Lipper
61 posts
Nov 15, 2008
9:56 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
0042 wrote:
lipper
Maybe in Your family they don't get any better or you just don't fly them into the 2nd year to see. but to disagree with a person, who is shareing with us about His family. Well I'll leave it at that. enjoy the hobby......
I don't raise anything that does not have to perform consistently. If something is going to be put in the stock loft it had better keep showing up the younger birds either in the air or with its prodigy, or its worn out its usefulness. From what I have been reading here most don't get to see their birds mature do to BOP. The birds I decide to breed from will be put back with the best kit I can breed. This breeder better hope he out performs the rest, or he is in the kitbox or worse, and some other bird is in his nestbox..
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Longroller
18 posts
Nov 15, 2008
2:33 PM
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Good stuff here..I agree with most of it..but I have an argument with the racing homer guys in the same vein. What does the young bird go through the first 9 months? It goes from egg size to flying ability in 30 days. Then the eye changes in the next 15 days. Then it learns to fly and whoa..it has a tail and can turn on a dime..Muscles start to grow..it learns to trap train..then something comes in and it starts to feel like a "she" or a "he"..male. Oh, yes, about this time the body says..lets grow a new set of feathers..about that time we want to race it 100 miles or fly competition and jack the feed around and yep..this ole-bird is a good 6-8 months old. Are we expecting too much from that which is under 12-14-16 months of age? How many out there have birds flying (not breeders) that are 3 years of age..mighty few. I feel for those with the BOP issue..and what to do about it..????? I also sometimes think we inadvertenly take it out on the young bird.
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Shadow
269 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:24 AM
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Great reading re this thread with lots of learned input,would agree that at 12 months old a roller can be physically the finished rolling package,but not the finished article per se, regardless of how good it is,there is so much more for it to comprehend and learn,maybe not about rolling ability,one question I would ask,has anyone got a a 12 month old that's a kit lead bird,I have never yet seen one,whilst being flown with older birds,is there some kind of pecking order here,I am also of the opinion and do believe that they also become more kit wise,rolling from any position within the kit,with age,and its with a degree of age can experience only come,and its with experience,that you have the finished article,Rollers while being individuals, but its as kit birds they are flown and judge,and for this reason,they must have more than sheer rolling ability.
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 1:26 AM
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Windjammer Loft
492 posts
Nov 16, 2008
8:21 AM
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Lipper.......I have to disagree with you on the age factor. In my families it takes at least 12 mo. for them to come in full. Then at least another yr to see if they are holding up to what I "want" out of them.
Longroller......talking about "homers", that's a completely different animal. Some are bred strickly for short distances and some are bred for long distances. Seems like your comparing apples to oranges.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Scott
1248 posts
Nov 16, 2008
10:22 AM
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(How many out there have birds flying (not breeders) that are 3 years of age..mighty few. I feel for those with the BOP issue..and what to do about it..???)
Many do, these are the core of the team and the ones that know how to deal with the BOPs over flys ect. , few young teams are even worth even watching other than seeing thier potenial, at least that is my opinion.
If I couldn't fly old birds I would raise Fantails, young bird teams just don't do it for me, of coarse there are those exceptions, but you just can't count on them.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 10:24 AM
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j .wanless
472 posts
Nov 16, 2008
11:55 AM
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hi all
sorry scott ive got to disagree with you .maybe its just my area which i know it is but we fly y/bs that would hammer just about all old bird kits in the uk.not always for work rate but certainly for style quality + speed.i seen y/b this year at my + deano fosters that roll as good as they possibly can get.and we have been breading these birds for a lot of years.2 or 3 year ago i flew i think it was 12 in my w/c final team that finished 8th when rick schoening judged them same y/b won our aerc fly our national as y/b then won nationals following year as yearlings.deano came 2nd in w/c last year + i bet he had y.bs in his team.i agree scott that these type of things are rare .but ive travelled far + wide + seen some of the top teams in the world + have never seen the quality of mine + deanos y/bs. and apart from loosing them to bops or overflys they are just as good the following year.so when people say they dont mature until they are older they havnt seen what ive seen.
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Lipper
68 posts
Nov 16, 2008
12:23 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
It looks like what we could all agree on, is that we have fanciers who see the age thing differently. Hey its this sort of thing that keeps the world going round, kind of a republican vs democrat kind of thing....
Myself, I am not going to feed a bird for 2-3 years to see how he develops environmentally. I believe that breeders who have had a strain of birds for years, have a pretty good idea of how a bird will be in the second and third year. I will however pay close attention to what has been stated here as I move forward. There have been some very interesting points of view here..
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Longroller
20 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:24 PM
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Windjammer..Paul..I am talking about Columba livia (BB Rock Pigeon) and down. All performance birds. Even show birds will bulk up a bit after the first molt..but the "Mental" of a performance bird puts up with so much the first 12 months of life..I believe we expect too much from them. I know guys that cut feed and the like at 3-4 months of age..ridiculous..Granted..they do race homers at 9 months..from 300 miles (don't ask for a % that end up at home..they don't like to talk about it)..but when we in the roller fancy want birds to come in to the spin at 5-7 months (because of BOP etc) and that we want to win competition at 9-10 months with them..most of your old breeders will tell you that, that particular bird will either be dead (roll down) or close to worthless when 2 years of age. Again..how many 2-4 year old birds do you see in flying kits today? Somebody help me here....
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Scott
1251 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:29 PM
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(Again..how many 2-4 year old birds do you see in flying kits today? Somebody help me here....)
Most the top flyers are flying old birds- as for myself the bulk of my A team is all 2 years plus,oldest maybe 6 year old
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 1:33 PM
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Scott
1252 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:32 PM
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John, and I also had young birds in my W/C team last year and placed well, but it was the old bird core that was the glue.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Longroller
22 posts
Nov 16, 2008
2:03 PM
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Thank you Scott..I am glad to hear that and it gives me more trust in humanity (smile). Most of what I hear anymore is yb yb yb..db (dead bird). Again, thank you.
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Lipper
69 posts
Nov 16, 2008
4:24 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Scott Wrote:
0042, I have several birds in my A-team that have been through many hawk seasons,over flys ect. , there is a reason they are still there that goes beyond thier ability.
In fact I would say that breeding out of those young star boneheads is a problem in that they are not the ones that can survive year after year.
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Scott,
Are you giving up anything when you breed birds that can survive hawk's, overfly's etc.? Reasons beyond ability? Are we not out to breed birds that are fast, deep, tight, and kit well? It is very unfortunate that birds of prey have become such a problem today, but from your statements it sounds as though you feel we should breed a survival rate into rollers? Overfly's are something that can be controlled by the flier, by watching the weather and owning a barometer..Homing capabilities are an instinct, that can be honed to some extent with training. It is not a lack of a birds intelligence when an overfly occurrs, but rather high winds at higher elevations, that the birds are just not physically capable of combatting. They are forced miles and miles from home with very little chance of finding their way back again. I have flown homers in races and had storms come up somewhere. It took them weeks to get home when they should have been back in a day or two. So by this I would assume homers are at risk to overflys as well?
Again, just my thoughts on the matter..
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Scott
1256 posts
Nov 16, 2008
5:32 PM
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(Are you giving up anything when you breed birds that can survive hawk's, overfly's etc.? Reasons beyond ability? Are we not out to breed birds that are fast, deep, tight, and kit well?)
Am I giving up anything ? Mike there is nothing but a net gain, bone head young birds are the first to get ate, the more that get ate the more that you are nothing but a dinner bell for a food trough.
I want birds that know when to shut it off whether that danger is ht or BOP , dead is dead,and dead don't help you, it is also a stability thing.
I want birds that you described above that can hang year in and year out because good teams are built over several seasons and not just one season, no one is breeding truely good birds in great numbers so if they don't last all you have is a lucky day here and there.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 5:45 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2916 posts
Nov 17, 2008
8:29 PM
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It's NOT changed, the title is more descriptive in my view. Please read my thread on "Site Publisher - Editor - Writer Has Discretion" for more information.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Lipper
78 posts
Nov 18, 2008
6:20 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Below is an excerpt by Everett Smith: Who I might add is much more qualified than I am:
In the Iowa - Illinois area where I live and compete with a fine group of dedicated roller meen, we fly only young birds; so they must develop their spin early in order to successfully compete in kit competition by late October or early November. We have no old birds to fall back on and no late developers that don't spin until next year, or maybe not at all. Every fall fly it's a brand new "Ball Game". We cannot rely on, or fly what we flew last year, so we can immediately see if we are improving our kits as the years go by....
With these early developing birds a roll down once in a while is to be expected, as occasionally a physically weak bird or an immature bird cannot handle the spin that is bred into it. However, roll downs, constant flippers, too fast flyers, too long flyers, poor kit birds and wild flyers have no place in a competition kit.
All of these kinds of birds may become better or worse as they matuture. Fly them and enjoy them as some of them might make good flying birds later, however, I doubt that they will make good stock birds.......
This article can be read in it's entirety on page 54 of the current NBRC club bulletin...
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Ballrollers
1592 posts
Nov 18, 2008
6:56 AM
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I gotta agree with Tony and Paul...it's almost always a matter of degree. Most guys just don't have "the best" to work with...so we use "the best" that we have available, though it may have minor faults. And we try to pair it with a bird that does not have those minor faults, hopefully to offset the undesireables and produce some young that inherit the best of both. But the genetic odds are against us in this situation so the percentages of this occurrence are very low. But that's how we constantly improve out families. It's a long slow road. And participating in competition keeps us focused intently on our objective each year and keeps us from getting lazy. It's very hard for the backyard flyer to have the discipline to stay focused without everything that goes along with the competition.
And Scott is right on the money also. You have to fly those birds out...or there is a question mark about its true quality. Things can change for the better or worse in the second and third year of developement, and can make that bird more or less suited for the stock loft. The fact that it is getting harder to fly them out (BOP) doesn't alter that fact. It just means that some guys may chose to take more chances in the stock loft rather than taking a chance with the BOP. Aand that will make the road even longer toward the goal that you have established for your family.
Cliff
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Windjammer Loft
504 posts
Nov 18, 2008
7:39 AM
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Lipper.....You made this statement "Some rollers are later developers than others just like hounds..Sorry but I dont want to wait 2-3 years to use my stock, I dont want late results, I want them now..I had a Grand Nite Champion who was a little over a year old, he smoked dogs that were 5-7 years old.."
I also have been into dog trainning and showing for the last 35yrs. I too have seen a dog at a very young age "smoke" the older ones.... But alot of these younger dogs have also fallen "apart" by the time they hit a yr and a half to 2 yrs.
So, where does that leave you??? Do you want earlier delovepers??? Or do you want birds that are stable, well balanced with a degree of consistance???
I would rather take my chance on an older mature bird that has those traits.
And as far as the homers are concerned. That to me is still a different animal. Some are bred strickly for
"speedsters"(young ones)and some are "long distance runners"(older birds). In my experience with homers I have never seen a speedster also flown as a long distance runner. Think about it..... It's either one or the other, but not both. Just from my own experiences..
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2008 8:08 AM
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Scott
1258 posts
Nov 18, 2008
9:41 AM
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Lipper, that artical is bunk,flying dependable mature birds has nothing to do when they come into the roll.
Pop corning youngster kits just don't cut it for me,but if all you can manage is youngsters than that is what you should fly I guess if that gets your cookie.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2008 10:12 AM
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yang501424
200 posts
Nov 18, 2008
10:55 AM
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Scott I also want to know how many people out there has a kit of 2years and older myself. I know theres people out there that raises over hundreds of bird a year because? I think because of unstable bird bouncing (BOP excluded). I wonder how many out there breeds a A-team kit every year? and what happens to the previous birds.
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Good Game Loft
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bman
627 posts
Nov 18, 2008
11:52 AM
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Mike (Lipper), I won't offer an opinion on the birds but as far as peformance dogs go,you hit the nail on the head. If a young star falls apart later it is the handlers fault.I have seen it time and again.----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2008 11:53 AM
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Velo99
1913 posts
Nov 18, 2008
1:21 PM
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Lets use another analogy and look at it from another angle.
The NFL for example. How many Heisman trophy winners are still in the game? These young men were THE BEST in college football. How many of the top ten draft picks from the last three years are still in the game?
Example: JaMarcus Russell
JaMarcus Russell is the 2007 Sugar Bowl Most Valuable Player
JaMarcus Russell is the 2006 First-Team All-SEC (AP, SEC Coaches)
JaMarcus Russell is the 2006 Davey O’Brien Semifinalist
JaMarcus Russell is the 2006 SEC Offensive Player of the Week (Sept. 30 vs. Mississippi State)
JaMarcus Russell is the 2006 SEC Offensive Player of the Week (Oct. 14 vs. Kentucky)
JaMarcus Russell is the 2006 SEC Offensive Player of the Week (Nov. 4 vs. Tennessee)
JaMarcus Russell is the 2005 SEC Player of the Year (Columbus Touchdown Club)
JaMarcus Russell is the 2005 SEC Player of the Week (Oct. 8 vs. Vanderbilt)
JaMarcus Russell is considered by many to have the strongest arm of any QB, past or present.
JaMarcus Russell can throw a football 80 yards
Jamarcus Russell Season Highs
"On December 23, 2007 against the Jacksonville Jaguars, Russell threw his first career touchdown pass, a 2-yard pass to Zach Miller. He finished the game with seven completions on 23 pass attempts for 83 yards, with one touchdown pass, three interceptions and a lost fumble.
Russell finished his rookie season with 36 completed passes on 66 attempts, 373 yards, two touchdowns and four interceptions. After the San Diego game, Kiffin named Russell Oakland Raiders starting quarterback for the 2008 season
His weight, because it has been subjected to ridicule. His intellect, because of widespread rumors in the wake of the NFL combine. His commitment and judgment, because 23-year-old multimillionaires are accompanied by speculation about lifestyle. His ability to run an offense, read a defense and lead a team because he is not established as a pro.
Russell's very presence prompts stares and whispers because he has that cannon and a fat contract to serve as quarterback and savior of a Raiders franchise in the sorriest state of its 48-year existence.
So when J-Russ buckles up Monday night for the season opener as the team's undisputed centerpiece, he will be under considerably more pressure than that which is brought by the Denver Broncos.
2008 9 games 120 comp,238 att,50.4%,1445yds,6.1yd avg,6 td ,4 int,26 sacked,70.8 QB rating.
Not very impressive when compared to all the awards he won in college.
Now factor in he got an over 30 million dollar contract and has a 70 percent rating. Thats a D, almost failing.
Does the hype we lay on ourselves and our friends when we are talking about how good are birds are gonna be match expectations or do we have a bunch of D grade flyers?
Its all in the perception that we have and a hope of things to come. I know theres a lot of difference between people and birds but the selection process remains the same. It is based on performance.
When a YB is in the yb team and does well for a short time do we immediately stock it or do we wait? Move it to the A team and see what happens? Personally this is why I like two and three year old birds to be CONSIDERED for the stock loft.
You guys need to slow down a little and give birds time to develop. I have long been a proponent of the long range planning and development of my kits. Its an evil cycle if you dont have the patience to fly and actually find the best you have in a program. No one can tell you whats the best,you have to see it. Numbers look good on paper but till the bird is in the air or the offsrping are performing like we expect its all a crap shoot. Way too many variables can affect the performance of a yb. `Til it goes thru a season or three experiences the weather changing,lives a little life,it is basically just a flesh and bone bag of genes.
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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/()_)__66___()_)\__\
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Windjammer Loft
509 posts
Nov 18, 2008
1:45 PM
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Mike........Iam talking about my experiences with Working Dogs. I do alot with Police work, Schutzhund, Agility and many more aspects of the Working breed. I seen many cases of a "young" dog falling apart. Too much emphissum is put on them to finish.. What I mean by this is they finish their degrees/titles in a certain field at an early age. Give or take a few months either side of a year. Now by the time they are of age where they can be X-rayed, to getr certified. Say,to prove how good their hips are good and show no signs of being dispalstic. Which the dogs should be at least 1 /12 to 2yrs old. Many of them can't get certified with good hips.. Iam not sure if your type of hounds get this type of certification or not. But all the Working type breeds that I work with have to get this types of certification, especially if they are to be put into breeding stock. Be it males or females. Regardless of what their accomplishments are up to this point. If their Hips don't PASS.. To me and my colleagues this means
....these dogs have fallen part. Mainly because of TOO much pressure has been put on them at too earily of an age. Not letting them develope correctly, physically as well as mentally. This is just how I see things.
It's your turn now......lol
Kenny....your post also helps validate what Iam expressing also....thanks buddy
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2008 1:48 PM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
1976 posts
Nov 18, 2008
5:49 PM
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.".these dogs have fallen part. Mainly because of TOO much pressure has been put on them at too eerily of an age. Not letting them developed correctly, physically as well as mentally. This is just how I see things.
I agree with you Paul 100 percent..I use to train dogs too but they were pitbulls and when push at an early age they are broken.. there were times I waited to a year and a half because they had to be mature mentally and their hearts in the right place.".
How many people have old birds good old birds well I understand alot are in the stock loft.but an old bird team must be a pleasure to watch not much messing with them just keep them in ...fly two or three times a week.Monty Niebel was a guy who never flew a young bird team like he did an old one ..his thing was an old bird team..Monty was the Champion of Champion 3 time World cup winner..I understand now you have to put them away early because of BOP but if I can't fly them till a year at least or a yr and a half them I don't want them... I have one that was good until he hit 2 yrs old and starting rolling 25 ft and when he stop he went down another 20 tail riding he never did that when he was young imagine if I would had stock that bird I wouldn't know until later on maybe 1 or 2 generation it would had show up and taking me a step backwards again.. because like breed like..am I correct.?.
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Ralph
Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2008 6:33 PM
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Scott
1260 posts
Nov 18, 2008
5:52 PM
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(I would be very interested in seeing these as well as Scott's accomplishments in breeding..If your accomplishments are in the "show pen" and not "performance" there is no need sharing with me.)
I'll have you know that I took home a ribbon from the county fair last year
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1261 posts
Nov 18, 2008
5:55 PM
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(As far as these rollers that have survived these BOP attacks year after year Scott. My guess is they were probably not doing much in the air,)
Yep, I'm sure you are right
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rtwilliams
254 posts
Nov 18, 2008
6:10 PM
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Pertaining to age of rollers in a kit box I thought Jay Starleys Comments were interesting.
" Keys To competition Rollers by Tom Hatcher and Friends"
How do you select birds for your competition kit?
Jay's response "I don't put birds less than a year old in my "a" team. The average age of my "A" team is about 5 years old. The team changes according to who is doing the best at the time."
Jay is a master flier for the NBRC and has placed high in the World cup and the Fall fly,not to mention numerous wins with his local club.
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RT Williams
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RodSD
46 posts
Nov 18, 2008
6:34 PM
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I think breeding best to best just gives a better probability of getting good birds.
In racing homer, "best" could mean winning first or the top 10-20%. Homing pigeons, because of their speed, can outfly a hawk and has greater chance of survival to know whether it is a good bird. It has time. For rollers it is very risky it seems. You have this limited time period because BOP can get them easily.
One famous racer says that you have to keep your best, sell the good ones, and cull the rest.
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velocity1
37 posts
Nov 21, 2008
4:12 PM
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Tony why did you erase my post on this subject?Also why has 0042 been banned from this site?
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2921 posts
Nov 21, 2008
5:47 PM
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LOL, Chris...LOL
When you know what you are talking about...LOL...forget it dude...LOL...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2922 posts
Nov 21, 2008
5:51 PM
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Hey Vel, what did you post that was against the posting policy? I don't remember...trust me, I am sure its NO BIG DEAL!
As for the "how dare someone edit my posts" folks, what I do is none of your beeswax. Your not on staff.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
1670 posts
Nov 21, 2008
5:59 PM
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Chris,,
First off...it does not matter a dumb diddly dumb dumb do..how much pigeon experience you have to be a member of this site....and just because you have flown birds for 50 years....does not mean anything..you have to follow the posting policy.
Just because you have driven a car for 30 years does not give you the right to drive 100mph everywhere.....
Another thing....what does giving somebody a time out on posting have to do with making money....now If this was my site I would have boot you for that comment.
Tony puts in a lot of time and energy to maintain this site.....I doubt tony is making so much money off the site...I think that comment was rude and uncalled for.....
Tony is putting his strain of birds out there....MOST people bitch because they never have the chance to get quality birds and now he puts the birds out there to give people a chance to get some good birds and you belittle him with just in it for the money......give me a break...I hope you apologize to Tony for the comment...
Trust me dude..you have a whole 14 posts...I have been on this list since the begining and have seen lots of comments and none were as rude as yours.......so take it from a guy that has over 1,000 post..that was not cool.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2008 6:00 PM
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velocity1
38 posts
Nov 21, 2008
7:05 PM
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Well i guess it's no win situation here.Do as you please it's your site.I'll just stick with the reading since it's non of my beezwax.Thanks
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winwardrollers
31 posts
Nov 21, 2008
8:22 PM
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Katyroller
You must be talking about breeding... show rollers.
Performance would be last.. if you were breeding show rollers that I would agree with. If the bird had good feathers and character and type you have a good chance of have a good performance for the birds during a pigeon show.
If.. we are talking about breeding rollers... performance needs to be first. Kiting, character, .. etc. and if they have any feathers that is just a "bonus" for a good roller because a good roller doesn't need many feathers to fly and roll.
I have pick breeders young and have waited for two years but they still have to breed good and if they get replaced in the breeding pen they go back in to the fly loft. If they can show me good thing in the air again they have a chance to go back to the breeder pen.
When I go to a fly competition. We always tell the newbie that at least the birds were good at "kitting" as the birds are flying like Homer.
When I go to a fly competition. People don't look in the air at the kit and say what great "character" these birds have.
When I go to a fly competition. I don't hear comments about how great the "Feather Quality" is as the birds are flying over head.
Preformance is what I look for and remember.
Some of the best roller are the birds that don't moult out well if they have been worked hard because all their energy is use in the air and not on the perch making pretty feathers.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2008 8:34 PM
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Scott
1264 posts
Nov 21, 2008
9:49 PM
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Al Luna (0042) should have never been bumped off or his posts deleted as they were spot on, axel wings are culls no if's or butts, never ever should they be bred,he called it correctly, now why was he booted ? did I miss something ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2008 10:22 PM
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Scott
1265 posts
Nov 21, 2008
10:25 PM
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(Some of the best roller are the birds that don't moult out well if they have been worked hard because all their energy is use in the air and not on the perch making pretty feathers.)
Man thats the truth, to the point where I don't even trust the ones with rich feather for stock no matter how good they are.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2923 posts
Nov 22, 2008
3:51 AM
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Scott Said:
Al Luna (0042) should have never been bumped off or his posts deleted as they were spot on, axel wings are culls no if's or butts, never ever should they be bred,he called it correctly, now why was he booted ? did I miss something ?
My Answer:
Hey Scott, yes you did miss something...I NEVER TOUCHED his posts, HE deleted them because he apparently got upset that I edited the name of this thread to make it more descriptive and interesting.
Modifying thread titles is something I do to MANY THREADS from time to time. On that particular day, if memory serves me correctly, I modified about 20 separate thread titles. I think only he had a problem with that.
Funny though, 0042 indicated he read the posting policy but maybe he forgot this part:
"By posting your comments...you are freely giving...your explicit permission to Roller-Pigeon.Com and its representatives to copy, edit, modify for readability and submit them for publication in this site..."
HE reacted to me doing my job by deleting his OWN posts wherupon, I SUSPENDED, NOT BANNED him for such behavior.
The difference:
Suspended: Still in system, merely cannot post for awhile
Banned: Removed from system never to post again
Consider yourself, up-to-speed.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Windjammer Loft
538 posts
Nov 22, 2008
7:17 AM
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Tony....all I can say is "You have to be in one of the toughist positions their is". I know if it were me, I would ban and suspend alot more guys then you do. Thanks for doing a GREAT job...
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2925 posts
Nov 22, 2008
7:56 AM
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Hey Paul, thanks for understanding my position. I do ask for it by hosting the site, so I can't cry too much...LOL...I dish it out too at times so maybe I deserve what I get?? ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Scott
1267 posts
Nov 22, 2008
9:07 AM
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On topic now- there is much more to breeding than just best to best.
If you decide to stock a bird before it has fully developed into the roll you better be able to get a read on the charactor of the bird, and the only way to do this is by hard flying.
The only time that I will try a bird for stock at the 10- 12 mo mark or less is that it is exceptional in every way and showed no signs of instability,non kitting when it came into the roll,not needing extra feed,or bumping,and I want to back it up with it having strong expression.
As for moving forward if you wait two years plus it can be a slow proces.
Instead I will knock a few rounds off of the bird and then put it back in the air to fully mature (18 mo plus).
I'm killing two birds with one stone here, I am fully prooving out the bird in the air and the stock loft, if all in right,then and only them will the bird make stock.
If you are new I wouldn't even consider stocking a bird unless you spent 3 years or so with them because you won't have a clue what you are stocking or know what I'm talking about above.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2008 9:37 AM
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Velo99
1922 posts
Nov 22, 2008
9:34 AM
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Scott,
Right on there bro. I rememeber you,BMC,Firl,Billings and several others telling me to spend at least five years raising rollers and at least one strain in particular that works for YOU before you can really know what is in the genetic melting pot. After that you have to start pretzel breeding to keep the genes tight and not lose what you have achieved.
Some of these new guys are getting lucky and getting some birds that have the goods. Some of them are looking more for one hit wonders,than a long term program of genetic stability in thier programs.
The roller muse say "Pay me now or pay me later but you will pay."
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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chris
15 posts
Nov 22, 2008
1:12 PM
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Great post Scott and Velo99. you hit it on the mark....
sorry to piss in your fire Paul.... but i have my opinon..I never said Tony didnt do a good job with his
site. Its a nice site and he dose a good job with it.lots of good information..
chris
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katyroller
326 posts
Nov 22, 2008
3:28 PM
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winwardrollers, "I believe that there is alot more to consider besides performance. I look at character, confirmation, feather quality, kitting and performance. In my family I tend to rate performance last because I find that if a bird has the other listed qualities, the performance will be there."
I am talking about feather quality, not appearance. IMHO, missing and or broken flights and tail feathers can/do have a negative effect on roll quality. I do not care how good the performance is if the bird can't or won't kit. I think character should go without saying. Who breeds for a loft of birds that have that "I'm a dumbass" look? IMHO, confirmation probably plays a bigger role in the different families than most believe. The most important part of my post was my last sentence... "In my family I tend to rate performance last because I find that if a bird has the other listed qualities, the performance will be there." :)
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Scott
1269 posts
Nov 22, 2008
3:59 PM
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Doesn't charactor pretty well cover everything mental such as kitting ect. ? Prooving the charactor of the bird is one of the main reason to fly them out hard.
As for feather quality my best tend to break them, the reason being is I don't have the best feather quality, it has no effect what so-ever on roll quality.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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katyroller
327 posts
Nov 22, 2008
7:01 PM
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Scott, I agree character covers the mental qualities of the birds. Question... you say your family don't have the best feather quality. Have they always been that way and what have you done if anything to improve feather quality? I understand you don't feel that feather quality affects the roll. Also is performance at the top of your list when picking breeding stock? Obviously, you have established roll in your family and in order to make it to the stock pen a bird must roll but are there any other traits that are looked at before the roll?
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2008 7:03 PM
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fhtfire
1671 posts
Nov 22, 2008
8:36 PM
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Chris...
It was not your opinion that upset me it was the last line of your post...
"or are you just out for the $$$????"
That my friend was a low blow....I could care less about opinions on this site..trust me I have heard them all...but that was a direct low blow......money has nothing to do with it....And you did not piss in my fire...I just gave my opinion....you comment before that was fine....but not the last line...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Scott
1270 posts
Nov 22, 2008
8:53 PM
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Dwayne, there are a lot of things that I look at, first they have to hammer and do it correctly,but that is only a start point.
From there I'm looking for a strong back and decent expression,without it they are a no go for stock,type pretty much takes care of itself if the roll is right,and with my birds it runs pretty consistant any way.
Beings that feather quality can be an issue the worst aren't used for stock, but it is also something that doesn't play into my mating to a large degree.
far more worse than poor feather is a wealth of feather,rich wealth feather does affect the roll.
Web toe can be an issue also with my birds to a small degree and I don't stock them.
Nor do I stock birds with poor expression regardless of whether they show good charactor,birds that were a major pain but straighten out never make stock either.
My A team is loaded with good spinners but not good stock potential, but my stock potential is also good spinners, and that is when picking off the perch comes in.
Fly a bird hard for a few years and most of the the above will take care of itself, the weak backed birds and poor charactor birds will weed themselves out.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2008 8:58 PM
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katyroller
328 posts
Nov 22, 2008
9:01 PM
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Scott..... Thanks for answering my questions. I agree that too much feather definitely affects the roll.
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brudahpete
198 posts
Nov 22, 2008
9:20 PM
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Ya know, I've read & re-read this thread and have heard all kinds of good and diligent breeders kick this subject around, I've learned a lot. I'm just a back yard flyer with a nice loft full of birds but definitely not a competitor, & I'll tell you what I think on this subject.
I have done kits & I have done loft flys with 60+ birds in the air at once. I breed open loft as I have had great confidence in my family of birds to produce performers. I select the breeders from the sky out of my older birds and really haven't paired them up myself but let them do it. I don't breed junk. Yeah, some people are rolling their eyes & doing arm waves at this but.... I only use proven rollers as stock birds & know that the youngsters take anywhere from 12 to 18 months to show their thing.
I have to hand it to you competitive sorts for your diligence, you guys take the breed to the next level. Those who feel that backyard flyers have less quality in their lofts may have to visit a few. I've never turned anyone away. Very interesting thread.
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