turkey buzzard
84 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:05 AM
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I have a friend that has researched Pedigree's. and spoke with several of the top fliers. This guy has bought the best birds of the Rick Mee strain from the original birds to there off spring. He has also endeavored to purchase some the Higgens birds buying the original birds or offspring etc. He has probably spent in excess of $25,000.00. Does anyone out there think that this will work, pedigree shopping etc. In theory I guess it could I believe that there are to many factors involved for this work. It hasn't worked for the Yankee's or the Cowboy's.
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j .wanless
467 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:29 AM
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hi all
turkey buzzard pedigrees are not worth the paper its written on.here in the uk only 1 or 2 of us use them.i do use them but only on the birds that are good enough to make my stock loft.why waste time on pedigrees on birds that may never make the grade.only birds that have proved themselfes in the air should go in the breeder.too many fanciers waste years on birds that have never proved them selves only on a piece of paper.
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Lipper
33 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:40 AM
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I believe that he is going to breed some very good rollers. The question I have is why would he spend so much to promote someone elses rollers. My personal opinion is that he should have gotten the best birds he could find form 4-5 different breeders. Keeping his ideal in mind, and creating his own line. $25,000.00 should get anyone really close to realizing this goal..
Mike
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maxspin
311 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:44 AM
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Anybody pushing pedigrees is just looking for your money.
If he is willing to spend that kind of money. Go straight to the source. Buy them from Rick or Jerry.
Just my opinion.
Keith Maxwell
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Lipper
34 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:48 AM
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J. Wanless,
I agree with you on pedigrees to a point, it is time consuming to keep pedigrees. I like them though and I also really like written records. Sure you may do alot of writing, but I believe there can be a payoff. I wont take anyones word for what they tell me unless they pull a pedigree or a dirty torn notebook. The only acception maybe a guy that starts grabbing birds off of perches and stars rattling off birds it is out of. I know this guy has a notebook somewhere, but he has everything in his memory. I relly believe you have to know what a bird is bred out of over generations. It will save alot of time figuring out what might and what probably wont work in moving forward. Just my humble opinion.
Mike
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Alohazona
480 posts
Nov 14, 2008
8:54 AM
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It all depends his focus developing the birds.He obviously bought some good stock,but that doesn't buy you the understanding and the experience with them.If he has a knack with pigeons,he did not need to spend such a high amount to obtain good stock.That does not mean that good stock should be sold for a next to nothing discount.A lot of those birds he will never see in the air.
Any breeding endeavor you decide, takes time,money will help to a certain point,but it could have mixed results.With time,focus,a knack,and proper selection,he will do alright.Sounds basically impatient though.....Aloha,Todd
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3757
1016 posts
Nov 14, 2008
9:17 AM
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Turkey Buzzard - It is obvious that he or she went after specifically what they wanted for whatever reason. When you say "will it work" well only that person can tell us because what they want may suffice with the birds they purchased. Pedigree breeding without a person flying the birds hard, culling to a particular standard, having particular goals and milestones is like playing the lotto! Statistically your chances are 6 billion to one that you will not win! It must be noted that not everyone wants the same things and that individual went after what he or she wanted and may be totally satisfied. The price is a non-issue.
As far as the money goes it is relative. To that person 25 thousand may be like $25 as I do not know. Prices and what people pay have no bearing on quality!
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2008 9:18 AM
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j .wanless
468 posts
Nov 14, 2008
9:18 AM
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hi all
lipper i agree with you .everyone needs to keep records.ive been working with my very close family for 20 years now .and apart from the odd lapse i can trace all my birds even further than 20 years by my stock book.i just believe like another post said most people use pedigrees to sell thier birds.by the way mike i enjoyed your posts on the quality post .as quality is my main priority always has + always will.
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turkey buzzard
85 posts
Nov 14, 2008
9:21 AM
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These birds are four/five years old and older and have proven themselves in air and breeding loft. Some of the birds come from Rick Mee's WC team when he placed when he was in Washington. One of the hens has stocked Johnny Smith with good birds as well as others here in Texas the word prepotent comes to mind. I understand the rational but the cost is what floors me. How much does one spend on a bird. Although this individual has never been married and really has know responsibilities, house-car payments it's just hard to imagine what some people will do for birds. Or for that matter any animal.
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Shadow
268 posts
Nov 16, 2008
12:39 AM
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Its dependent on the calibre of the fancier as to how valuable a Pedigree will be,all birds regardless of their ability can produce duffs,yet to write a Pedigree for this type of bird might possibly give it a false sense of value,regarding its exalted lineage where as in a good fanciers loft these birds,are not rated regarding their blood lines,so as for Pedigrees,its the Pedigree of the Fancier that's important not the bird,as for keeping details in your head,this for me is a no no,everything is documented,everything from its planned inception to its eventual demise
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 1:27 AM
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RodSD
38 posts
Nov 16, 2008
12:51 AM
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I think the sky is the pedigree. Or is it the birds performance?
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Longroller
19 posts
Nov 16, 2008
8:12 AM
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Coming from a long distance racing homer background this thought prevails on my property..a pedigree is a record...a record of assets as well as failures. Did they fly the 600 mile..was it on the day or 2nd day..etc. Roller pedigrees need more than just band numbers and color..and "Bred For Stock"..that won't 'fly'.(no pun intended) We need to see on the paper, all the basics as well as when the bird came into the roll, speed, depth, temperment, homing ability, stamina..etc. I honestly need to see more than "30 foot, fast and frequent". That is a great start.....now lets put them in the air if possible and keep records of what we see. Now perhaps we have some idea of what we want to put together for 2009.
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 8:15 AM
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Windjammer Loft
493 posts
Nov 16, 2008
8:32 AM
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Longroller.......I totally agree with you on this one. As they stand now, peds for rollers need much more than a band #,sex and color. As far as Iam concerned you can wipe your butt with them. The homer peds do tell more about what the bird really is. I think it all boils down to "what" an individual "wants". Personell preference.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2309 posts
Nov 16, 2008
8:40 AM
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On my program i do write the band # on the squeeks and who the cock and hen are...
As for pedigree im not much into the only good it will make me is to start my Bbque grill.......lol...
But....diffrent strokes for diffrent folks only my opinion.
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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brudahpete
160 posts
Nov 16, 2008
9:58 AM
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I agree with those that say the pedigree is almost worthless. It is important to know your birds and what qualities each one has. I don't care if you have birds from the Pensom line or Mason line or any other line, those strains produce culls as well. I think that these birds are affected by environment, elevation, differences in housing & training techniques of the handler and a multitude of other factors. A great Pensome bird raised in Oklahoma might not be as great at 5600 feet in Arizona. Just because you have a name attached to a bird doesn't mean you will have immediate success with it.
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Scott
1250 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:19 PM
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It's too bad that he wasted his money like that, that isn't how it works on building stock,can't say I havn't done the same,funny how they had no influace in my birds today, but live and learn.
If he's lucky he will have a couple of good ones out of those to build a line out of, the bulk of them he can use as fosters.
As for pedigrees, my culls carry the same pedigree as my best, pedigrees of my birds means little to anyone but myself, for anyone else it might as well be Chinese.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2008 1:25 PM
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Longroller
21 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:35 PM
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Scott..great post..Keith comes in from a different angle, but all the same goal. Records, and you can call them pedigrees if you wnat, are very necessary as we know. That is what a ped is, and it is good to me, and unless I teach the receipent of the pedigree what it all means, (everything besides band number and color)it will mean absolutely nothing to them, short if they want blood from a champion back several years. The paper won't fly, we know that, but it gives one the record of the blood..that is necessary to raising a good competition family I recently purchased a couple of pair of Cooper birds. I asked the gentleman if he could provide the band numbers of at least the parents..I sent the paper for him to fill out..he went to the records and filled the paper up..I recognized the band numbers 2 generations ago..#1 I know I am closer to the apple tree #2 I got good birds simply because the seller cared enough about his loft to keep excellent records..all said..it is up to me to get the roll out of them.
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j .wanless
473 posts
Nov 16, 2008
1:46 PM
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hi all
scott i agree why people want peds off 1 of my birds i dont know as it will only confuse them.unless they know my birds as well as me .like you said it might as well be in
chinese.
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Scott
1253 posts
Nov 16, 2008
2:09 PM
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For myself I won't write a ped. for someone unless the bird prooves to be of value to them,or I have prooven it myself.
As it's been mentioned all we are looking at is past breeding records, other than that they mean little.
The biggest problem is people putting value on a bird solely due to what is written on a pedigree, normaly because they want them jammed up this or that, boy have I pissed off some ringers in the past due to them not being jammed up this or that, another live and learn lesson LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1254 posts
Nov 16, 2008
2:15 PM
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(hi all
scott i agree why people want peds off 1 of my birds i dont know as it will only confuse them.unless they know my birds as well as me .like you said it might as well be in
chinese.)
Exactly John, also in many cases I think that peds due more harm than good due to people placing value on birds where there is no value , or not putting value on birds due to not jammed up this or that.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Hector Coya
267 posts
Nov 16, 2008
2:37 PM
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Ive had people come over to see my birds,its funny ive flown my kit and people are looking at my pedegrees,i have to tell them to close the book and look up.
I have verry nice pedegrees,like many others do,but ill tell you one thing ,i have birds without pedegrees that produce some super spinners,not all my breeders have pedegrees,and i whould not get rid of any for not having pedergrees.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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Alohazona
482 posts
Nov 16, 2008
9:57 PM
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For me peds. are basically birth certificates.For the folks that have provided me with them,I keep them, and if some body wants one I would be willing to provide one for them.Every thing I breed gets an index card,if a bird died,is transferred,or is culled it is noted on the card.My memory is still very good,and I know every birds story....Aloha,Todd
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black_hawk_down
166 posts
Nov 17, 2008
2:15 PM
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pedigrees are just pedigrees, it doesnt mean anything more or less. even though money can help, people forget that money can't buy success in this hobby.-joe v.
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fhtfire
1648 posts
Nov 17, 2008
3:21 PM
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for that amount of money....My A-team is for sale....LOL!!
Never ever follow the name or a pedigree.....We all fall into that trap....your odds of getting good birds do go up as far as chasing a name...becuase most good fliers have good birds.... it is just a matter of finding what matches you as a fancier. The Pedigree is just a piece of paper...nothing more and nothing less. Until the bird proves itself in the air and the stock loft or just the stock loft....the bird is not worth its weight in feed.
Just remember....just because you have Mee, Higgins, Campbell, Ruby Roller, Decker...and the list goes on...does not mean the birds will perform in your loft....there is more to it then just putting birds in the kit box....but I do say again..your odds go up getting a good strain...but just remember there is no guarantee....and it is SOOOOOO hard to not want to keep birds with a big name or a big pedigree....
I still remember the day when people were telling me....Who the hell is Mort Emami...and What the hell is a RUby Roller......you got rid of Campbell birds...and Masons...and Turners...and Roe....for an "unknown strain"...but once you make up your mind that you are following what works for you....then you will succeed in this sport....trust me...none of my birds answer to Ruby or Mort....but put me in a straight jacket when they start talking to me...lol
rock and ROLL
Paul
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smoke747
1398 posts
Nov 17, 2008
3:23 PM
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As for pedigrees, my culls carry the same pedigree as my best, pedigrees of my birds means little to anyone but myself, for anyone else it might as well be Chinese.
Scott, that is about as real and true a statement that I have ever heard. Mine also,like Smoke.
GOOD ONE!
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
Last Edited by on Nov 17, 2008 3:25 PM
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fhtfire
1649 posts
Nov 17, 2008
5:02 PM
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Keith,
That is why Scott is a Master Flier....Rock and ROLL
Paul
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katyroller
325 posts
Nov 17, 2008
10:09 PM
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It sounds like he got some good proven stock not just a pedigree. The price he paid is STEEP but to each his own. I would suggest he use some fosters and produce as many young as he can before those breeders dry up. $25,000.00 is racing homer kind of money!
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rtwilliams
252 posts
Nov 18, 2008
3:47 AM
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I believe that my best birds were free, except maybe the cost of shipping on a few. Yeah I know who there parents were and what there performance was like. Thanks to the previous owner. Some I have observed the parent in the air, or its brother and sisters.
Beyond that I have just made sure they were from the same family, Billngs/Campbell, and Starley/Destouet.
We will see how we do next year.
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RT Williams
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