rollingline33
165 posts
Jan 05, 2009
9:28 AM
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last nite i was thinking on how much big bucks some of us have paid for those big name birds or their KIDS and i wont mention any names on the birds or flyers!! but the question is how is it that we are willing or for some of use that have done it, pay the big bucks for birds that are breed in open loft??? the only thing or excuse or all of our reason are they are all so tight or they are all so so so so close togther!! and we even have PEDS for the bird!! not knowing who the real parents are with 20 birds in the loft lol... but we know that every bird is so so difrent no bird is alike!! so how is it that the only excuse that is given is well all of the birds are close ???? so what is our excuse for wanting thesse birds so bad that we have been spending big bucks for if they come from open lofts??? specially here in cali im so so guilty of buying!!
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spinningdemon
159 posts
Jan 05, 2009
10:10 AM
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Sometimes it is just the nostalgia aspect of having birds from so or so. I breed my birds in indavidual pens just because I want to be certain of the parents. I do know that some of the big name guys breed open loft. And the fact that there family is so close breed that it dosent matter much to them. I have found pedigree errors based off of colors listed though from open loft type breeding.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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cv rollers
219 posts
Jan 05, 2009
10:46 AM
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very interesting ,sounds like it works for u ,ur correct they do look happier when they r free to roam and fly..
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fhtfire
1741 posts
Jan 05, 2009
10:48 AM
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I want to hear what other people think or what they have noticed....I want fact...not hear say...I too have saw what David as seen with sex linked matings etc..and I am like..how the hell did they get that color....But you know...some may not select like I do...and not cull SUper dominant cocks...I have culled good spinners just because they are tooo cocky...and I did not want a loft full of misfits...trying to get a piece of ass and not working as a team.....It may be just the way I select and that I am real careful about keeping my open loft...pair friendly...and some of the things I do..to keep cocks uninterested...etc....I am not saying this is across the board...I run a real tight ship and I am only breeding out of 10 pairs...I have seen some of my cocks all perched together in a row...you dont see that in other birds....they will fight..I think most of all..it is cock selection...because most top fliers cant stand a cocky cock in the air...if they are fed down and wing slapping and chasing hens when they land and not going in to the kit box..even when hungry..because they want to stay on the loft roof and strut...guess what..that is dead pigeon walking..his days are numbered...I guess because Scott calls me the gay Pirate.....I like non dominant cocks...LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Square
637 posts
Jan 05, 2009
10:52 AM
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I think that if you are selling a name or a special strain. You should be able to validate the parents. But for me I guess Ive got on the "It dosent matter as they are really close train". But that is my personal system dosent mean that I dont care but I started lookin at what I want to accomplish and that is flying three kits of my bird's. I Dont sell rollers on the regular, However if someone really likes a bird they can pick it outta the air. I now have two open lofts with two seprate families and 8 pair in each. Its just one of thase things that boils down to what ones personal desire is, I dont have the time any more to breed indivual, it's just to hard on the people that caretake my loft when im unavilible. Now if my family starts to go down hill you bet I will start the indivual system in a heartbeat, but for now I need the number's the only thin that matters is the birds were developed by me and came outta my loft.. That's That. I will be testing my system this year in comp and hopefully it all works out... good luck to all flyin in "09".
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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J_Star
1825 posts
Jan 05, 2009
11:46 AM
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Sex linked mating and the colors of the youngsters are expected to be one way and all of sudden something else pops up and we think it is hanky banky!! Interesting how we forget that rollers are nothing more than aggregate to their ancestry. Which means, is that in their family history makeup and their ancestors, that color or trait was found and they reemerge every now and then which gives the impression that they are illegitimate youngsters.
Jay
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BA Rollers
158 posts
Jan 05, 2009
11:46 AM
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I open loft mine. All three families in three different open lofts. They are all so closely related it doesn't matter to me if there was something wrong with the stew. In fact they are of such similar color I'd never know anyway. I don't sell my rollers so I don't have to worry about the legitamacy of the birds compared to a roller hustler who's image depends on the numbers on the piece of paper.
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Hifly11
39 posts
Jan 05, 2009
1:37 PM
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Last year I bred my rollers in an open loft and I watched as a hen mated with her mate and when he got off another got on and when he got off a third cock got on. Now I had never seen that before and when she laid her eggs I really could not be confident who the father was.
When you are trying to breed for performance and you get a good bird or a bad bird you want to know who the parents are. In an open loft you just can't be sure.
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fhtfire
1742 posts
Jan 05, 2009
5:09 PM
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Hilfy...that hen is a little slut...cull her...LOL...Kidding..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Spin City USA
165 posts
Jan 05, 2009
7:10 PM
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Paul I think a lot of what you posted is true especially about not using cocky cocks. I have 4 older cocks and I switch mates for them a lot. What surprises me is when I find out I have put a young cock in with the old cock. I do like the cocks to have a masculine look, but they dont get that look when they are in flying shape. If we breed from a tight pool we will all end up with what we want in the end.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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quickspin
967 posts
Jan 05, 2009
7:32 PM
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When I was breeding open loft I had more problems than now in individual. But there are good open lofts that have very good room to breed in there own compartment and have room to fly. This I think are excellent. Also not having too many pairs in a open loft will help a lot.
In a Open loft sure was a lot more easier to take care off and they seem happier. It's also fun to see them flying around the loft.
Some of the problems I had with open loft. Just me.
*broken eggs
*fighting
*squeakers dead from other birds picking on there head.
*Not 100% sure who was the father.
*Less fertility on eggs.
*Dead Squeakers on the floor.
*easier to clean
*easier to feed and water all one time and done.
Individual breeding
*Not enough room for them to fly.
*100% who are the parents.
* Higher Fertility rate.
* a lot faster to bred they get to it quick. And again on there 2nd round very fast.
* a pain to clean and to water every compartment.
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SALAS LOFT
I.C.R.C
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Scott
1405 posts
Jan 05, 2009
8:23 PM
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My set up is all ind. 32wd X 22" deep & 18" ht. For myself I refuse to lock down the best of my family into these individule compartments any longer.
Plus I want my best to get plenty of excercise, sun light & baths, also health and productivity stays at its optimum .
But nor would I settle for standard nest boxes, with the proper set up with plenty of room cross topping stays at a complete minimum, plus I never let ouside birds into my main loft.
For those that are all that concerned to proove pedigree on unprooven youngsters I say beware of such breeders to begin with.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 8:25 PM
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Electric-man
2236 posts
Jan 05, 2009
10:16 PM
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I built a 6 box ind breeding cage last fall. They are 24"x30"x18", plenty of room. I filled them with 6 prs about a month ago from my main breeders. They aren't doing anything, they seem depressed. I put my fosters together 5 days ago and they are paired up and making nest like theres not a minute to spare. No doubt that they are way more happier in the open to move around at will.
I will give it another month, and if things don't change, I'm gonna switch the main breeders to the open loft.
I spent most of the last breeding season working nights and since I don't sleep much, that gave me the days free to hang out in the yard with my birds. Although I saw a few cocks try, i never saw a hen allow herself to be jumped by another cock. Not saying it doesn;t happen, but I agree with Paul, that once their paired, I don't see that its likely to be a problem, in my loft. One of the reasons that I think that I am seeing this idea work for me is the fact that I have at least twice the # of nesting boxes as pairs and many more perches than needed. I only put about 6 prs in a 8'x8' loft also.
We will see if my theory holds true this season, but as of now, I am comfortable with where I'm at in my thinking. Happy birds are healthy birds and will be more productive! JMO
Maybe when the weather warms and the daylight gets longer, I will see different results in the ind cages, but so far, they aren't working as well for me!
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Val
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 10:17 PM
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spinningdemon
162 posts
Jan 06, 2009
5:33 AM
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I have not breed from overly agressive cock birds with my Oriental rollers and they are now a much easier family of birds to manage. But if you do not breed the Orientals in indavidual boxs they jump all over the place. I have found that with my Birminghams they tend to stay with their mate but if an old pair is in the same loft as thier prior mate they will switch and who knows who the daddy is. What Paul discribes is what I do with my Birminghams. But I am in the process of building more indavidual box's and will breed all indaviduals next year with them as well.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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fhtfire
1743 posts
Jan 06, 2009
12:28 PM
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Quickspin,
I have yet to have broken eggs in 4 years of open loft...never had one.....and my numbers have went up in open lofts for number of fertile eggs.....My young birds are alot healthier...and I have only lost one pin feather bird in 4 years...of open loft....and it was from the cold and it being a runt.....I have NEVER lost a squeeker on the floor...actually the squeeks all stay together and all the cocks feed all the squeeks even if it is not there own young....I never have fighting at all....no nest box take overs nothing..and my boxes are right next to each other....but I do have small entrances to the boxes..that may help....and again...I think has alot to do with cocky cocks..or selection to the stock loft....I even switch cocks to different boxes and no fighting really....
When I did individual....I had sick breeders....they were very lethargic....and I had so many singles...I was going to pull my hair out....and moving the squeeks was a hassle....I had to leave them with the parents longer...my squeeks are on the floor in open loft when they barley have feathers in there wing pits.....and they go to the kit boxes and take to the wing alot faster in open....
My feeling is that the only good thing about individuals is 100% for sure who the parents are....and to be honest....Pedigrees dont fly and they dont roll...so....I could care less if 1 out of 50 is an I dont know...because I dont pick for the stock loft based on who the parents are....and I dont mate based on who the parents are....I mate based on gut instinct...I DONT do father daughter matings period....so to be honest....Tony would be the type of fancier that would breed from individuals..because he sells birds and needs to make sure the parents are legite....
I will be honest....Open loft is the only way to go...if you breed a tight ship without a million pairs of birds....they birds are happier...not losing one breeder or squeek to sickness in 4 1/2 years is pretty damn good and being able to breed from Jan-Oct with breeders not being stressed at all....Priceless..
One more thing....about wanting 100% accuracy on the parents....If a pull a bird for stock...and it is good enough and is from my breeders....I dont care who it is from..it is going in the Stock loft and being bred from period....I have no problem putting a question mark and a Ped piece of paper...but I love putting up 800 points on a scoresheet piece of paper....because when the smoke clears...nobody gives a shit what came out of what..that is for good conversation..what they do care about is what the bird is doing in the air or producing..
Rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2009 12:31 PM
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nicksiders
3206 posts
Jan 06, 2009
12:58 PM
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Make sure your pairs have been consimated and it will be rare that a hen will allow a cock other than her mate to tread her. I shut them up in individual breeding boxes until the first egg is laid and then I open them up to the open loft. They are less stressed. They nest box has an opening of about 4 inches and there is no fighting; the broken eggs; no pecked squabs going on. I also have individual cages in a stack; wheel mounted. That has not been a productive system for me. That means the birds are not happy and suffer in such an arrangement cuasing them not to be productive.
Paul and I have the same experience with open lofts. I remember a time we were talking when I lived in CA and Paul and I agreed; the rare times that a hen is tread by an cock that is not her mate.....so what. The loft has only your breeding stock in it anyway, so who gives a shit. You should also know what you will get from a pairing anyway and you should know when something pops up that should not have come from that pairing. Next year I know that everything I will be producing is from one family. I can't wait until I have enough and they are mature enough to compete. I wanna be like the big guys and score several hundred points, too(LOL) I want to be just like Aubrey Thibodeaux when I grow up without the accent.
Nick
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Square
638 posts
Jan 06, 2009
12:59 PM
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I see good in all points.. BA you kinda look at it like I do,, If you have the time and resources then breed indivual,, but for people like me I just like the fact they can clap around a and choose alot of free will..another good point made is that the open loft has to be like a community that gets along,, that its a great thing... open loft isnt always as easy as trowing them togeather,,,It's gotta kinda click from the gettieup. The problems ive had is trying to introduce another pair if the community is already established. For me it's just about rolling some birds.. Ill let them speak for themselves and that way I dont have to be a master at band numbers and pedegrees,, just lettin the birds do what they do....
Square.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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maxspin
332 posts
Jan 06, 2009
1:04 PM
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Paul,
I do much the same as you do. I have (2) breeder lofts so I keep the families separate. I let out half the loft at a time to eat and drink, then lock them back up until they have laid the first set of eggs. After that I open the doors and give them free run. I too have only made (1) notation that the colors did not match up to what they should be. I noticed it after they were already in the kitbox, and still wonder if it was a record keeping error on cross breeding.
I am very busy with my kids, and am not willing to make feeding and watering a chore.
P.S.
Paul I agree with you on the worth of a pedigree. I would much rather get a piece of paper with the bird that describes how it flew. Depth, style, frequency, kit leader, how fast it returns to the kit.
What were its best attributes, and where were its weaknesses.
If I purchased 3 pair of birds from a breeder with that information I could make much better pairing decisions that I could with just pedigrees.
Keith Maxwell
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winwardrollers
83 posts
Jan 06, 2009
10:13 PM
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Rob..Rollingline
I breed in a open Loft but that loft is broken up into... three sections. Four breeding boxes, then six boxes, then four or five boxes in the last section.
I put old breeders in the boxes first which are pretty committed breeders.
Then I fill the rest of the boxes with birds that have characteristic that would tell me if the Mating wasn't legitamate...coloring...patterns..size..head shapes...toe nail coloring..etc.
A new pair in the sections is the only pair that I watch any more. I have found that if I pre-mate them before entering them with the other pair there is very little disturbance in that breeding section.
When the young have a one inch tail.. I set the young on the ground and make the breeders feed the young on the ground this is about the time that they are going to mate and lay eggs again so now when they are on the ground to mate up the young mob them.
The small open loft sections are the way to go. I would not pen birds up in small cages and breed them.
Brad Winward
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roller heaven
43 posts
Jan 07, 2009
4:51 AM
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I open loft breed all my rollers and never have ant babys pecked or eggs broken.I would rather breed that way less work and less stress on the birds.
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winwardrollers
84 posts
Jan 07, 2009
7:08 AM
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I would agree.. Roller Heaven.
I have also found that you don't want any extra perches in the open breeding loft that way the breeding pair fend..together.. for the perch front of there nest box. If the breeders can perch away from the breeder box that can start to create problem.
Brad winward
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Scott
1407 posts
Jan 07, 2009
7:16 AM
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(because they are tooo cocky...and I did not want a loft full of misfits...trying to get a piece of ass and not working as a team... rock and ROLL, Paul )
Boy this is a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black !!
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1744 posts
Jan 07, 2009
10:16 AM
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Scott...you got me....I am a wing slapper...If I was a roller I would be culled....I am a misfit...that is tooo cocky...and I am always trying to get...LOL...
Rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2009 10:33 AM
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Scott
1408 posts
Jan 07, 2009
10:20 AM
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(....I am a wing slapper...)
I've heard it called alot of things over the years,but I gotta admit that ones a first.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Hifly11
40 posts
Jan 07, 2009
1:21 PM
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Quick spin I totally agree with all your points
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Newbie 08
51 posts
Jan 07, 2009
1:45 PM
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I'm new at this but I'm feeling you Paul
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Newbie 08
52 posts
Jan 07, 2009
2:44 PM
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I breed open loft and all my birds are pretty much from the same family. It's all about performance for me
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s.cha
10 posts
Jan 08, 2009
6:33 PM
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why would it matter open loft or not...if the birds are stocked then they must be good and if they are the same family so why worry...who the parents are doesn't really matter to me cause performance is all rite except when your writting up peds then you're gonna want to know...but what can peds do too...its just a piece of paper. it doesn't make the bird roll..the bird makes itself roll.....just my opinion
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3757
1133 posts
Jan 08, 2009
8:17 PM
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Quinn (who did a legitimate research study) and many others have done scientific studies on open loft breeding. All of the conclusions reflect the illegitimacy rate is much higher than what is stated above (Quinn mentioned rollers probability would be higher if pairs are left mated for life). Quinn states in open loft nest arrangements the rate is 12-17% illegitimacy.
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fhtfire
1747 posts
Jan 08, 2009
9:34 PM
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3757....I dont believe it is that high...Not in my loft anyway...did Quin do it on Rollers or another breed...I think alot has to do with selection of cocks...most dont like cocky cocks....and they never make the stock loft...and non cocky cocks...dont seem to be has horny...LOL.....I think it would be hard to do a study..unless you did a study on different lofts and different set ups...I think it has a lot to do with how the nest boxes are set up as well as how big you loft is per bird.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollingline33
168 posts
Jan 08, 2009
10:33 PM
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roller men thanx for all the great feed back... but you guys are still not answering my question!!!! And dose any one know of some big name flyers that breed open loft ???? see my thing is that they breed open loft but they sale birds with peds!! how cud you!! if their are 20 too 30 birds in the open loft!! and whatt if half of the birds are the same color and type and size!! i know ther are birds that are beeing sold in so cal for 2 too 3 thousand dollars and are of open loft but they have peds that say who are the parents ???
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pigeon pete
24 posts
Jan 09, 2009
1:19 AM
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I'll relate a little story. I onve visited Bill Barret who at that time had been honored as a Master breeder by the NRBA or IRA I forget which. He showed me an open stock loft with about 8 or 10 pairs in, and he told me that they were all such good rollers that he had just put them in together and they had chosen there own mates. Pete.
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3757
1134 posts
Jan 09, 2009
3:25 AM
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Paul - I respect your opinion but as I stated it does have to do with certain nest boxes especially open boxes. The best set up numbers goes down to 3 percent and these are with boxes that are sheltered. I personally believe Quinn (who specifically pointed out rollers tend to be higher / also by the massive amount of pedigree errors I have seen that had sex link mating and the color of the young were incorrect. It really does not mean a hill of beans if the fancier does not care. But, there is a massive amount of Empirical research using different nest fronts as the instrument on birds such as wrens, pigeons and other birds. Bill Pensom only started using individual pens when he read a book on animal husbandry. Even then he had rollers in open loft but the birds that he felt were his cream he bred in individual cages (this is just some history). I think the fancier should use what they feel is best for them to breed and understand what is producing the goods in their loft. If a person breeds what he or she wants for club competition, National fly’s etc or his own personal enjoyment that is all that matters as long as he is happy and gets the results he or she desires. I do feel to answer the question that scientific evidence agrees and does not dispute that illegitimacy does happen in open loft breeding to a certain percentage.
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2009 3:26 AM
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norlan hollingate
1364 posts
Jan 09, 2009
11:40 AM
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wat most people are missing is that the reason for breeding is to produce good birds so with the open loft you can get the unknown wich can waste your time with individual breeding it is 100% g/teed
individual is a lot harder time wise but saves lots of time in the long run [none of us have got lots of time]
my individual boxes were 48"long 24" deep 26"high lots of room n birds were always in top condition n got to out every 3 days n bath
it does not mater how close your birds are or if you are cross breeding the main object is to get your best producing pairs
i agree that not all hens will let another cock trade it but it does happen
i think with the individuall u can breed less young knowing the stock u use are producing n not chancing it
its not for everyone but it is the only way u can 100%guarantee the parents
if u are breeding in small boxes then yes the birds will be unhappy
a lot of this hobby is about putting in the time a lot of time in the breeder will save lots more time in the sky when you wonder why the 2nd round are nowere near as good as the 1st??????????????????????????????????
like i say everyone to there own but to be g/teed there is only 1 way
some say best to best but as we all know this does not always work so how can people say there such a close family it does not matter lolllllllll
its all about finding good producers n keeping them
good luck to you all with your breeding but think first about wat u want
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kcfirl
541 posts
Jan 09, 2009
11:42 AM
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Eric,
thank you! I remember reading an article you wrote for the NBRC bulletin a couple of years ago which described your setup and the benefits therein.
I titally agreed with what you've said and thus designed my own nest boxes and loft in a simliar way. the only difference is that I do feed on the floor and the fronts are not completely open but the openings are quite large.
I completely agree that nest box and breeding loft design can drastically reduce the illigitamcy. Perhaps not to zero, but I believe to something less than 5%, which is good enough for me.
Best Regards,
Ken Firl
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ducket
45 posts
Jan 09, 2009
12:04 PM
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Hej Ken,
Good to hear that someone read it and took notice, on some of the photos I sent in you can see the birds sitting quiet on the nest fronts, I also have some DVD footage showing exactly the same scene, as I said I have not found a single young bird that was illegitmate.
Eric, Denmark.
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norlan hollingate
1367 posts
Jan 09, 2009
12:20 PM
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hi eric
you must be the only roller man who does not get illegitmate young lots pair up on the floor in any loft
no one is stating that every hen gets other cocks but im sure that there aint a roller man that cant say he aint seen it happen i know were your coming from you can cut it by giving less options but it does happen
just set up a web cam n record the full days n run through it on the f/fw
im not having a go but its not 100% in a open loft
the only 100 % is u cant be 100% sure g/teed
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fhtfire
1748 posts
Jan 09, 2009
12:47 PM
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3757,
Good post..The fact is the only way to get 100% accurate is individual....and if I was a pedigree breeder and selling birds based off a pedigree...of some famous bird then by all means it should be 100%.
I myself dont sell alot of birds and if someone wants a ped after they prove out a bird...then I will produce one...but they will know that I run open loft. ...but if someone buys a round of birds from me..they are not buying a piece of paper...they are buying performance.....
I am in this hobby for the enjoyment of the birds and to win some comps and lose some comps...and I breed for one thing only...building a team of top notch rollers and improving every year....
I run a tight ship and only breed from a handfull of pairs ...10-14....and everybird in my stock loft is related is some way....and if a bird pops out and lights it up in the air....it goes to the stock loft...and I will do my records to the best of my ability.....and that bird will be mated to a bird...not by ancestory but by peformance and type and character etc....and good old gut instinct....the fact is....mating is all luck anyway....if it hits...great..if it does not ...you start over.
Most buy birds from a BREEDER that has good birds....not what the background of the bird is....so if you want performance...then open or closed is not even a factor...especially if the breeder has a tight group of pigeons.....Now if you want a bird that is directly down from XYZ birds...then the breeder better put the XYZ birds in individual...especially if it is big bucks....you want to be sure....I myself...dont care from what came from what....I want a bird that hist and produces good birds.
I dont even pick birds in the air based on parents....I dont even look at the band number until I pick the bird from the air..and then think long and hard on who I want to put the bird on...then I check the band number....and see who the parents are...I dont want a pedigree to affect my decision....the only time I will switch a decision is a Father daughter or Mother Son....I dont breed that close and never will...I have bred livestock long enough to know that you breed to close you will get killed in the long run...it WILL blow up in your face....and then it is hard to recover.....trust me....been there done that...I feel it is better to keep the genes a little distant...and mean a little...like cousins, aunts , uncles and grand and great grand parents....I add the spice when the stew is cooking......not when the stew is burned and all done....LOL....
I also feel again..it is based on your strain and set up on what % of hanky panky you get....and cock selection..some like a powerful....cocky cock...some dont...and I think that plays alot into it....
If someone wants 100% then dont buy from me...if someone wants a 3% chance that out of 100 birds...3 will be ???? then buy from me....that simple...
I like ERics post too...but I dont agree with being careful about buying birds in the USA...that has nothing to do with it...you have to be carefull with the INDIVIDUAL you buy from...but if you are chasing performance.....I could care less what a piece of paper says.....a good breeder can put down whatever sire and dam they want....Honesty is what it is all about...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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ducket
46 posts
Jan 09, 2009
12:59 PM
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Hej Norman,
You are only saying that I am wrong, you have not proved me wrong, if you were still in the hobby I would have challenged you to try it, you have never done it so therefore you do not know, I will repeat you cannot prove me wrong by putting pen to paper,
Eric, Denmark.
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Robert
8 posts
Jan 10, 2009
10:29 AM
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Eric,
How can you identify illigitimate young if a blue bar cock cross-treads with a hen from a blue bar pair, or a black cock with a hen from a black pair?
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ducket
47 posts
Jan 10, 2009
10:44 AM
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Hej Robert, You have answered your own question yourself.
Eric, Denmark.
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pigeon pete
27 posts
Jan 10, 2009
3:50 PM
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If you have a very close inbred family that all look the same it may be difficult to spot youngsters that are illigitimate, but if they are that close any odd miss-mating will only be slightly different geneticaly from any other young out of the same bowl.
If you are working with different families, or even one family that has different types and colours, you usually get noticable traits that a stock bird will pass on. I have spent many hours watching the stock pen and haven't seen any hen being trodden by any other cock than her own mate, but that doesn't mean it never happens. If you consider that illigitimacy rates are relatively low, and many can be spotted by colour, or other traits then the odd bird that we may miss will not bother me too much. I want my pairs to produce the goods in good percentages, and because I only breed from a few pairs and don't pair up every year, I like to get 4 or five rounds out of each pair per season. If a pair produces 9 culls and one good bird (lets say it's illigitimate) I wouldn't stock that bird because it comes from poor producers.
If I happen to get a good roller from a good producing pair and it is illigitimate (whether or not I spot it) I would breed from it. Why breed from a bird that I don't know the parentage of?
1) I Know it is a good bird bred from good birds.
2) Only half it's parentage is in doubt.
3) If the birds produce a champion from a pairing that I didn't even select, then what do I know, and if by some chance I can work out which cock is the parent then I have a possible good mating in mind for the next season.
If you get 5% illigitimacy, half of them you should spot, and if we suppose that one bird in every 10 bred is worth stocking, then the chance of ending up with a stock bird with a doubtful pedigree is 0.5 birds for every 100 bred. To risk having 1 bird in 200 stock birds with a half incorrect pedigree is good odds when you think of all the disadvantages of individual pens.
I have to smile to myself when I read that some guy has spotted a pedigree mistake and puts it down to illigitimacy. I make mistakes filling in my stock book every year, such as putting the same ring number down for two birds, and mostly I find it later and check all the birds rings and work out where I went wrong.
I'm quite sure that any mistakes in my pedigrees are just as likely to by my fault, as to be the result of the birds fornicating.
Pete
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norlan hollingate
1371 posts
Jan 11, 2009
10:25 AM
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hi eric you cant prove your way is right
so how can i prove it wrong
u must first prove that i am wrong in stating that in a open loft there is no possibility 100% watsoever of a cock trading another hen wich u know is impossible
in individual breeders it is inpossible i can prove this u cant prove your side of the debate u can only put down wat u think
ive seen cocks knock another cock off the hen n trade it surely this is not just something in the water up here
watever u want to do with your birds i wish u luck
all i know is individual is the only 100% GUARANTEED
it does not matter if i have birds or not in the time i had them i did better than people who had them 10 years longer than me so perhaps i was doing things right hej [i dont blow my own trumpet i let others check the aerc n national results]
one of the reasons i got out of the roller game was because there is to many me me me people n the ones who only think there way is the only way
in all walks of life i do things my way but im also a good listner n i dont tell anybody the way it is just wat i think there are only certain things what are 100%
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norlan hollingate
1373 posts
Jan 11, 2009
10:41 AM
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sorry eric
i dont know were u got the info i not got any birds i still own 24 stock birds ive loaned them out m8
so whoever gave you that info were not 100% right m8
sorry i had to put the 100% thing eric but its g/teed lol
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j .wanless
592 posts
Jan 11, 2009
10:53 AM
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hi all
great topic .it all boils down to personal prefrence.
i think pete nailed most of it.but where i differ from him .i do breed in a open loft + like norman i have seen many many times cocks jumping on diffrent hens.what i do is ive said before i lock all my birds up at 1st .until they all know thier cages only letting 1 pair out at a time.so my 1st round is 100pc
then i let them all free .so my 2nd round is only 50 pc guaranteed.but as pete said with my birds they are all related .so even if something went on theyd still be really close related.i suppose my biggest prob could be they are too close.also like pete i make many mistakes when writing ring numbers down.ive used the same ring twice many a time.
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Hector Coya
386 posts
Jan 11, 2009
11:40 AM
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Ive had up to 3 old cocks over 16 years old in my open loft,Thay are all mated just for fosters becouse i dont like to get rid of old birds that did alot for me.
I have yet to see any of the hens lay fertil eggs with these cocks,everytime the hens lay i always check 4 days after and then i swich the eggs.if other cocks where jumping on other hens i whould get fertil eggs from these hens,i never have.
If there was a hen that whould produce a fertil egg ,i whould put her and the old cock in one of the only 4 individuals i have to see if it was fertil.
It hasnt happend.
And what ever i get from my breeding loft better be good,every bird we all stock is becouse it was good righ?
Hector Coya-SGVS
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ducket
48 posts
Jan 11, 2009
11:40 AM
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Hej Lads, Lasses and Norman,
I wrote, "I am no expert on Genetics but by using what little knowledge that I do have on the subject I can see if the birds have been fooling around".
So Norman explain to me why I do not get Grizzle out of two non Grizzles.
Explain why I do not get ash reds out of two blues.
Explain why I do not get Spread out of two non Spread birds.
Explain why I do not get Cheqs out of two Barred birds, etc etc etc, go down the list of Genetic illegitimacy yourself Norman, if you can answer these questions then you have answered what you have been arguing against all along.
Eric, Denmark.
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JBow
32 posts
Jan 11, 2009
11:40 AM
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I agree with Mr Wanless and Pigeon Pete. I used to use individual breeding cages. I'm to old and to lazy to mess with them anymore. I hate to see two depressed pigeons in a cage. I have a three section breeding loft with 3 nest boxes in each. I put the stock cocks in and let them have there time fighting over who gets what. Then i lock them up in the nest boxes and add the hens the way i want them paired and then let one pair out at a time in each section and rotate them in and out. 8 to 10 days there on eggs and i open the nest boxes. So like Mr Wanless says there 100%. After that i let them do there thing. I have a 10 nest box loft for fosters and i foster out my best pairs. Last year i raised 70 pigeons. This year i dought i raise 50. Don't really need to. Jim Bowen Kansas
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norlan hollingate
1380 posts
Jan 11, 2009
12:14 PM
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not arguing eric
as we all know genetics is totally different
wat i am stating is fact pigeons in a open loft cannot be g/teed not to cross trade
it seems like moore disagree with your way than wat agree so u must be right
i dont have to prove anything just read all this post from top to bottom
as you know you cant always use coulour as proof
wat people are not taking not of is NOT ALL BIRDS GET TRADED BY ANOTHER COCK BUT SOME I SAY SOME AGAIN ISAY SOME DO rest my case
but eric im sure ure right thats y u do it the way u do everyone to there own
the only way to be 100%yes100% is individual FACT
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ducket
49 posts
Jan 11, 2009
1:02 PM
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Hej Norman,
Genetics is the tool we use to spot illegitimacy with.
The fact that you have seen so many cocks treading other hens, confirms what I have been saying, the interiors to those lofts where you have seen this happen need to be redesigned, its as simple as that.
Thanks Norman, I know I am right.
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