style with velocity and good character would be my objective. Depth can be breed into this type of bird by pairing best to best, while striving to improve or maintain the orignal qualitys of style,velocity and character.
Question 4: Competition would not matter to me but as a motivator for fanciers that care it could be a learning and somewhat sobering experience. It takes nerve and guts to place the best you have, your babies in jeopardy of a critical eye and on the best of days things can go horribly wrong.
These are just my thoughts, with this and four dollars you can get a cup of coffee almost anywhere! ;-))
Thom
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 3:19 PM
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Flipmode
243 posts
Nov 08, 2008
6:07 PM
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I'd mate
1.The "Fast" with the "Frequent".
2.The "Style" with the "Depth".
3.Cross mate the best offspring on each other.
4.Take the best from that mating and run em to the "Character".
5.Cross your fingers and walaah!??????
6.If still nothing, Cull em!
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3757
1008 posts
Nov 08, 2008
6:24 PM
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Tony your question is a good one and is stimulating. I would do the following.
1 bird that rolled with good style This bird would be used
1 bird that had great velocity This bird would be used
1 bird that was frequent in rolling I would assume it was frequent but the style is not good and it does not have velocity so I would not use this pigeon
1 bird that was deep This is not important and because of gene variables you will get a deep one eventually so I would not use this bird.
1 bird that was of good character This bird would be used
So I would only use the following to build my strain and only these.
bird that rolled with good style
bird that had great velocity
bird that was of good character
All offspring would be flown hard and culled hard.
It must be noted that just because a person gets birds from someone who is winning does not insure he or she will even hit the charts. Also, he or she will still have to build and evaluate the family so your question applies to anyone who acquires any family of pigeons. Anyone that does not understand this well no comment. If it was so easy getting birds from someone who is winning you would see a huge majority of people breeding Niebels and Biker as they have the highest record for the World cup if that is your goal. It is not that simplistiC. Also, animal husbandry for dogs is different from rollers and racing pigeons. It must be noted that many of the famous quarter horses bred junk and many never bred anything worth while.
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George R.
1142 posts
Nov 08, 2008
7:43 PM
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there are no Gurantees BUT if a person gets Comp TESTED stock his CHANCES of flying a good kit INCREASE BIG TIME.
There are Guys who just got into Birds in the last 5 years and they already have MORE MASTER FLYER points then GUYS that had Pigeons for over 20 YEARS.
That is Proof that good stock is the best way to START.
as far as Monty and Hiene are concerned , a person would have to have tons of expierence to fly those Familys of Birds and get the Best out of them they are NOT user friendly .
There are strains that are more user freindly then those , and the roller community KNOWS what strain that is.
Dash for Cash was a very good Sire and a Helluva racehorse.
The Novice
George
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 7:46 PM
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Ballrollers
1588 posts
Nov 08, 2008
8:09 PM
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George,
I think you are right on the money here. And I am a perfect example. I got my current family of birds right after a guy won the National Championship in the 11-bird (Jay Yandle)and after visiting and seeing his birds in the air. He became my mentor and I became a student of the competition game. And it paid off. Three and four years later, these birds are winning the region and in the top three and twelve in the nation and in the world. Now, I am no wizard with rollers....yes, I am a good student......I pay attention....AND I selected good birds to work with.
Also, I don't think we should take anything away from frequency and depth. Ask Joe Bob or Clay or Jay. They will tell you that the reason my kit has been beating theirs has been frequency. Averaging thirty-five to forty breaks in 20 minutes is hard to beat. Of course the quality and speed have to be there. But some of their kits have the speed and quality, but so much emphasis was placed on those attributes that they let frequency get away from them...nd they are now looking to my birds to regain that frequency. Same goes with depth. Breeding 15-20 foot rollers and hoping for 25-35 foot rollers might be a long wait. Like George said, some guys are still waiting after 30 years. You had better have genes for 25-35 foot depth in your stud if you expect it in your kits. Again, many kits around the country have emphasized speed and quality and not depth and we are ending up with fast, short, snappy, 15-20 foot comp kits accross the country. Of course there are exceptions...I am speaking in general.
JMHO,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 8:09 PM
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Ballrollers
1589 posts
Nov 08, 2008
8:15 PM
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Tony,
I understand your objective. If you have those qualities in a stud of rollers, there is no doubt in my mind that you can produce birds with many or all the attributes, eventually. (I am assuming that each of those stock bids are capable of reproducing that trait.) And I agree that it would probably be 4-5 generations of a process of combining two traits, flying them, taking the best that inherited both qualites and then breeding to a third to incorporate the next trait, and so forth. But I want every one of those attributes in the stock loft...that's the fastest track.......leave nothing up to chance if you want it to happen in your lifetime!!
And another good question to ask is, "What if you had the choice to go to an outcross to get those attributes?" After discussing whether one should use birds from within the family or use an out-cross, based on Joe Bob's experience with out-crossing to improve those traits, he reveals that that has been the long way around. He feels it would have happened sooner by selecting birds from within his own family with the traits he wanted to improve on.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 8:20 PM
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brudahpete
100 posts
Nov 08, 2008
9:11 PM
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Don't forget stability. I've seen a lot of fast and deep rollers that had crappy form.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
1917 posts
Nov 08, 2008
11:43 PM
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Sound like all the good are in that family already I would work around those birds without going outside.4ever might be along time but I got all the patience and time as long as I'm breathing my last breath here on this earth and I'm healthy..
----------I would build my family using these traits...and you right Pete stability is very important..
Ralph
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2008 11:43 PM
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smoke747
1378 posts
Nov 09, 2008
12:27 AM
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You could end up with a good family of birds with the propper selection. Every pigeon has to be used considering the trait mentioned. Flipmode took the approach I would try considering all the birds had minimun falts. like, kitting, stability, type, balance, and expresion. I think it take about 4 generations just to get a basic idea on which birds to cull or keep. then I would divide them into to sides and go from there.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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smoke747
1379 posts
Nov 09, 2008
12:27 AM
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You could end up with a good family of birds with the propper selection. Every pigeon has to be used considering the trait mentioned. Flipmode took the approach I would try considering all the birds had minimun falts. like, kitting, stability, type, balance, and expresion. I think it take about 4 generations just to get a basic idea on which birds to cull or keep. then I would divide them into to sides and go from there.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Alohazona
473 posts
Nov 09, 2008
10:37 AM
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I agree with Flipmode and Smokes methods.I also have to agree that once the attributes are comming through that frequecy is very important.It's no fun standing under a kit ,getting a stiff neck,waiting for them to break or roll.
I also agree with Dr.L.D.,that if you get birds from a top competitor,that guarantee's NOTHING!You still have to work the birds.
Cliff,I think you are in a small minority.Your mentor's saw something in you, they were very gracious to you,and you studied them well.You did very well in both your breeding choices and your training,thats your credit...Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
474 posts
Nov 09, 2008
10:50 AM
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Cliff,
I finally found what I needed within the same line.My outcross projects turned out some pretty good ones in the begining ,but they didn,t hold up in the long run.Some strains click,some do not.Some of the best rollers I have were bred within the same line.Some have gotten better with age,most are as consistant as they always have been.That is were I believe character comes in......Aloha,Todd
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J_Star
1771 posts
Nov 10, 2008
6:53 AM
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Tony,
To answer your questions is yes you can achieve youngsters that inherit all the 5 traits within 3 to 4 years.
First you mate the first and second birds together (Pair A) and mate the third bird with the fifth bird (Pair B) leaving the deep bird out for now.
From (A) use the best youngster who shows combined traits from both parents and will call him (AA). From (B) use the best youngster who shows the combined traits from both parents and will call him (BB).
Mate (AA) and (BB) together and we will call this mating (C) and the best youngster that exhibit the four traits from both parents with the last bird (Deep) that we left him out in the beginning.
The best youngsters out of the last mating (C + Deep) that exhibits all the traits you desire can be mated together the following year to make more of them. Then Discard all of the parents and only mate the youngsters from (C + Deep) together and you will be in your way to have a loft full of 5s.
To answer your last question is that if you don’t have excellent kitter birds, then no matter what kind of birds you have will not get you to get anywhere in competition. The name of game in competition is kitting which is number one and everything else falls next.
At the end you can call proudly this family yours and not purchased off of somebody with a name
Jay
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2008 7:16 AM
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rtwilliams
240 posts
Nov 10, 2008
7:07 AM
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1 bird that rolled with good style
1 bird that had great velocity
1 bird that was frequent in rolling
1 bird that was deep
1 bird that was of good character
Question 1
In order to produce the best rollers possible from this group, could you end up with a bird that combined all these traits?
yes but it would take some time, at least 3 or 4 generations.
Question 2
How many generations/years would it take to get offspring that showed better than average traits in each of these categories to have a complete or ideal roller?
first generation if you were lucky would have two traits (velocity and depth), and (Style and deep)examples. Breeding from the best offspring showing 2 different traits, you could possibly have 4 of the traits showing in the second generation. you would have to be very lucky. Then who knows from there.
Question 3
What would be the order of traits you would start with and build on?
I would want Depth and Style first. Working together in the kit is important to me.
Question 4
How would flying competition improve this effort to breed a roller that combined all these traits? Or would it not matter?
As long as the offspring were flown and evaluated i do not think it would matter. Competition gives you an outside perspective and if you are competitive, it gives you the drive to improve.
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RT Williams
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Velo99
1903 posts
Nov 10, 2008
9:37 PM
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Jay beat me to it. Doc is on point too.
There are several different methods of breeding which could reveal quick results. For instance if the good character bird was a cockbird one could poly him to the velocity and style hens,foster the crap out of them, then put the best f1 hens back onto the cockbird. Pretzel the best offspring from the third season. Fostering as many as possible each season.
By the fifth season one could see some widespread distribution of the good character which usually goes hand in hand with good rollers. If the genes took from the hens there should be a pretty high percentage of prepotent birds, and rollers that perform to the standards most of us look for.
jmho
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2008 9:38 PM
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