fresnobirdman
385 posts
Jan 07, 2009
6:50 PM
|
i think that one white flights more of a "A" cause the wing tips touch each other.
~~Fresnobirdman~~
|
Bill C
154 posts
Jan 07, 2009
11:23 PM
|
He definfately has some nice birds in a video I saw recently where the camera was a high speed camera.
The thing is you want to see the birds touch the wing tips above the head. Many touch or are H when the wings are down but going up above the head is not as common. However you can likewise have a bird thats wings touch above the head but do not go all the way down. either way if they do not go completely H on above and down then it is a axle roller or an X or like an A but the H and () is best. It takes a trained eye to see it. I mean you have to watch the birds at the right angle to really see it just as you have to be at right side of an angle to see the side of them to see the hole if they have one. What I mean is there is two angles, one to see the hole in the side angle and infornt of them to see the wing position and the front angle.
I have not seen the pictures (u-tube) yet but I will check them out on another day. Bill C
Last Edited by on Jan 07, 2009 11:29 PM
|
fresnobirdman
389 posts
Jan 08, 2009
12:26 PM
|
ay tou,
heard you got some bcm birds?
lol.
~~Fresnobirdman~~
|
fresnobirdman
391 posts
Jan 08, 2009
4:28 PM
|
haha
thats good man,
~~Fresnobirdman~~
|
spinningdemon
169 posts
Jan 09, 2009
9:06 AM
|
Nice videos and I like the kit boxs to.
----------
David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
|
l.h.559
5 posts
Jan 27, 2009
10:32 PM
|
hey tou where did u get those bmc frm holla back
|
pigeon pete
90 posts
Jan 28, 2009
2:41 AM
|
I think there is as much misunderstanding about wing position than any other subject surrounding the roller.
In England you rarely even hear anyone discuss wing position. A wing psition chart was posted on an English website and one of the top breeders of quality rollers said he thought his birds looked most like the axle roll!!
I must have said this a hundred times (and maybe I am just wrong and the rest of the hobby is right)BUT:--
My perception is that the H roll or the X roll or the tight H roll when viewed from beneath, is the same roller that shows an A or goalpost from the front.
So to say is it an H or an A? is the wrong question in my eyes.
It should be is it an H and an A.
Another bird may be a goalpost from the front and an X from below.
The oft repeated thing about wings touching above the head and below the belly to form the H is also mistaken in my opinion.
I have not got high speed cameras, but if a birds wings go all the way from up to down, they will take longer to do it (slow roll) and between the 2 extreems they will be sticking out to the side. To further make that point, if the wings are up when the bird is one way, then down when it is the other way then you would get a U or a V roller because the wings would always be oriented in the same direction. The only way to get a perfect H with no wings out to the side is if the birds keeps the wings together all the time and just 'scoops' the air with very little outward movement. More of a back and forth movement than an up and down.
It's all a matter of pespective.
Pete.
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
136 posts
Jan 28, 2009
7:10 AM
|
Funny but you never see a camera shot of a bird rolling with the proper small hole that has been the standard for roll quality in a birds performance since before Pensom and other English top breeders birds came over to the States. Joe
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2009 7:21 AM
|
topnotch uk
127 posts
Jan 28, 2009
8:52 AM
|
pensom ha-ha ho ho
|
BA Rollers
169 posts
Jan 28, 2009
12:23 PM
|
Joe, you won't see the hole in a video because the hole is the product of an illusion. Video doesn't record fluidly enough. I was converting some 1080i HD raw footage to Flash the other day and was using some of the more clear and crisp clips for examples. I still couldn't get the liquidity of what we see. In fact, the HD versions particulary after the flash conversions showed the "gaps" in the frame rate more clearly. It was most obvious with the wing beat of the bird, it looks like a strobe effect which is not what we see in person.
I like um H pattern, but have to settle for x wingers most of the time.
|
Ballrollers
1679 posts
Jan 28, 2009
12:34 PM
|
Pete,
Video analyisis shows that a roller's wings never get above horizontal during the roll. It just looks like the wings meet on top because the bird is upside down at the time. The pulse is from horizontal (or less) pulling the wings together in front of the breast in rapid succession depending on the strength of the roll impulse.
Cliff
|
pigeon pete
92 posts
Jan 28, 2009
1:53 PM
|
Cliff,
I don't need video anaylsis, I've got fast eyes,lol
But seriously folks I knew that. If you read my post I didn't say where they actualy travel, but where mistaken people think they travel.
In other words you and I agree.
I've posted lots of posts on pigeon forums saying just that, but you still get guys saying that they wing stroke all the way up and down. Maybe guys who write books should get their facts straight before publishing stuff as this is how myths are born.
I just presumed that everyone by this time knows what a roller does as it rolls. The biggest difficulty most have is visualizing in their minds eye what a roller is doing. They can imagine the wing beat, and also imagine it spinning but they don't seem to put the two together. FOR EXAMPLE, they sometines say that they must stroke up and down because the image created is an H, and you just can't tell them otherwise.
The H image from below is created by the wings coming together before the point of wing tips touching (in front of the bird when it is upside down) and by them seperating again after they have gone over the top.
We usually dont see the wings out to the side from below because the movement is too fast.
When viewed from the front we see the wing tips touching at the top of the image, and this is the position where we can tell how wide apart the wings are swept at the bottom of the A. We don't get the illusion of the H because the movement that created that image is moving up quick accross our vision and it is not seen. Someday I will research what this illusiory effect is called, and find a better way to explain it but until than I will use the example I have oft repeated. Standing on a train platform looking across as an express train goes by we have no clear impression of what it is, it is just a blur but we can clearly see the opposite platform through the train windows.
Watch the same train, at the same speed, as you stand on the lines and it is coming towards you and you see every detail as it bears down on you.
That may be an exreme example, and don't tyr it at home.
Transfer that thought process to a rolling pigeon.
From underneath, the extending legs of the the H section is either coming towards you or going away from you and is visable. The wings out to the side are there but they are crossing you vision from right to left or vice verca and so they blur out.
From the front the wing out section is comming towards you or away, and so you can see it as the lower section of the A or goalpost. Likewise the wing touching phase is traveling towards you or away from you and is visable as the top of the A frame.
A fully working spinning model would take some making but it would be a great way to demonstrate the roller in action. Unlike film you could then view it very slowly and smoothly, and then see what it does when it speeds up.
Regards, Pete.
P.S if I hade a roller that held it's wings near to horizontal I would probably cull it. Not sure I ever saw one though
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2009 1:56 PM
|