quickspin
945 posts
Nov 27, 2008
10:42 AM
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Will you guys use a roller to try out as a breeder in the stock pen that didn't roll at all, but all the siblings were super good and were on the HOT SIDE. To try to add more control to the blood?
FIRST OF ALL I DON'T HAVE THIS BIRD THAT DOES NOT ROLL AT ALL. I READ THIS SOME WHERE ELSE JUST TRYING TO SEE WHAT YOU GUYS THINK.
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SALAS LOFT
I.C.R.C
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2008 11:15 PM
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JMUrbon
628 posts
Nov 27, 2008
10:46 AM
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This topic has been discussed many times in the past and you will get a variety of answers. Personally no. I wont stock unless it earns its way into the stock loft. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2008 10:54 AM
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nicksiders
3186 posts
Nov 27, 2008
10:50 AM
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I am with Joe on this. It may happen than a stiff will produce good solid spinners, but my experience says it will not happen very often and I just don't have the time to risk it in my breeding loft.
A stiff is a cull
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2008 9:07 AM
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3757
1035 posts
Nov 27, 2008
10:53 AM
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Quickspin - I never bought into that at all. All birds in the stock pen should be birds that you have flown. Once you start using non performers you will end up with more and more. I have a friend that has 7 generations of unflown pigeons and he recently sent some to a fellow about 8 months ago who is flying them and guess what? Exactly, the birds are still flying!
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2008 10:53 AM
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katyroller
340 posts
Nov 27, 2008
11:47 AM
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Quickspin, I would have to say a non-performer is a cull. Have I ever stocked a non-performer that produced good performers? Yes, I have. I don't do it anymore because the chances of failure outweigh the chances of success. My family tend to develop late so I don't have the time to sit around wondering if a bird is going to be a performer. I also don't need to take the chances of the stiff trait showing up in later generations. I have enough performance in my family that I don't need to take those gambles.
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CSRA
1725 posts
Nov 27, 2008
12:30 PM
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That question can get rocks thrown at you heres my shot at it lol stock whats needed flown or not there could be numerous reason why u would stock a bird i do not know yours just do not over do it its okay 2 skip a generation with out flying but do not get hook on it i am ducking now lol
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katyroller
342 posts
Nov 27, 2008
12:35 PM
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CSRA, That's funny, Bro! I agree with your advice. Keep your head down and good luck! LOL
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3757
1036 posts
Nov 27, 2008
12:47 PM
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Katy - I may be going to Baytown Texas. How far are you from that location?
Last Edited by on Nov 28, 2008 9:37 AM
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SiDLoVE
331 posts
Nov 27, 2008
12:54 PM
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CSRA, hey bro i see you trying to hide but you dont fit in the box bro.. I got waterballons am gonna launch if u dont get out the box and explain yourself...lmao... Hey the genetics are there and am a mad scientist, it wont hurt if you know its off ur main foundation prepotent birds, try it and if it dont work throw it out the loft.And No dont clean out ur cull kit and use everybird eaither.I honestly wouldnt do it unless am low on fosters and maybe try a round..Wasnt there a bird called the Dummy C%^%% that was a producer and never did anything in the air??
djsid
Last Edited by on Nov 27, 2008 1:04 PM
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quickspin
946 posts
Nov 27, 2008
1:04 PM
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I have not done this but it does make sense to me. A bird that has not roll has too much control over the roll. When all the siblings have roll and been your top best but were a little on the hot side. It will make sense to breed them to a full sibling or 1/2 to add the control.
The only way to really know is to try it. Many of us heard things with out trying them and keep repeating the same things.
Still not saying that I will do it but you never know. Lol
A couple great guys have said this.
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SALAS LOFT
I.C.R.C
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kopetsa
2344 posts
Nov 27, 2008
3:07 PM
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If you think about it quickspin does have a very valid point! Good post!
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Andrew C.
Home of the Yellows
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Velo99
1935 posts
Nov 27, 2008
3:57 PM
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If you have the siblings that are performing properly why breed from a stiff?
Think thru it.
Only under dire circumstances would you want to do that. If the stiff was the last bird of that line in your loft,then, maybe. Thats conditional to me not being able to get a bird from someone I have given them to thats better than the stiff. Remember... garbage in garbage out. ie.. stiff in stiff out.
What you`re doing is breeding to faults together. Genes dont neccessarily divide equally. Dont ever count on it. Sad thing about it is it might work once or maybe twice. Both traits are likely to rise again in the near future. Then it is set in your line and you have managed thru faulty breeding practices to ruin your family of birds. Five years down the tubes.
This is the reason I always try to breed the best birds I have together. Best birds dont include stiffs or freqs.
There are exceptions to this as well. I have four pairs of birds I have on loan. They`ll never see the sky at my house. My friend has bred birds from them I have seem fly. There`s my proof. The imminent demise of a(my)line or a loaner pair would be the only two reasons I would breed unflown birds.
jmho
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
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/()_)__66___()_)\__\
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George R.
1183 posts
Nov 27, 2008
4:04 PM
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I would never Breed from a Bird that dont Spin, Unless I was trying to produce a stud of pigeon that just like to fly like Homers.
Maybe the Color breeders can answer this question better , since most color Birds were bred out of Birds that at one time didnt roll.
Good luck
George
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RodSD
70 posts
Nov 27, 2008
4:47 PM
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I don't mean to be rude, but being a brother or sister of a good bird doesn't necessarily mean that it can be good. It could be dumb or have no control, etc. I think it would be easier in the long run if you stock good birds that is sky tested. Have you ever noticed that in human family some siblings are smarter? Being in the same family is no guarantee that you can possess the same characteristics.
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ROBERT RODRIGUEZ
25 posts
Nov 27, 2008
5:20 PM
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THE BEST PERFORMERS IN THE AIR ARE NOT ALWAYS THE BEST STOCK BIRDS.CONTINUAL MATING TOGETHER OF THE BEST BIRDS IN THE AIR WITHOUT REGARDS TO TYPE OR SIZE WILL BREED AS MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF BIRDS AS THERE ARE STOCK BIRDS..SOMETIMES THE GOOD ROOLERS ARE POOR PRODUCERS AND THE SELDOM PERFORMERS CAN BE GREAT PRODUCERS IF IT WAS AS SIMPLE AS BREEDING BEST PERFORMERS TOGETHER, WE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME OF IT
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Hector Coya
279 posts
Nov 27, 2008
5:29 PM
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I think if a bird comes out of your best pair, and those not roll in a year,that might be a bird someday you might need.
Ive seen many kits fly and ive seen many hot familys that a big % bump leaving the kit or bump landing.
It gets to a point that if you only stock 40 ft fast rollers at some point you can lose some control.
Being from a top pair it can bring in some control.
Bob Scott once told me ,if i get i bird that dont roll after a year,i might stock it.He whould put it on his fastest deepest family and produce real nice deep birds that whouldnt bump leaving or landing.
Control is a big part of breeding rollers,if you over look it at one point youl get overfed bumpers.
Hector Coya=SGVS
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Velo99
1937 posts
Nov 27, 2008
5:46 PM
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Robert,
Thats why you fly them out. To make sure the mating is a choice one. In theory if one were to breed best to best every year and you are breeding from the same family every year, the traits should become the family traits. This should also androgenize the body type to match the performance traits bred into the family.
This seems to be overlooked in a lot of scenarios played out here. How long have you been breeding the birds introduced into the scenario? The longer a breeder breeds his birds,the better he will know them and their performance traits. Depending on the point he is in the development of his line the answers to various scenarios will be different.
jmho
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__48___()_)\__\
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ROBERT RODRIGUEZ
26 posts
Nov 27, 2008
6:02 PM
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VELO99 I ALWAYS FLY EVERYTHING OUT BUT I WOULD BREED OUT OF A BIRD THAT COMES OUT FROM MY TOP PAIR EVEN IF IT NEVER CAME INTO THE ROLL BUT EVERY NESTMATE DID,WHAT HAPPENS IN THE SKY ABOVE YOURE HEAD IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE DISCIPLINARY DICISIONS U MAKE ON THE GROUND..
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Velo99
1938 posts
Nov 27, 2008
8:40 PM
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There it is amigo!
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V99
Straight up,no chaser.
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__48___()_)\__\
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Scott
1288 posts
Nov 28, 2008
8:55 AM
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Sheeze, are you guys frigging kidding me, this is why LaRon has recipe's for rollers.
If you need more to complete the meal take the birds that you are planning to breed such a bird to and use them also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
1038 posts
Nov 28, 2008
9:39 AM
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Scott - Ditto! I forgot to add use Tony Chacheres seasoning!!!
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quickspin
947 posts
Nov 28, 2008
12:36 PM
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This is the almost the same as stocking a bird from the nest but with higher %. As this has too much control over the roll and the other you don't eve have a clue of what it does.
I have none done this we just need things to talk about. Lol
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SALAS LOFT
I.C.R.C
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Scott
1290 posts
Nov 28, 2008
1:26 PM
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And I feel exactly the same about stocking unflown, but if I had to pick my poison it would be useing the unflown since it hasn't prooven itself to be a cull.
Now does that bird in question have too much control or just lacking the roll genes ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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viper
43 posts
Nov 28, 2008
9:19 PM
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Take the short road CULL it yesterday.Blake
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warpspeed
78 posts
Nov 29, 2008
12:25 AM
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guys i am not going to argue your points,but i will say this i once stocked a hen that didnt even flip her sisters and brothers where awesome i still have them. this hen the none flipper has turned out to be one of my best hens she has produced awesome about 90% and her off spring have produced about 90% so you see their is exeptions. i forgot to mention i flew her for 1.5 years waiting for her to come in.
abel
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2008 12:28 AM
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Scott
1291 posts
Nov 29, 2008
12:29 AM
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Able, start breeding only flippers and stiffs , and I will breed only my best, and lets who rings the bell the loudest, personaly I'm not looking for a crap shoot.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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warpspeed
79 posts
Nov 29, 2008
12:46 AM
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it wasnt a crap shoot ask brian the best bird he said hes seen is off that hen a red checker cock and a bird that someone paid me alot for is a grandson dont read me wrong but when u work with something so long u sometimes get that feeling that hen and her sister have about 50% of the birds in my a team in one way or another
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quality
39 posts
Nov 29, 2008
5:39 AM
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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quality
40 posts
Nov 29, 2008
5:41 AM
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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quality
41 posts
Nov 29, 2008
5:41 AM
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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quality
42 posts
Nov 29, 2008
6:14 AM
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Just because a pigeon is a champion in the air, doesn't mean it will ever produce in the stock pen.
A straight flyer, is a roller that shows the highest resistance to the roll. I have straight flyers from both of my families & use them when I need to bring stability back in to the family. They always go back to full siblings, or mother/father, full siblings are best depending on pedigree of parents. If parents are at least 1/2 brother/sister it does not matter.
My best producing hen is a straight flyer, I have never even seen her sit on her tail. Her parents were my best producers, but only raised cocks, she was the only hen from the pair, 17 cocks, 1 hen. I stocked 7 of the cocks, have parted with a couple, but still have 3 in the stock pen. The straight flying hen has been with all 3 & produced champions. Her children have produced champions, her grandchildren have produced champions. Would I part with this hen, not on your life.
Have you ever produced a pigeon that has the perfect spin, going in, going out, with the depth & velocity & quality you are looking for? Her only demise was her frequency. Now what would you breed her to? Obviously something with frequency. I discovered her best mate was a cock, who flipped constantly in the kit. Yes he was an excellant spinner, but liked to flip all the time. My kit always worked harder when he was in it. This cock & hen both proved to be my best producers & yes produced the straight flying hen.
NO never put a FAULT to the breeders, but you need to learn what is & what isn't a fault. I have learned from the greats before me & continually have some of the best birds in the area.
And yes I have unproven birds in the stock pens. They might be unproven in the air, but most definately proven in the stock pens.
Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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Hector Coya
282 posts
Nov 29, 2008
9:13 AM
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Don Luna
I agree with you,thats what the great Bob Scott use to say.Thanks.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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