j .wanless
506 posts
Dec 03, 2008
9:10 AM
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hi all
to start with id just like to say in my eyes bill pensom
was probaly the best roller man to be able to put his thoughts down on paper.but one of the best roller flyers that ever lived was bob brown.bob as won more competitions
here than any one.but keeping rollers is a learning practice + we all make mistakes.any one who thinks they have cracked it all are nuts.when bob visited africa they were all flying for depth.they used a clicker system .now i could not understand after all bob had won.he talked the s/africans to ignore the way we flew in the u.k + to stick with the individual way of flying that they were using.my point here is that even the top men can be wrong + in my eyes bob was wrong.ive been to africa 4 or 5 times + got to know all the top roller men over there.i have also seen some of the best quality kits of birds ive ever seen over there.ive said for 5 or 6 years now that it is only a matter of time before one of them wins the w/c.they just missed out this year finishing 2nd +3rd.but if they all had listened to bob they would be still flying single birds for depth.so thank god they did not all listen to what one of the top flyers thats ever lived told themto do.
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Roll Down
36 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:22 PM
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Mr. Wanless: I have never met Bob Brown but when he told the South African fliers to carry on with their way of flying , I think that he was really saying " Do your own thing and if thats what you like, Enjoy!"
I really have to bite my tongue when I read posts that in effect say " If you don't fly in competitions you are nothing." Not everyone wants to compete. Some guys like myself would rather fly rollers for the enjoyment of it, not to brag about who won this or that fly. I don't need to compete, I'm quite happy with my Pensom Rollers and couldn't compete if I wanted to anyway, as there are no competitions or other roller fanciers close to where I live.
I'm sure there are many who feel as I do and like to be "Back Yard Flyers," but as Mr. Brown said, if you like what you are doing ( including those who compete or show them, or breed for color,) DO IT!!
He sounds to me like a wise man.
Just my humble opinion.
George Dring
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brudahpete
270 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:27 PM
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I'm more or less in the same boat Roll Down. I don't compete or even plan on it but I do my best to get the best roll out of what I've got. In a way, I wish Tony had a forum for us back yard guys who don't compete just to keep out of the fights! I do see merit for competing but alas, that day will never come for me.
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j .wanless
511 posts
Dec 03, 2008
2:37 PM
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hi all
george i think you missunderstood my post.i too used to fly really deep pigeons + only now + again got decent breaks.i flew comps for about 5 years .then decided to be like you a back yard flyer for almost 12 years.but decided to go back to comps as you tend to go loft blind.but since i started to fly in comps i have met some of the best people in the world.and that includes quite a few from s/africa.now if they had taken notice of what bob told them we would never of met.i myself are starting to get tired of comps again.and have decided not to fly in a number of flys.
but there is nothing better to see than a kit of top quality birds breaking big.i just wish i could fly them more often.
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true spin
11 posts
Dec 03, 2008
8:36 PM
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hi j.wanless i to have a line of bob brown imported from england in 1983 20 pr jay lucarrelli got them right from bob when he went to visit him in england this line of birds i have have never been crossed with any other birds & jay keeps telling me not to cross them so i guess ill keep em pure so i hope to raise some decent young to fly at least ill keep my fingers crossed thanks
rick
Country Creek Loft
Ontario Canada
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2008 8:37 PM
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winwardrollers
52 posts
Dec 03, 2008
9:16 PM
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John
I Like your post in general.
You wrote.."when bob visited africa they were all flying for depth.they used a clicker system .now i could not understand after all bob had won.he talked the s/africans to ignore the way we flew in the u.k + to stick with the individual way of flying that they were".....
It sound like Bob Brown was humble enough to reconize and give credit to improvement.
I would be interested in your birds...John Wanless you have had your birds since the 70's what have you witness in your rollers over the years?
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 6:23 AM
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Roll Down
37 posts
Dec 03, 2008
10:01 PM
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J. Wanless:
Actually I enjoyed your post and was not referring to you as being one who puts down the "Back Yarders."
It's nice to read about some of the old timers who were responsible for sharing their Birminghams and knowledge with us over here in the New World.
I have to agree that there is nothing better to see than a kit of top quality birds breaking big, either in a comp. or not.
My point was really that not all roller men / women are able ( or wish ) to enter competitions, but they shouldn't be looked down upon should they decide not to, nor should their birds be dismissed lightly until you have seen them fly.
I really hope to meet some of you one day and see some of the good kits that I know are being flown.
Am also looking forward to the day when someone comes up with a way to beat the B.O.P. -- very frustrating to just look at them on their perches instead of where they belong, up in the sky performing.
George
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j .wanless
512 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:00 AM
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hi all
george i never look down on roller men that dont fly comps.infact sometimes i cant blame them for 1 reason or another.2 of the top flyers in england who live next to me dont fly in comps although 1 of them flew this year in the aerc .his name is peter harper he won the w/c in 92.the other 1 has sent a lot of birds to the u.s les bazance he has never flew in comps for years.just because you dont fly in comps dont mean you havnt got good birds.but i noticed that if you dont get out + about you go a little stale.
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J_Star
1797 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:18 AM
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I hear you John. However, in the yester years, Pensom and Bob Brown and others promoted the individual bird performance and finding that special champion. In today’s sport, I believe, it changed a bit in away of promoting team performance and team breaks. Comps and being in comps promotes that. I enjoy collective performance and breaks than individual performance. Although some fanciers have compromised the depth of their flock for frequency to accumulate more points which, I believe, is wrong. I will not be one of them. If the bird doesn't drop at least 20 feet, it could be replaced when I get a better one in due time.
Jay
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j .wanless
513 posts
Dec 04, 2008
5:47 AM
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hi all
jay i hate short rollers + would not keep them just to win comps.you can promote good fast rollers with a decent lenth for comps.all my birds do at least 20 ft.
for me 20 to 30 ft is perfect.a good friend of mine in s/africa johnny conradie e mailed me a few weeks ago.he told me if he never won a competition again in his life he/s not bothered .but he said he is now flying the best rollers he,s ever flown.and for me that sums it up perfect .comps are few + far between.but we keep rollers to fly every day for our own enjoyment.
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winwardrollers
53 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:30 AM
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John
Do you have pictures of your birds tha you can post?
Do you have alot of white in your birds? I have noticed that most birds have alot of white in England or is that the wrong preception that I am getting. Are you going to Africa to judge kits or just visit?
Brad winward
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j .wanless
514 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:55 AM
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hi all
brad i do have photos but i cant get them on here im not the brightest when it comes to pc.s.but to answer your question.eldon chenney + ken firl.will tell you.
when you come to my area which is middlesbrough .thats north east eng.we all have blacks .blues .cheqs.but most have white tails or flights.we have a lot of balds or badges.you will see very little reds or tortoise shells or grizzles.mainly because we have been breeding around the same familys for years.when you travel further down the country you see a bigger variety of colour.
we dont have as many of the self colours that you have. most of the time when i go to s/africa is to visit.last year me + an old friend of mine were there during there clubs presentation nights so we handed out thier trophys .which was a great honour.we presented 1 clubs then had to rush off + do another on the same night.in 2010 i am going back to judge a comp between eng + africa which i am looking forward to.
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Ballrollers
1608 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:07 AM
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Then my hat's off to Bob Brown for his support of individual performance. I just don't understand why we in the hobby feel that it has to be one or the other. I believe we can celebrate the best individual performance as well as the best kit performance.....if we just set things up that way. Nobody has to be left out. Why not include everyone? Thanks for the inforamtion, John.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 7:08 AM
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Alohazona
503 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:22 AM
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Cliff,
Sometimes your shortest posts make the most sense,LOL.There is no reason,I can see,that we cannot have both types of flys.When I first started with rollers,there were only a few good ones to see roll.The reason I say this is because I still have those birds,and THEY STILL ROLL.I have seen them come back from countless overflys,varied predator attacks,and terrible weather conditions.Is there NO PLACE for them,they are,pure birmingham rollers.My vision IS for individual flys and the 11 bird to gain in popularity.I do not for a moment discount the 20 bird,I encourage it!
I will be talking to Eldon today,as he judges my buddys kit,it will be interesting to get his insight...Aloha,Todd
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j .wanless
517 posts
Dec 04, 2008
11:34 AM
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hi all
just been reading through an old article a mate sent me.i would of loved to have been on this comp.its in 1971.ernie stratford was the judge .we used to let the judge fly then .but we had 3 judges judging his birds.it was a y/b comp bob browns son flew beat his dad + scored 124 pts.ernie the judge scored 116 pts .then ernie stratford says there was only ollie harris that could of beat bobs son.but allthough ollie defnatly had the birds he hardly ever won anything.but 3 weeks before he had moved down to devon which is a long drive.so on the 5 th sept ernie + his marker drove a 500 mile round trip to judge ollies y/b kit.ernie says he was surprised that he had settled them. but he says they were brilliant taking the lead with 149 pts. just shows in his old area he won nothing as soon as he moved areas he cracked it.shows its not only about the birds but also the area you live in can have a lot to do with it.
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ezeedad
850 posts
Dec 04, 2008
12:25 PM
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J. Wanless,
You mentioned "johnny conradie e mailed me a few weeks ago.he told me if he never won a competition again in his life he/s not bothered .but he said he is now flying the best rollers he,s ever flown.and for me that sums it up perfect.
This shows that the rules need to be tweaked..to give more points... bigger multipliers... for speed, style and depth... The best spinners should be the winners not just the big breaking kits...
P Gomez
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j .wanless
519 posts
Dec 04, 2008
12:49 PM
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hi all
paul we try + do that here in the u.k by our quality system.as we do not use the w/c system.we have up to 20 kitting points + up to 200 quality points.on average i would say 40 50 quality points are awarded for a good kit .but if we see a really good kit we can use the rest of the points.but like all systems it doesnt seem to be used properly.buti agree with you i hate to see big working kits winning comps against good quality kits.
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winwardrollers
54 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:55 PM
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Paul you posted..."This shows that the rules need to be tweaked..to give more points... bigger multipliers... for speed, style and depth... The best spinners should be the winners not just the big breaking kits".
I just think the 1-2-3 system works well. If you have speed, style and depth... are you not going to get "Bigger Multipliers"? Are you and John saying that the judge is not giving out 1.8 ,1.9's when he should?
I hear this... individual birds stuff... and I wonder why some one would want a great individual when he can have a ....whole kit... of the likes...
Shallow rolling... frequent birds.. will not win out in the long run in kit competition, there is to many good fliers... now days.. with good birds.
Brad winward
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winwardrollers
56 posts
Dec 04, 2008
7:08 PM
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John
I would agree with you that Someone in Africa will win the World Cup ...it seems that.. many... have done well in the past...and they are seriously in to the sport.
Brad winward
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ezeedad
863 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:01 PM
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Brad,
The problem lies both with certain judges.. not all, and with the scoring system which rewards more points for simultaneous performance than it does for speed, style and depth. Look at practically any of the world cup scores and you will see that there is not much difference in the multipliers compsred to the breaks.
I like what I hear about the U.K. system that John described. That sounds like a better way to evaluate quality, which in my mind is what it's all about.
Paul G
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Scott
1320 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:12 PM
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It is all in the judging Paul regardless of the system,including individual,if they judge poor quality the venue doesn't matter.
Don't fool youself these guys are kit flyers as are the guys from South Africa.
BTW- while you have these guys on the hook ask these guys about the hole and how the should twizzle also
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 9:15 PM
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j .wanless
523 posts
Dec 05, 2008
5:19 AM
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hi all
scott you are dead right we are all in the u.k. + s/africa kit flyers.i think what you all dont seem to grasp is the likes of me + deano who have flew top quality birds for nearly 30 years.is that when we put a kit together we can just about have a team that as almost 20 top quality birds in it.now i can hear most of you laughing but im serious.i can name lots of top roller men from all over the world that has been here + seen them.scott i also agree with you about the judge himself if he does not know the diffrence between quality + activety then we/re wasting our time.but for me the w/c was the biggest culprit over the years for poor kits winning major comps.hopefuly we might start + see a diffrence now they have changed that crazy split second farcicle rule.
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gotspin7
2085 posts
Dec 05, 2008
5:45 AM
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John, great post! I have really enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing.
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Sal Ortiz
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kcfirl
523 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:20 AM
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Hi John,
the removal of the half second rule will not change anything in my mind.
It certainly won't ensure judges only judge high quality BR's.
It may have some minimal impact on getting judges to only consider birds going at the same exact instant - something I believe will help those with Barrett derived families the most.
Respectfully,
Ken Firl
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kcfirl
524 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:25 AM
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Hi again John,
the way I saw the 200 point quality assessment used when I was there standing next to George Mason, and the way I have seen it scored in all the scores from the UK I have seen, lead me to believe it has less impact than the Q and D that the WC rules use under the right judge.
I have rarely seen 100 pts awarded under your system, yet I have seen Q + D up to 1.7 x 1.7 = 2.89. When this is applied to even a moderate raw score of 100, the result is 289 incremental points for quality.
What do you think?
Respectfully,
Ken Firl
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deano
155 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:26 AM
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john very interesting posts i hope things do change about the quality brought it up before on the uk site then people just mock you or think your big headed so i thought whats the point? will be going to national meetings to try and change things but dont hold much mate when we find out who the secretary is heard ste shivers as give it up???????
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2008 6:27 AM
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j .wanless
525 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:59 AM
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hi all
ken as it is i would have to agree with you.not sure about the w/c we will have to see.but at least the scores will be respectful.but the quality system for me is never used properly.people dont seem to understand that you can still mark a kit but you dont have to give them quality points.the rules state they have to be a markable roll to score.now like you said if someone is getting quality points for a very average kit .and then say deano flys a brilliant kit + the quality is a diffrence of say 20 or 30 points well thats wrong.lets get back to zero quality until the kits have earned it + then use the 200 points .thats what it was brought in for in the 1st place.im talking about the english system now ken.as i can remember when we brought it in.as for when george judged when you were here.im afraid he was wrong.our system states the 200 points is based on 20 birds at 10 points a bird.yet george scored lots of people with fives ?? like 35 or 45.
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Scott
1326 posts
Dec 05, 2008
9:08 AM
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John, romoving the 1/2 sec rule was a good move, myself I can't gauge it so I didn't pay any attention to it,they either broke together or they didn't.
As for the W/C rules, I think it is a great system, but as long as you have judges scoreing anything and everything and not seperating the good from the bad we will continue getting what we are getting regarless of the judging system.
One problem is getting good qualified quality minded judges to throw thier name in the hat.
As you know we had that ugly girly Dave Mosely lined up last year but then ended up sick.
Personaly I would like to see more judges from out of the US , but those that we have seen havn't been all that frigging great either by a long shot,although Heine did clean it up the last time he judged.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2008 9:10 AM
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j .wanless
527 posts
Dec 05, 2008
9:25 AM
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hi all
the problem with the w/c is theres not a lot of people who can afford to take the amount of time off work that it takes to judge it all. scott i know hanness who is judging the w/c. i,ve never seen him judge .but i/ve seen his birds + he flys some really good birds.he also knows what he wants on the quality side of things.so fingers crossed all we have to worry about now is qualifying lol.
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ezeedad
868 posts
Dec 05, 2008
10:40 AM
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Scott,
You remind me of Napoleon...
Paul G
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Scott
1329 posts
Dec 05, 2008
11:03 AM
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How is that Paul ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
869 posts
Dec 05, 2008
11:15 AM
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I guess it has something to do with the fighting mentality, Scott. I'd be surprised if nobdy else has ever said something similar..
Just sharing an opinion...
Paul G
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Scott
1330 posts
Dec 05, 2008
11:43 AM
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Do you have an example off of this thread Paul ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
875 posts
Dec 05, 2008
11:50 AM
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Of course I do Scott..!! Is it such a part of you that you don't realize it as you are doing it?
"BTW- while you have these guys on the hook ask these guys about the hole and how the should twizzle also"
This is you Scott.. Going on the offensive... and off topic as well!! Kapish..?? Comprende?
Paul G
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Scott
1331 posts
Dec 05, 2008
11:57 AM
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I'm not following you Paul, these are things that you have brought up "several" times,why not get thier opinion on it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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j .wanless
529 posts
Dec 05, 2008
12:05 PM
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hi all
thought i should step in + lighten things up a bit.as this was supposed to be a bit of u.k imfo lol. i have just noticed on the back of my journal.jan russell the better half of graham dexter as got in on the act + decided to write a novel about a roller fancier.obviously because its about rollers its set in the roller mecca middlesbrough.its a humourous + exciting novel + will be available for x mas.
you can order it by email jan on
dexerus2004@yahoo.co.uk
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ezeedad
876 posts
Dec 05, 2008
12:33 PM
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A novel... written by Graham Dexter's wife...or significant other.. Great..!! Thanks for keeping us on topic...
Last response to Scott on this thread.. Like I said Napeleon...!! We Can go back into those issues too... Fine..!! I will stand behind what I said.. not your twisted interpretation...
Paul G
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2070 posts
Dec 05, 2008
3:27 PM
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Good looking out John..
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Ralph
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