wishiwon2
100 posts
Dec 02, 2008
11:42 AM
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Hey list, Question for all. Especially those with experience;
I have had a perpetual difficulty getting a team to work at a steady
rate for a full fly time. I have had teams do it and then other
teams/times not.
Do any of you have tips that aid in getting a team to
work for 30 minutes regularly throughout the whole 30 min time? Is it
more in selecting and breeding for a performance trait or is it a
management practice that the birds can be manipulated to perform
steadily for whatever length of time?
If you can predictably do this would you mind sharing how? What you do
and why do you think it works?
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 11:44 AM
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Bill C
132 posts
Dec 02, 2008
12:26 PM
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Hey wish, The most important thing is getting your birds to fly for 25-30 minutes with out DQ. ( disqualifying) If your birds are primmed to the least amount of flying in 20 minutes to 25 minutes that will bring out the best of them if they are in prime condition.
Getting them in a good prime condition takes a few weeks or more. You cant just feed them less and in a few days have them down to 25 minutes and they roll a lot. You have to work at it to see if the birds need fed up to the fly or rest before the fly or both. You can use just about any feed regime ( some prefer just wheat to break them down or others use milo and pellets to digest faster and fly with an empty stomach) this really depends on you, how much you feed and what percentage of calories and protien. in other words gradually bring them down to 25 minutes.
You have to learn what sets your birds off easily. I once fed mostly peas on a hot day and did well on a fly when many other got DQ because it was just so hot the birds did not want to fly that day. Mostly I feed mix and play with it. I use mostly milo to get them flying slower and decrease the time over a week and start feeding Wheat, milo, pellets and mix someitmes and then when you start seeing the change in rolling you have to figure out, what you did to get them at that point and chart it down on records and try and do it again. Variable make a difference, hot, cool, how many days flown, how much to rest them and not to over fly them to many days in a row or you can fly the roll out of them.
I found most of the time my birds did roll much better two days rest after the fly was over. I often had them worn out too much and a few days rest and more mix feed and bamb! only I got to see them. Trail and error is your best teacher. BIll C
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 12:35 PM
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Scott
1299 posts
Dec 02, 2008
12:45 PM
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Jon, it is all of the above , our biggest problem is that our kits are comprised of what we have on the property and we have to build teams with what we have to work with.
When I know that I have the birds and yet things aren't jiving I want to shake up the chemistry, the very first place I'm looking is at the front of the kit and who and what is leading.
Then I start slowly pulling and replacing,you would be surprised what changes like this can do to a team. My W.C. team was the same, I was just struggling with it and wasn't even going to fly the finals 2 weeks out,then I started changing the chemistry by pulling lead birds, the team did a complete turnaround for the finals and gave me a decent fly.
The lead birds that you are looking for are basicly strong and somewhat stiff, you can also cut thier feed back or my favorite is to take away thier booze and cigaretts to get thier attention,or replace them if you have the birds to do so.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 1:00 PM
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J_Star
1790 posts
Dec 02, 2008
1:11 PM
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Find how to get them excited. When you exite them, they will roll like there is no tomorrow.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 1:12 PM
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winwardrollers
47 posts
Dec 02, 2008
7:43 PM
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Jon
This is my guess why your birds only work for the first half of the fly.
You have kits that work good then some that don't... is what you said.
It is in the.. "conditioning of your birds" ..that you don't have quite right. I think you have the birds that will spin... you have your birds to lean or to strong. If to lean.. they don't have the strengh to make the duration.. or if they are to strong they come out of the box wired then they can resist the roll because they are to strong ..or lasy.. and just fly.
I don't think birds that are railed out can't put on a show in the air like birds that are conditioned well.
Scott mentioned moving kit birds around, shake up the chemistry, the birds get sick of the same old, same old all the time. I would guess most... fly the same kit just because they are the ""A-team".. whats the A"-team" .. its the birds that are working well for you at the time wiether they are in the B or C teams.
I think we teach or birds bad habits by not working with them but... just holding them together.
The cocks get strong in the kit and you have to keep an eye on them. I just lost a good young hen that was working hard... her body weight came off.. and she keep working in the same kit.. where the cock in that kit who were just taking it easy. The feed/work rate in that kit was off...if the cocks were working/rolling they would shed the fat and be more like the hen...wish I had the hen back...wish I had the hen Back..that was my mistake not keeping an eye on the hen .. a few days before I noticed her but feed the same and closed the door on the kit box.
You already know what I have been talking about it not your birds it just the trainer...Lol ...lol
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 7:50 PM
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viper
46 posts
Dec 02, 2008
8:24 PM
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Jon I think its the condition of your kit not just feed wise but fly condition and mental condition.I have very little luck doing the same thing I have to change it up tweak something to keep them hitting.The best I ever heard was the more time you can spend with them the better you can do.
If all else fails when you come back through Utah I'll fix you some of my round up decon mixLOL>Blake
Last Edited by on Dec 02, 2008 8:26 PM
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wishiwon2
101 posts
Dec 02, 2008
11:32 PM
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Thks for replies so far ...
Blake, maybe I need some of your magic juice ... the antifreeze I been using just isnt getting it done ... lol.
Jay, I can turn them on and off. Im better at the turn off it seems. I can get most any of mine to roll and do it right. What I have difficulty in doing consistently is getting the whole team to "roll like there is no tomorrow" and do it for 30 minutes or more.
My theory goes like this, and it depends on the kind of birds you have, or how their motor is made (mental state); To get the best spinning, hard, fast and deep, the birds need to be in good physical form. Strong muscled but lean, conditioned to be able to fly about an hour at good height. If you could shave with their keel, they're too thin ... lol. Mentally they need to be just a little stressed. If we over stress them physically or mentally, they dont perform well and will likely land early. If they are under stressed they wont perform well. I dont have nor want birds that need to be physically stressed to perform, I dont think most need to be either. By that I mean pulled way down in condition, thin and light. Or that require treatments of Epsom or wormer to physically reduce them. Like I said, strong but lean. The prep is a small but effective mental twist, they arent actually in any different condition than normal, but you make them think they are.
I am learning about kit composition. It will take time, observation and much experience to become proficient. Brad and Scott both identified some of the things I am seeing but dont fully understand yet. Recognizing team leaders and controling kit chemistry. Both are difficult to define or describe and to identify as well and yet I am coming to believe are some of the most critical components to building and maintaining a solid quality team.
My FF this year is good example; The team I flew best with before and in the prelims is a composition of birds that have been together for 3 years or so. During those 3 years, I have used a couple to breed from, added or removed 1 or 2 because of condition. I also have some real good yearlings flying in my B team. Some of the B teamers are better Q and more active than A teamers. Of course I wanted to have my best on display for FF finals. I removed from A team a few of the lesser Q and less frequent workers, I added some yearlings (07's) in their place. Initially they were really good, but they soon went flat. I believe it was because one or some of the birds I took out from A team were leaders, although not most frequent etc. I didnt recognize the cause of the change in time to change back. Prior to my changes the team naturally liked to break well together in groups 8, 10, 15, after the switch they rolled alot of individual stuff with groups of 5, 8, maybe 10. They would set up great, but just wouldnt commit and break, I think because primarily of change in leadership/chemistry.
I wonder if once you have identified a team that works well together, record who they are, but dont always fly them together to avoid them becoming stale like Brad identified.
Can you create or 'train' a leader within a kit or is that entirely up to the kit to pick their own leader?
And how do you keep your kit chemistry fresh and active?
Still looking for input on keeping a team working for the whole time they're up ...
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J_Star
1793 posts
Dec 03, 2008
5:58 AM
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Jon, what I gather from your response is if you expect your birds to be on full throttle hitting all 8 cylinders all the time, then you will be sadly mistaken.
We condition our birds to get the most out of them when we need them to display their best on a certain day. Sometimes we screw them up trying. If all the rollers display their best all the times, then what is the challenge in this sport? Master the feed and you will master your rollers.
Jay
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winwardrollers
48 posts
Dec 03, 2008
11:24 AM
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Jon
Be careful of any "secret mixes" you get from Blake.
The last guy that was taking notes of Blakes mixes doesn't have birds any more... Lol..lol
Brad winward
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wishiwon2
103 posts
Dec 03, 2008
12:12 PM
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Nah Jay, Im not novice enough to expect that. I realize they're not machines and I dont expect them to work like one either. I do however expect to be able to get a predictable result from them. One of the results I am not predictably getting is for a team to work the whole time they're in the air. I want to learn to train them for a response just like a horse, if I pick up the reins, it should stop or a retriever dog, if I say fetch, it goes and gets whatever. I believe it is possible to be able to do this with rollers.
I am just asking for tips from guys who can do it. There is something in my prime-up that I havent got figured out yet. The combination of physical fitness, feed ration, status within a kit and or genetics all factor into the equation. I dont expect A game all the time every day, but I do expect to be able to produce on game day.
Brad what I know about Blakes' and your 'secret mix' is it has 2 eyes, a beak, feathers and rolls like a dream ... I am a witness ...
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 12:13 PM
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viper
47 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:57 PM
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Jon This is what I look for in kit birds,Strong birds hens that can take a whipping and just keep on comming any cock that can't keep up with a hen like this is culled end of that they have to have stable roll.Kitting is next and is as equal to the first part then I fly the feathers and guts out of them for 2 weeks non kitters smackers and non workers are bait.whats left over the years is my A team.They work pretty good daily but when tuned they can hammer I don't worry about DQ if they don't have the guts to stay up their and work it's gone.Theres 2 04 and 12 05 3 o6 3 07 in this kit o5 was my best year for birds guess what pairs are back together.I think birds have alot to do with it but I think its comes down to you by what you pick how you feed and train.I don't train like Brad or him like me.Keep at it you will find a spot where you will kind of know what they will do and what it takes to get them on point.If that fails drink secret mix thats why the other flyer is no longer with us.Blake
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viper
48 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:08 PM
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One other thing my kit this year flew on one wing never changed just a circle but they where hitting and working.When they would try to change they spread out like geese acted lost til back on one wing circle.Me being all smart I start pulling cock birds till the work rate drops of I put them back in didn't have any subs the work rate went back up so I left it have to see this comming year what happens.
You didn't hear about the 2 headed babys and cyclops I hatched last year?I'm getting them tight note 2 headed one had to be disposed of way to smart:}Blake
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rtwilliams
279 posts
Dec 04, 2008
10:12 PM
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lol
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RT Williams
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gotspin7
2082 posts
Dec 05, 2008
4:46 AM
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Guys JSTAR hit it right on!
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Sal Ortiz
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gotspin7
2083 posts
Dec 05, 2008
4:46 AM
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Viper, WHOA!!...lol
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Sal Ortiz
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