Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
136 posts
Jan 16, 2009
1:50 PM
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----------Folks, we kick around some very good subject on this site, but honestly, many have hidden roots that most of us cannot explain except with our short time with the hobby. Looking at Levi's book 'The Pigeon'..we come in with a couple of ideas.
1. Fulton (1876) in his book complete on most breeds says very little.
2. Lyell (1897) expresses the theory that the B'roller descended from the Dutch Tumbler. In Lyell's time the B'roller was either clean legged or muffed of many colors, selfs, mottles, saddles, (magpie), whitesides, badges, grizzles ect.
3. Wright (1901) mentions this breed only under the general subject of Flying Tumbler.
4. Chapman (1934) advances the theory it was produced with a cross between the old English Tumbler and the Dutch Roller described by Brent.
5. Pensom (1933) is of the opinion that it is descended from the Oriental Roller.."so crossed as to reduce the size of bodily structure along with a reduction both in the number of tail feathers and shortening of same".
Levi ends this with "Probably the exact origin of the Birmingham Roller will always remain in doubt owingto the lack of sufficient literature upon the subject.
6. In 1870 Charles Lienhard of Ohio Pennsylvania bred B'rollers as E.R.B. Chapman acquired his first Rollers from Lienhard in 1883. In a Lancaster Pa, show 1881, Birmingham Rollers were exhibited under the name of J.E. schum, H. Hirsch and C. Lippold.
7. 1879 October "Fanciers Journal' little flying pigeons flown twice a day and remain up hours during which they pass through wonderful and marvellous aerial gymnastice at an immense altitude.
8. 1765 the Short-faced Tumbler was still a flying breed, flown 8-12 hours in 1802.
9. 1676 Willughby.."These are small and of diverse colors, they have strange motions, turning themselves backwards over their heads and show like footballs in the air"
Enough already..you get the gist..there is a lot in the gene bank of our present day Birmingham Roller.
Come on folks, get your digging tools out and lets fill the family tree of our birds.
De Oppresso Liber
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Windjammer Loft
651 posts
Jan 16, 2009
2:13 PM
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Bruce..if I understand what you are saying???
Their are too many guys on this site that want instant answers. "Nobody" wants to put in any time or work into anything anymore.... They ask too many question without even doing any "Homework". One of the better ways to get answers is is use the Search Site. Just a sugggestion.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 7:43 AM
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brudahpete
394 posts
Jan 16, 2009
2:52 PM
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If you ask Larry Jolly, he would probably say that given the 12 tail feather configuration & that there are two very good & similar Turkish breeds which, coincidentally have only 12 tail feathers each, it stands to reason that maybe they come from a Turkish line. Who knows! They were bred into existence by somebody!! Lol!
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http://www.freewebs.com/brudahpete/
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
138 posts
Jan 16, 2009
4:22 PM
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Paul..you hit the nail on the head exactly. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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ezeedad
922 posts
Jan 16, 2009
8:25 PM
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Bruce,
Bill Pensom wrote this about Bill Richards.
"The real breeders from the beginning of the century could be counted on one hand, and the greatest of them all was the late Bill Richards of Harborne, Birmingham. He was regarded in the highest esteem by all the breeders of Rollers. His birds could be recognized anywhere, and he could tell by looking at another fancier's birds whether or not there was any of his blood in the other's birds. His birds were small and tight and compact. Their predominant color was red check, dun, and the various shades of blue and blue check. The few odd self or two, were but throwbacks. He had a remarkable eye for a pigeon. He could readily sum up the quality of any bird he saw including physical defects which would have escaped the eye of any other fancier. He was a regular visitor to the Blackcountry, where he was a household word. Bill Richards never sold or gave away any of his birds. The only blood of his Rollers which got into other hands was obtained by the noble art of catching. Catching strays was always considered a sporting event in Flying Tumbler circles in those far off days. His family of Rollers was the only one in existence up to the twenties which portrayed a well thought out process of breeding skill. The facet of the limited variety of color proved his belief in inbreeding, which everybody else was frightened of. Bill Richards died in 1938, after 70 years of keeping Rollers, and never a day without them."
This is why I believe that Bill Richards may well have been the source of the original Birmingham Roller.
I think there had been the occasional outstanding spinner produced before Richards came along, but he was the one that really made a BREED by inbreeding and making the first real pure strain of them. This is just to the best of my knowledge.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jan 16, 2009 8:38 PM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
140 posts
Jan 16, 2009
9:43 PM
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Paul..I hear ya..good post..But his was not the only family in existence..we have hand written letters dated 1901-1927 from Whittingham to McAree with reputable paper that said these birds were available 30+ years before that. Think what a person wants to about Whittingham..but the point is that there were birds in England doing 6-8 yard and some more than that. Casperson of R.I. got his very early in the 1902...there were a lot of birds in the area prior to the 1920's. My personal mentor, George Patterson of Carthage N.C. had birds in 1923..good spinning birds. All off of imports. Patterson had HRC banded birds imported. A family of red bar bald heads comes to mind. Paul, we are filling in the 'roller family tree'. Where did Bill Richards get his start? I suggest by vigorous selection and thoughtful breeding. Richard Krupke in Canton was a trail blazer in the U.S. until he died in the 1970's. He had every color in the book and good ones at that. Folks from states around came to Krupke to select and watch his birds in the air..that is recent news. Paul, I have no axe to grind..but simply wish folks would not be so narrow minded in their posts..a lot of new flyers are here and when asking a simple question need to get a solid simple answer, not one tainted with personal bias. Thank you for your contribution. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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cv rollers
232 posts
Jan 16, 2009
9:56 PM
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thank u longroller good post i am a newbie and asked this b4 and got alot of different answers, not that i what a quick answer nor want to do my home work.. with todays internet u could find out alot very quickly just by punching a few keys,i am not trying to offend any one just trying to educate myself a little more about these great birds and any body the wishes to share their knowledge with us new guy is great
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RodSD
147 posts
Jan 16, 2009
11:34 PM
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My guess is that they descended from flying tumblers. I think rollers are like flying tumblers culls. Basically they roll too much instead of just tumbling once or twice. But apparently some people loved that so they breed them and we now have rollers.
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Windjammer Loft
655 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:37 AM
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Bruce....I agree with you 150%. To me that's one of the "Biggest" problems we have today. Everyone wants a "quick fix". The "patience" and "learning process" factor has completely gone out of the picture.
Iam all for the internet and fast access, but lets use it properly and to it's fullest advantage.
Do some Homework first....
Things have deffinately changed since we were kids startring out in the pigeon game..
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 8:38 AM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
141 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:46 AM
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rolller alley..I agree with you.."who cares" in 2009!! I just enjoy my backyard or competition fly days. However if you will check the past 10 pages of threads, take note of how much space is taken to conversation on 'what is the right color..pure family..only family of B'rollers' ect..95% is pure conjecture over a cup of coffee and the new fancier is left with his foundations just that..pure conjecture..or opininon. Kinda of a rough way to start a serious hobby don't you think. Great deductions by the way. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Scott
1443 posts
Jan 17, 2009
9:02 AM
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Bruce, I know of very few that considered the Wittinghams or fire balls As "quality" Rollers.
As for "colors" yes the breed comes in many, then we have those that Bastardize the breed for it from other breeds (good example is the "My Pensoms" thread,poor guy)that is where the debates come from as I'm sure you are aware.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 9:03 AM
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ezeedad
923 posts
Jan 17, 2009
10:22 AM
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Bruce,
You may think I was being narrow minded, but that is something I am rarely accused of.
But you are right about one thing... when you said "Where did Bill Richards get his start? I suggest by vigorous selection and thoughtful breeding."
That is how he perfected his family. Not by going around picking up birds and straying them in as was a common practice in those days.. In fact, it seems that hasn't changed much...
I suppose you can give the credit to scores of breeders who were around before Richards, but if you consider the Birmingham Roller to be the bird that falls into Pensom's definition, these birds were rare and not of the common variety. So I give Richards credit for "scientifically" creating a strain of this type of bird.
I agree with Scott that the Whittinghams and Fireballs don't measure up to the standard Pensom described and brought in his birds.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 10:23 AM
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KATCHER
15 posts
Jan 17, 2009
9:57 PM
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good stuff!!!
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
142 posts
Jan 18, 2009
3:28 PM
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I am smileing guys..go read the history of Richard Krupke of Canton Ohio..and all that flew with him..then come back and tell me that Whittingham birds were never in the mix. I grant you for sure and agree with you that the birds of competition today will jump (roll) thru the hoops and do exactly as the flyer/breeder wants..because of the 'selective' breeding, training and culling done the past 30 years. We see numbers climbing in the WC and Fall Flys..I do not know where it is going to peak, but...that is another story. However, I will be adament that there were fantastic spinners in the early 1920's in the Continental U.S. of A. by way of imports from merry ol' England. (smile)
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De Oppresso Liber
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3757
1140 posts
Jan 18, 2009
3:53 PM
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Both Harry Bellfield and Bill Richards obtained thier stock from Harry Young. Harry Young was famous in the 1800's and Bellfields old Silver cock was bred by him also.(From the PRC 2009 booklet copywrite 2009)
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 3:55 PM
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Scott
1464 posts
Jan 18, 2009
3:56 PM
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LaRon,interesting stuff, wheres the book ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
1141 posts
Jan 18, 2009
4:53 PM
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Scott - Max and I are getting everything out to press. You will be the first to get one as I want your feedback as I know you will.
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 4:55 PM
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Scott
1465 posts
Jan 18, 2009
5:14 PM
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I am seriously looking forward to it !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
144 posts
Jan 18, 2009
5:20 PM
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Dr. L...I am on your list. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
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Ballrollers
1648 posts
Jan 18, 2009
9:01 PM
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LaRon,
I guess there are many of us who are!
Cliff
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ezeedad
925 posts
Jan 19, 2009
11:51 AM
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LaRon,
Glad to get another peice of the puzzle. Do you know anything about how Harry Young bred his birds and/or where he got his birds from?
Paul
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ezeedad
926 posts
Jan 19, 2009
12:05 PM
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Bruce,
I would bet that the Whittinghams and fireballs had their share of superstars. Pensom had birds of a different standard though.. that, in the course of things, have prevailed.
Glad to see that those strains of rollers are still going strong...
Paul G
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2009 8:02 PM
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3757
1144 posts
Jan 19, 2009
1:18 PM
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Paul - I will give you a call and thanks.
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
145 posts
Jan 19, 2009
3:43 PM
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The only person that I know that did the comp. with Whitt's is JJ Testa and he worked them for many years to become "The Old Boston Family"..and I think they were crossed. He said he wanted the Whitt blood because of the harsh NE weather and he needed stamina. I will be the first to say that Whitt's and Fireball's today are definately not "out of the box" comp. birds. "In the day" they were quite competetive..many in Ohio had their blood.
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De Oppresso Liber
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