quality
80 posts
Dec 31, 2008
6:12 AM
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I always go backward forward.
That is to say, I breed back to a certain bloodline, trying to get as close as possible. When I see webbed feet, & or crests in the cheeks I'm getting there & have to go out to a 3rd or 4th cousin. Then back again.
I also cross my 2 familys for out crosses, so I will have them when I need them. Having both bloodlines in them, I can use them for both families.
Colors can be used when familys are real close. I never put 2 birds that look the same together when I know they will be throwing webbed feet. Or out crossing I usually put 2 birds that look the same together. Color is something we can see & know they are in the same gene pool for that trait.
Individual nest boxes have been used to insure accuracy of pedigrees.
A straight flying sibling is considered an outcross.
Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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Scott
1384 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:00 AM
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Don, web feet is recessive, meaning that if you put two together that carry the gene they will throw a percentage of web toe even if not related.
Many think that it is due to inbreeding because they see it popping up so much because natually they all are carrying the gene.
As for myself, I tend to keep my birds moving into a foward type direction stacking my key birds behind the up and coming and allways on the look out for my "new" foundation.
My "new" foundation cock is now at hand he is 4 generations down from my last three key pigeons,and he is a better producer of rock solid quality birds,he is where it all came together.
In five more years he will be stacked behind every bird in the loft and I will be looking for my next couple of key pigeons to start again.
This keeps the line tight,other wise they spread out on you, myself I prefere linebreeding over inbreeding, but if you look at the peds they look very tight due to all you see is the same pigeons and siblings.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Sunflower
95 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:08 AM
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Scott, Good Morning, Sounds like we adhere to the same linebreeding pholosophy. My original foundation bird was a Red Bar Badge hen. I bred her on a number of closely related cocks and she is 3 to 6 generations back on virtually every bird in my loft. In 2001, I found my next foundation bird and repeated the process. I think I have found my next bird which is a Blue Bar Badge Cock. Hopefully by the end of this year I will know if he is the one.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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winwardrollers
69 posts
Dec 31, 2008
11:00 AM
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Don
I have been breeding... "backward forward"... since 1995 with the rollers. It's a way to hang on to the gene pool and set your genes into the family you are creating. Progess is slow but each year I have noticed progess.. but have come to the conclusion if I want to improve the family.... the Old have to be left behind and work with New.
Looking back I am satisfied with hanging on the Old Line of birds by inbreeding it gave me a good base to work with. I made improvement to the old that took.. years of selection.
Now I am guessing linebreeding rather then inbreeding will help improve this family the most now.
The birds I am getting are far superior than what I started with... that is my only gauge of my breeding program.
The problem I have is some of the falts of the old keep coming back.. and now if I work with the Young improved breeders the falts should be minimized even more.
There is a need for both inbreeding and linebreeding from the experiance I have gained... I problem with roller improvement and this hobby... is that the ..New guys starts... cross breeding..then on top of cross breed.. color breeding..show breeding.. and then passes birds around to others. lol
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Dec 31, 2008 4:04 PM
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Sunflower
97 posts
Dec 31, 2008
11:16 AM
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Brad, I think a lot of new guys in the hobby get side tracked with out crosses, color, showing etc. I suggest it is probably because they are not sure what their goals and objectives are for their birds. They quickly get overwhelmed, some of them have a mentor to use as a sounding board. Others are just trying to find their way on their own. That is one of the great values of this forum!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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winwardrollers
70 posts
Dec 31, 2008
5:39 PM
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Sunflower
How is that Indigo.. helping you breeding program ..to stick with the topic.
You may want to change your post to say...Keep em Pretty..LOL
B winward
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Sunflower
104 posts
Dec 31, 2008
6:42 PM
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Actually it is working out quite well. Spin very well.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Sunflower
105 posts
Dec 31, 2008
9:05 PM
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Brad,
Not sure if your question was a serious one or just an attempt at humor. Will answer it as if it was a serious question. The indigo that I brought in was not a total outcross. A friend who breeds out of my bloodline brought an Andalusian hen back from a trip up in Iowa. He bred the bird to a cock that I had given him and flew the offspring. He then took one of the progeny and bred it back to the father and also another cock that I had given him. I picked one of these young birds out of the air and bred it to one of my cocks. Got 5 youngsters from this pairing, 1 was excellent in the air, the rest were average to below average. I then took the excellent bird and bred it to two of my hens. Selected the best from this breeding and am now breeding from 2 pair of half brothers/half sisters. This keeps this genepool isolated from the rest of my family since I breed only in individual pens. This program might not work if you breed in an open loft. Any way to answer your question, this is how it is working in my program.
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Keep em Spinning and pretty
Joe
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winwardrollers
71 posts
Jan 01, 2009
12:03 AM
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Joe
I would be interested in going into the future... two or three generations from now and see if your still impressed with your Indigo line of birds.... If the Indigo birds are as good as a solid Pensom base bird. Hybreed vigor seem to work good for a generation then reality takes over as you move down two or three generations.
good luck
b winward
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Sunflower
113 posts
Jan 01, 2009
12:07 AM
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I will also Brad. I understand what you are saying. By my calculations, I am 4 generations in now. Be interesting to see what comes out of the 2 pair of 4th generation that I have bred up now. I'll keep you posted.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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DeepSpinLofts
1137 posts
Jan 01, 2009
12:49 AM
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1/1/2009 Happy New Years
BREEDING CHAMPION ROLLERS:
Step 1: Start with the best cock bird you can get
Step 2: Pair it with a good hen (preferably same family)
Step 3: Produce many hens from this pair and fly them out
Step 4: Pick the best hen and pair it back to its father
Step 5: Repeat step 3-4-5
NOTE: Understand what a good Birmingham Roller is. Read as much data and archived notes regarding successful breeding programs.. It would be a good idea to invest in your own personal resource library of roller pigeon doctrines, analytic genetic research and food/health books.
Marcus
"DEEP" Spin Lofts
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gotspin7
2169 posts
Jan 01, 2009
7:30 AM
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I will chime in with Campbell on this one!
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
115 posts
Jan 01, 2009
7:37 AM
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Good Morning Sal. Hope I didn't tick you off the other night, I just needed to vent a little. I certainly didn't mean to imply you and other top breeders breed for frequency over quality. Scott and I had a great conversation yesterday on the phone. We pretty much agreed on breeding programs, judging, etc. As I said above I agree 100% with Scott on breeding program to move forward.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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gotspin7
2172 posts
Jan 01, 2009
7:41 AM
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Joe, I am not thin skinned bro, I am a mortgage lender...LOL.. We are good, hey how else will be able to find out if we are on the same page or not. Got to ask the questions...lol. Hey Happy New Year Joe. If you have time like in a couple of hours, call me at 479-221-4249.
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Sal Ortiz
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Sunflower
116 posts
Jan 01, 2009
7:45 AM
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Will do, around noon okay?
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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quality
81 posts
Jan 01, 2009
7:52 AM
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My Bob Brown line all go back to 1 cock, 2905/72 black grizzle, singles champion in England, not sure what year? 5 different families within the family.
My Bill Barrett line goes back to the Dunn Badge cock & the White Self hen.
All blood lines throughs booted stuff, through certain familys. Which I have now crossed.
In 15 years I have never brought any other blood in. Don't need to. Just have to keep the stability in tact.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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winwardrollers
72 posts
Jan 01, 2009
9:04 AM
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Don
Who flies your family of rollers in the World Cup or NBRC competitions?
Do you have a hard time with the Barretts wanting to fly high and long? I have had a.. few good Barretts but when they get in good shape the Barrets are always the last birds down, but they do have a good roll.
I fault the Barrett Bird that I started with, the wing on that bird could hold up a small plane. Have worked on breeding the wing smaller but have got the point that I'm not as interested in that project any more.
Brad winward
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quality
83 posts
Jan 01, 2009
9:51 AM
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Some of the South Africans. Most in this area who get to the final fly are flying the same blooded birds. Ross Vito has pure Barrett's.
Brad the English birds have to be kept real hungry.
All birds will sky out once or twice a year & lets them look around.
I think it's all about the conditions they are flying in.
My birds stay pretty low, but John up the road 50 miles or so. His birds fly up to 1,000 ft or so or sky right out. Same blood lines.
If I start over feeding they will fly higher & longer, up to a couple of hours.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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