COYOTE33
166 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:20 AM
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I was talking to friend of mine the other day who told he had got some Monty Neibel birds from someone who received
some of Monty's stuff after he died.I was excited for him because i knew they were championship quality birds. But then later he told me he was not working with the Neibel birds anymore, I was surprised! He told me that they just were not working for him. I wondered to myself how could champion style birds not work for someone! puzzling!
One thing i did notice, he didnt bad mouth Monty's birds.
so my question is,is it the birds or is it the man? where does the fault lay and who is to blame? whats your opinion!
coyote
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brudahpete
327 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:30 AM
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It's both the birds & the man. It's not you friends fault that they didn't work for him, How long had they been unworked? How far from their original loft were they moved? What different style does your friend train birds with? Lots of factors.
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Alohazona
516 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:31 AM
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Coyote,
Maybe both,I have heard the very same thing about Monty's birds,very mixed results.You have to consider the parents of the birds being flown,like any other family.Did they represent what Monty had in his loft?On the other hand,anyone can screw up a fine batch of pigeons....Aloha,Todd
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Flipmode
312 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:35 AM
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Hey Coyote33 it could've been either or. Those particular birds might have been the duds of the family or your freind was just mis managing them.
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Windjammer Loft
591 posts
Dec 12, 2008
11:15 AM
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It can be a matter of both...
I found out that the birds I started with were not to my liking after I worked with them for 4 yrs., mind you they were good birds but, just didn't work for me here in Ohio.. I switch families and am very happy with what I have now.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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COYOTE33
167 posts
Dec 12, 2008
12:04 PM
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what you guys are saying is so true, but how come the birds always get the bad rap?
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Windjammer Loft
595 posts
Dec 12, 2008
12:09 PM
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Probably cause MOST guys don't want to accept the responsibility or the fact that they don't know how manage the birds correctly. Plain and simple...
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2008 12:09 PM
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fhtfire
1711 posts
Dec 12, 2008
4:29 PM
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HEre it is ...it is 80% the flier and 20% the birds....obviously if the birds are inferior..then you have a hard time starting out...as Scott C would say..you cant make Chicken Soup out of Chicken Shit....LOL...but I truly believe that the fancier is the foundation of a family of birds.....if you find the family that is right for you...not all families are created equal...so.....you can have a championship quality family but they may not be right for you...or you may not have what it takes to take them to the next level...notice all the you's I say...you meaning you the fancier.
One other thing...if you chase the "name" of a family you may as well chase your tail.
I will use a couple of examples here...I had many different families when I started out...read my starting out article in the reading room....anyway...Scott Campbell has some nice birds...championship quality...I have seen them at there best and at there worst...but they did not work for ME....others get them to work...I could not....but I did not chase the name.....Then I got the Mort and RUby birds and at the time...WHO THE HELL IS MORT and WHat the Hell is a Ruby ROller....I actually had people tell me to dump them....because they are not well know...guess what...they worked for me....so the point is...you need to find the family that works not the name of the family.
Second example...I had a fancier call years ago and ask about how to get Some Mort Birds...So I gave him Morts number.....Mort sent him some "good" birds.....and set this person up....this Person was flying Kumro before and said he could not get anything out of them...so he flew the Morts...low and behold I get a NASTY email saying that I was a piece of crap...that I tricked him....that I took kick backs from Mort(money)...mort is a Rag Head Blah Blah Blah...every word was laced with F*$K you etc. Instead of freaking out I simply told him that I DID NOT take kick backs...I make plenty of money....That I fly the very birds that he flys and I could get him a list of some guys that are flying his birds and are happy with them....and second It was rude to call someone a rag head....etc....I then stated...maybe they were not right for you....I never one time recieved an email or phone call asking for help with the birds if there was a problem..maybe with feeding etc...I then said maybe it is not the birds but the fancier...holy crap...then the dude freaked out ...I have been raising pigeons for XYZ years...blah blah...I then said you can have 20 years in a sport with 2 years experience or two years on with 20 years experience....so to make a long story short....Mort offered to give him back his money and for this person to return the birds......but this person had already traded the birds for a different family...my point to this is.....dont bitch unless you turn over every stone and ask another fancier for help in the right direction...or be a man and say...these birds did not work for me...period...I also brought up the point that Kumro birds are pretty damn good to...so maybe it is not the birds.....so....you have to be tactfull and the fancier that will succeed must accept responsibility.....
Chuck Roe before had a very good fly but the birds flew to low for the judge to see good breaks...Chuck is a true fancier.....he said it is my fault.....If I had them set up right they would not be flying to low.....so find what is right for you and if they are not....dont blame the birds...blame yourself...collect yourself and move on until you find your right family.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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gabe454
1390 posts
Dec 12, 2008
4:31 PM
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Its the flier agree with paul on this one!
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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THISROLL
238 posts
Dec 12, 2008
4:51 PM
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I THINK ITS THE MAN..
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155
932 posts
Dec 12, 2008
5:11 PM
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Intesting post,
From what I had heard from older flyers is that a lot of people when they come across good birds its easier for the handler to mess them all up. I think the handler needs to have a lot of patients and know how to feed them and how to get them in the right rolling mood. Anyone can get ahold of good birds but if you don't know what you are doing, you can mess them all up. It just takes patients and some studing of what you are doing.
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EVILLOFT'S
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gabe454
1392 posts
Dec 12, 2008
6:07 PM
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Your absolutely correct 155 you got to know your family of birds.Can't expect to win with big name birds if you don't study them or take the time.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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COYOTE33
168 posts
Dec 12, 2008
7:12 PM
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hey! fhtfire excellent post man. i like a person that tells it like it is. sorry you had to go through that, when you were just trying to help someone in the hobby.
"dont blame the birds ...blame the yourself"
coyote
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Newbie 08
44 posts
Dec 12, 2008
7:19 PM
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I agree 155 patience is the Key. get to know the birds and at the same time let the birds be birds sometimes instead of athlete all the time. pigeons are very smart when pressure stress tention builds up in anything it can be very destructive. Someitmes we can be to hard on a bird because of his family background and or bloodline and never get him to his full capability because we don't understand the bird's personailty.No different then any other animal make the contact and relate to the birds they will know what makes you happy evenually and they are smart enouth to know when you are happy they are under less stress which makes them happy.
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George R.
1242 posts
Dec 12, 2008
7:24 PM
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I cant agree with you Paul
I did everything i could to get those Birds to roll and the only thing that helped a little was if I gave the Birds Epson salt the day before and then they would roll shallow 5 ft max and the roll was crappy wings out and slow.
I switched Familys and I still do the same thing, I put the squeekers in the kit box at 21 days then feed them all they want for a week untill then I start roofing them for a week then realease them.
I fly them daily weather permitting and as they age I adjust the feed according to how long they Fly.
I do the same thing I did with my current Birds that I did when I flew the continentals and I get great results.
That is the reason that I believe that a trainer is only as good as his Stock.
I trained race horses for 15 years and I was stabled next to D Wayne Lukas for 7 of those years and next to Laz Barrera for two years and by Charles whittingham for a year .
I trained my horses basically the same way they trained there Horses . I did on occasion win some Races but you know the reason why they all won the KENTUCKY Derby and several of the biggest Races in the Nation?
Was because they trained horses from Kentucky , I trained horses that were bred in California a HUGE difference.
I still remember D. Wayne Lukas saying " Your only as good as your stock"
And I still believe Him
George
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2008 7:54 PM
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fhtfire
1712 posts
Dec 12, 2008
8:09 PM
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George....read my first paragraph brother...if you have inferior birds from the begining it does not matter who you are....remember..you cant make chicken soup out of chicken shit......you have to have a quality family to have a chance....I agree with you....it can be the birds only if they are crap..but I am talking about a good family not working out....
Not all families are created equal.....if you had a bad family at the begining...that is one thing...and every good family has crap too......What I am saying is we are in control of the feed can and trying to figure them out...but if they never had it ...they never will...
rock and ROLL
Paul
I think if you re-read my first paragraph..I think you will see that we are on the same page...
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George R.
1245 posts
Dec 12, 2008
8:18 PM
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I see it Paul
We are on the same page Paul
good job on the Fall Fly !!!!!
George
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2118 posts
Dec 12, 2008
8:45 PM
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I would agree its both or maybe the trainer. if the birds I got were from someone who was active in the game not just making name out of pedigree .A person not flying his birds and saying all his birds are champion when you know its hard enough just to get one champion...then I have to say maybe its me not the birds..well back then I was starting out so I didn't know better..pedigree don't fly..
. .Now on the other hand I will agree with George because I myself had bought birds way back in 1999 and I follow instructions how to feed them how to breed them .and guess what they still didn't roll no more than 5 feet..they had beautiful colors on them. I had bell necks , blue bars.tortoiseshell.birds that had a body on them make any bird jealous that got next to them....and they were champions and their great grand kids were champion too.. but they wouldn't roll but they can kit but not even their grand kids roll I still have two 1999 and a 2000..and he roll once after 6 yrs..the reason why I kept them because they make good foster and train my new birds when starting out .plus they give the BOP a hard time and I get enjoyment out of that..
so you see sometimes it can be the birds not you..especially when I hear that their are people around who went through the same thing.with the same birds who are more experience than me. .now I tell you one thing it can make anybody quit and I didn't stay with the family for only one year I stood with it for 5 ...wasted 5 yrs. --so that line holds true" you cant make chicken soup out of chicken shit.."...
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Ralph
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2008 10:34 PM
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George R.
1247 posts
Dec 12, 2008
8:49 PM
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Ralph I invested lots of Time and Money i too thought it was Me I phoned the breeder and asked him what to do several times .
I tryed everthing I could because iof the Money and Time I invested.
Then I talked with Norm Reed and realized it wasnt me.
george
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2119 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:02 PM
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I hear you I think we were walking in the same shoes ..I did wasted lots of money but money I can replace ..time I can't..and even today it piss me off..but I look at the positive side I learn from my mistake and I know what a cull is what a tumbler is and pedigrees don't fly.. I didn't know anybody to call but the owner and I have written instructions and they didn't do jack..but I knew deep in my heart I"m a trainer and I know its not me.so I didn't let that make me quit but I tell you that would make anyone quit..and that s bad for the hobby.we suppose encourage not discourage.
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Ralph
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COYOTE33
169 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:13 PM
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now why do we have to make this a continental bashing. this was a general subject to help us as rollerman to understand our hobby. it was a great subject until some brought the negative in. everybody cant roll continental, i realize that, but there are plenty that can, and there are a lot of men that will stand by that. this subject is for guys who dont understand and maybe we can provide some help. you cant help anyone if you are bitter.your bad experience is your bad experience not everybodies.
so its it the man or is it the birds?
coyote
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2121 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:41 PM
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I don't see anyone mention continentals ..I never had continentals.. I think we answer some said the birds some said both some said the man.. now without you noticing Coyote you just bash on the continental by mentioning a name..
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Ralph
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COYOTE33
170 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:52 PM
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i'm not going to bash my on family of birds Ralph and if you look a little closer georgeR did mention continentals. on your profile you did mention you got birds from dick and if you got them in 1999-2000 you got continentals, you can take it off your profile if you like. just do me and others a favor keep it positive. thanks!
coyote
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Hector Coya
308 posts
Dec 12, 2008
9:56 PM
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What ive notice is the beginners usualy dont stick with the first family they start with,nomatter where they get them from.
Usually They dont know what there doing and spent 2 years trying to get them to work,by them theyv seen many other kit and asked many question.
Now they get rid of that family and start with a new one,already having 2 plus years experience from the last family,now this one works better and they think its the birds.
2 years latter they are doing better but not where they want to be,so they get rid of that family becouse theyv seen someonce birds doing real good.
Now they have 2 more years of experience and the birds are doing better,and 4 years later they dont realize it takes that same time with the first family they started with to get where ther at.
Those are what i call Champion chacers,every couple years they get a new family from a new winner thinkingn there getting better rollers,and after a while there still getting the same results.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2122 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:01 PM
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I did notice he did mention it you right...but I am keeping positive you ask a question and I gave a honest answer..the birds I got were pedigree birds ..birds that didn't roll....I mention that so that it proves sometimes it not the owner but the birds you receive and why.----------and why would I take it off my profile I got birds from Dick and Joe M.and that will stay on my profile..
Ralph
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2008 10:21 PM
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George R.
1248 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:01 PM
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Hector
I gave you a Bird from that family how did it do for you ? and I also gave you a Bird or two to fly from those Birds what were the results ?
George
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fhtfire
1713 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:21 PM
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Let me add a little more.....you can get a good family and not get them to work for you....even though they are a good family and they did not work....it is still the flier and not the birds....because if someone can get them to work then that is proof that they have the stuff.....it is a matter of pulling them out of the birds...again..I will use my Scott C. example...very good strong family of rollers...the best quality I have ever seen with my own eyes at Scotts...his quality is what I strive for in my own birds...but I could not get them to do it on a consistant basis...is it the birds...no it was me...and I tried everything that I could....but even though I did some of the same thing with Scotts that I do now and my birds react...it was me that could not pull it out of the birds...so I blame myself not the birds.....is that as clear as mud....find the family that fits you and your style...not just with the feed can..but fits your climate, altitude, region etc etc.....rock and ROLL
paul
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COYOTE33
171 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:32 PM
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you gave me a honest answer ralph! i beleive you said you didnt have continentals, that's not honest thats a lie. i didnt mean to call out the continental haters,but i guess a subject like this would do that. like i said we need to lay blame more on us then rippen somebody else birds and for the benefit of new comers this is something they have to learn so they want become haters to. now you haters would do the hobby good if you are first honest with yourself because it might be you.
coyote
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COYOTE33
172 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:37 PM
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Paul again i well say thank you for your imput very valuable, i appreciate your honesty. this kind of honesty does our hobby well.
coyote
rock and roll
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2123 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:44 PM
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You want to help the newbie out Coyote tell them not to buy pedigree birds... pedigrees that say they are all champions that s how you going to help them out.. my birds were no good period and if yours were more power to you..but I have read many post with alot of guys saying the same thing..so I know it can't be me..plus these guys are competition guys that have a reputation they know what they doing.. in case someone says I don't or because I don't compete..
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Ralph
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2008 10:53 PM
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George R.
1250 posts
Dec 12, 2008
10:48 PM
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Ralph I guess between me and you we couldnt train a
Dog to drink water LOL
Ralph maybe the birds I got were nest mates to yours LOL
george
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RO
197 posts
Dec 13, 2008
12:09 AM
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LMAO at George..lol you crazy..lol
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Ro
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gotspin7
2092 posts
Dec 13, 2008
3:55 AM
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George, LOL!
Coyote, I do not think someone is hating if they are sharing a experience with a particular family... So what should they say go buy them they are great? I have met a whole lot of people stating the same and I am thank full that way I did not waste my time as welll.
I agree with the firefigther...lol.. I learned this a long time ago and I will share it with you guys...lol.. No matter how you mold it, shape it, shine it, talk to it, Ok sign to it, a pile of SH33, is a pile of SH33!!....lol... No mattter your experience, most of it is in the quality of stock you have, with good stock even a poor fool could roll them, to some degree...LOL...
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Sal Ortiz
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2124 posts
Dec 13, 2008
6:10 AM
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you gave me a honest answer ralph! i beleive you said you didnt have continentals, that's not honest thats a lie. i didnt mean to call out the continental haters,but i guess a subject like this would do that. like i said we need to lay blame more on us then rippen somebody else birds and for the benefit of new comers this is something they have to learn so they want become haters to. now you haters would do the hobby good if you are first honest with yourself because it might be you.
coyote
I said I didn't have Continentals and I stand by that ,
where you get the balls to sit there and call me a liar because that is what you doing by saying I lie
the last time I check the ad that I order these birds from said Black Country Rollers it didn't says Continentals ..want to know whats a lie this whole post is made up of a lie you never post here that much 172 times and the time you come out is when someone says something negative about the birds you have. a couple of post back you were arguing with Scott because he said something you didn't like about the Continentals.a couple of post back you argue with George because he said the Continentals didn't work out for him..now all of sudden you want to help out the newbie . you know damn real this post is about you going after George or the Continental haters .if you don't like the response you get from your post than don't post.everybody has the right to their opinion just because your birds turn out good does that mean everybody that got these rollers they have to be good too ..I seen you defend everything somebody says about them rollers but you never said anything about the pedigrees having all them champions in every corner you know why because the proof is on paper .
hey George do you feel me on this or is it just me..
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Ralph
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George R.
1252 posts
Dec 13, 2008
9:15 AM
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I feel what your saying Ralph, I am always trying to get new blood into our Hobby.
I will share my expierences with them regardless if it was good or bad.
George
The rookie
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COYOTE33
173 posts
Dec 13, 2008
9:16 AM
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now that you got all of that out can we get back to the subject. you might learn something!
coyote
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George R.
1254 posts
Dec 13, 2008
9:36 AM
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Coyote I would only put blame on the person if the trainer did not fly the Birds daily or spent most of the waking hours drunk or stoned .
there are alot of people that wont dedicate them selves to training Pigeons . they would rather sleep in on days off from work, or go to the Bar after work instead of rushing Home to get a Kit out before dark.
Then there are those that dont have the time due to family obligations or physical disabiltys, these are the people who I respect just for having some pigeons. as it is still somewhat time consuming.
George
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2128 posts
Dec 13, 2008
10:12 AM
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Not all families are created equal.....if you had a bad family at the begining...that is one thing...and every good family has crap too......What I am saying is we are in control of the feed can and trying to figure them out...but if they never had it ...they never will...
rock and ROLL
Words written with a whole lot of truth in it!
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Ralph
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2008 12:06 PM
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Velo99
1981 posts
Dec 13, 2008
10:18 AM
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Over the years I heard Monty birds are notoriusly hard to work with. I heard from Heine that Monte had smallish birds he half starved to get them to work. Monty was a ruthless trainer and his birds showed it. They arent for beginners or intermediate fanciers. Neibles are for experts.
I am sure there are exceptions.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__48___()_)\__\
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2129 posts
Dec 13, 2008
10:24 AM
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That is true I read the same Velo99 ,I heard some folks that saw Monty's birds would say the birds look crappy no meat on them bones but they can roll boy they can roll....anything that shows a weakness in its constitution was cull...
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Ralph
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COYOTE33
174 posts
Dec 13, 2008
10:33 AM
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Thanks GeorgeR good point. but what im finding with this subject on the brids or the man is there is no real communication. in other words when a man goes to purchase rollers they and the person that sales the birds should know what type of family they are dealing with. for example and this is not a knock on you, the continentals are not a comp type family, to me they are more built for individual type of flying. but people have to know these types of things so they want get down on anybodies birds not just these. when my friend told me about the monty birds and he couldnt do anything with them, i could of said "man whats wrong with you those are birds are champions" but i didnt trash him, i just fig monty had his hand print on those birds. so just like others have said sometimes its the man and not the birds or the birds are not for him. but thanks George this subject was not for you personally. I got birds from a friend sometime ago i couldnt fly them, but i know some guys that have them and they are rolling their a--off. so it just depends
lets just help the new guys so they want spend a lot of time and money to know what they want out of a family of birds. but leave the trashing out it will not help the hobby.
coyote
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2008 10:38 AM
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George R.
1255 posts
Dec 13, 2008
11:46 AM
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Peace Coyote ... I got it
George
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