Scott
1442 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:31 AM
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For you new guys, I learned a very long time ago that if I believed even half of what I read or heard that I might as well cull every thing on the property.
There is no family out there that you can buy into the name with and be succesful, it doesn't work that way, good solid birds are and will always be like finding nuggets of gold, if it sounds too good ,like anything in life BEWARE.
The fact is building a solid stud of birds takes years of hard work,a few short years is nothing, the work that it must take can and is very rewarding, but a solid stud of birds is something that you can't buy, if you are hearing alot of hype,well that is what it is , hype.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 8:34 AM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
194 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:34 AM
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Thank you Scott, well said indeed. I hope the youngsrers out there take this to heart!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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birdman
687 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:59 AM
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Scott, what % of good 'A' team quality birds do you breed each year?
Russ
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George R.
1304 posts
Jan 17, 2009
9:00 AM
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Scott
You are right there are no short cuts in this hobby.
But there are some established Familys that will give you a Better Chance to Fly good Birds.
That is of Course if a person has the Basics down ( housing,Fly, Feed , Water,daily,) and some common sence.
Some Familys are much harder to work with( everyone that has had Birds for a while knows the Familys) and there are some Family's that some call BoneHeads just because they Like to start Rolling at a early age and are very popular.
Whatever choice a Person makes , get some Birds from a Person that COMPETES and does decent with thier Birds.
Dont get Birds from a person that Claims to have good Birds but wont Fly them against other people and enter Competitions.
Unless all you want is some Birds to feed and once in a while see some roll(rare Ocasions).
ohh and stay away from Familys that Fly to the MOON and you have to starve to Beaks and nails for control, what pleasure does a person get when they cant see the Birds in the air or are a eyesore in the kitbox(barely alive due to lack of Feed for control).
Good Luck
George
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 9:05 AM
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birdman
688 posts
Jan 17, 2009
9:08 AM
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Beaks and nails. That's funny George...but true.
Russ
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Scott
1444 posts
Jan 17, 2009
10:41 AM
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George, like I said, there is "NO" family out there that will give you an edge where the sport is concerned, there are only certain lofts that will up your chances of finding a "FEW" key birds to start your program with.
As for birds that fly to the moon,my birds can be a royal pain in the ass where this is concerned, and this is where management comes into play, other birds are hard to get to lift, it is almost a case of pick your poison.
As for an "easy" to handle family, this generaly means unstable and a lot of activity, and they generaly quit rolling with age or fall apart,so yes management plays in big to keep them from plowing dirt as long as possible, regardless like I said,pick your poison.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 12:20 PM
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Scott
1445 posts
Jan 17, 2009
10:56 AM
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That is a hard one Russ, if I loose my A-team it takes me at least two to three years to rebuild a solid A-team that I'm truelly thrilled with.
If I got the percentages of what "I" consider good that many claim I would be hard to beat in any major fly,but the fact is I get no where near those percentages.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Shaun
877 posts
Jan 17, 2009
11:24 AM
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Yes, Scott, I'm soon to be four years down the line and my Masons have proved to be relentlessly hard to lift; they're every bit as much a pain in the arse as birds which fly too high.
Shaun
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nicksiders
3217 posts
Jan 17, 2009
12:28 PM
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There is no magic bullet family, but on the same subject you can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit. I learned that from KGB.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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quality
135 posts
Jan 17, 2009
12:38 PM
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Shaun, your Mason birds, are you feeding them the way George feeds them in England?
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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Shaun
878 posts
Jan 17, 2009
12:56 PM
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Don, I'm in England and have followed George's instructions to the letter. It means squat - they are renowned as a low-flying strain of rollers. It suits George due to where he is, but it often doesn't suit others in a different location.
Don't get me wrong - they are a great strain in many ways, but if you're surrounded by trees and houses, as I am, they can be just as problematic as a strain which elevates too high.
Shaun
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quality
137 posts
Jan 17, 2009
1:24 PM
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I only asked that question because I fly English birds also & the way I was told how to feed them does not work in Canada where I live. My birds are also hard to get up in the air, but my coop is in the wide open so it does not bother me so much. Sometimes they are stopping the roll a meter from the ground. Very seldom do they get much above 75 meters or 200 feet.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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j .wanless
602 posts
Jan 17, 2009
1:38 PM
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hi don
i have seen georges birds many times here in the uk.
also as i have explained to shaun who has g.m birds.
we could not fly them where i live in a built up area
but i have seen them in south africa + they fly much better there than here.but i have been told by the africans they had big probs with them for years.until they started to pick certain types of the mason birds
now they have them flying as good as any other birds.
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quality
139 posts
Jan 17, 2009
1:53 PM
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Lots of guys around fly basically the same birds as I do. There birds are mostly way to high.
I have no problems with the hieght of my birds, and yes they are getting better with my breeding program.
200 feet is a perfect hieght to watch rollers.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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j .wanless
604 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:03 PM
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hi don
like shaun said it all depends where you live.apart from the trees george as no other high buildings apart from the church .where i live its a built up area with 2 story houses all around me.my own birds can cope with my area as i have spend many years breeding them to adapt to my needs.but georges birds would not last very long here.
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quality
141 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:08 PM
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I have a row of 100 foot poplars & row upon row of open fields.
I think you may be surprised how birds will adapt to their surroundings.
I believe this is why my birds fly where they do, there is nothing for them to hit & they use the poplars to set up their breaks.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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j .wanless
605 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:27 PM
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don georges birds themselves cant cope with the surroundings where he lives so would have no chance at all where i live.i know you fly georges birds but you say you have lots of open fields i only dream of open fields.but my birds have much more stability than georges birds.every time ive been to georges house ive seen silly birds rolling when they should not.i rarely get that with my birds.though like every one i do get the odd one that makes a mistake.
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quality
142 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:59 PM
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Actually I fly Browns & Barretts, I believe thats what Georges birds go back to. At least thats what Ross Vito tells me.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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RodSD
151 posts
Jan 17, 2009
7:30 PM
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There are always a cull in any family. LOL!
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donnie james
186 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:47 PM
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AMEN scott you hit the nail on the head what you wrote.................donny james
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KATCHER
2 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:57 PM
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rite onnn scott!!
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Andy_her
63 posts
Jan 17, 2009
9:37 PM
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Scott, YOU ARE RITE...Agree
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George R.
1309 posts
Jan 17, 2009
10:15 PM
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As for an "easy" to handle family, this generaly means unstable and a lot of activity, and they generaly quit rolling with age or fall apart,so yes management plays in big to keep them from plowing dirt as long as possible, regardless like I said,pick your poison.
Scott
have you ever flown a whole kit of Jacc based Birds? for a couple of years ?
I dont know where you seen or heard that they fall apart after a year , But I have been flying them for a few years and they get better with age the depth and speed increases as they age and gueess what thier frequency does DECREASE with age.
I do put a good foundation on them as youngsters by feeding them all they will eat as long as they trap as soon as they land.
Also I dont keep them on the edge for a long time as I prefer to build them up and then bring the conditioning down after they are over a year old.
Scott with your training skills which are top notch you would probably win every time if you flew the Reed, and Higgins, Horner, family of birds .
george
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 10:22 PM
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Scott
1450 posts
Jan 17, 2009
10:46 PM
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Yes I have flown Jacs before and have seen countless kits of such.
(Scott
have you ever flown a whole kit of Jacc based Birds? for a couple of years ?)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 11:55 PM
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Scott
1452 posts
Jan 18, 2009
12:00 AM
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Why would that be George ?
If that was true then that would be what would be in my backyard.
(Scott with your training skills which are top notch you would probably win every time if you flew the Reed, and Higgins, Horner, family of birds .)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 12:01 AM
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3757
1142 posts
Jan 18, 2009
4:57 PM
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Scott, the quote you stated was awesome and I hope you use it more often.
"If that was true then that would be what would be in my backyard."
I do not think a fancier in the world could deny what you stated above.
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velocity1
45 posts
Jan 18, 2009
6:07 PM
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George,
You say this (Dont get Birds from a person that Claims to have good Birds but wont Fly them against other people and enter Competitions.
Unless all you want is some Birds to feed and once in a while see some roll(rare Ocasions).)
Do you really believe this just cause they don't compete?I myself don't believe this and i only compete in the world cup once a year and have placed twice in the top 10.I have been out of birds for like 5 years do to work but now i'm flying again.
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Alohazona
548 posts
Jan 18, 2009
7:26 PM
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Velocity1,you will hear that over and over again from again from George,must be an old wound.
What Scott said is correct,and has nothing to do with who is competing or not.Good birds are were you find them,and one could easily spend a small fortune from a top five competitor and get a producer of stiffs just the same.I've been there done that,no regret or wounds,it just taught me,it was a gamble,nothing more nothing less.
I am not in the market for birds,because I like what I have and competitions help me personally,when I can afford the time to do so.
I guess good advice would be is buy a kit of young birds from some one that has birds with alot of quality roll.Fly them out,breed from the best birds,cross your fingers and hope they produce more of the same,and cull hard.No matter who you get them from ,that will be your jumping off point.....Aloha,Todd
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velocity1
46 posts
Jan 18, 2009
8:08 PM
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Alohazona,
I like your answer along with scott's
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Ballrollers
1646 posts
Jan 18, 2009
8:32 PM
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Scott,
You started the thread with such solid advice. But when you said, "As for an "easy" to handle family, this generaly means unstable and a lot of activity, and they generaly quit rolling with age or fall apart,so yes management plays in big to keep them from plowing dirt as long as possible, regardless like I said,pick your poison," you reverted back to the same kind of invalid generalizations that cause new flyers to believe that a family name or a particular bird in a family will insure their success. I have bred and flown half a dozen families of birds. In my experience, there are definitely "easier" families of birds to handle and it has little to do with instablitly or falling apart with age. Some families (and strains within families) tend towards higher percentages of kitting problems...or tree-sitters....or non-flyers....or high-flyers....or low flyers.....or wing-switching....or flying on one-wing. And some families are relatively simple...one can achieve a relative degree of competitiveness with a minimum of knowldege and experience. I would characterize those as "easy" falmilies to work with. And then others are a downright challenge to all but the most experienced and knowledgeable, and defintely not for the novice. But, of course, time, knowledge and experience with a family makes them easier to work with. For example, I suspect that I might have a difficult time with your birds for awhile, and I might be tempted to chracterize them negatively at first, as diffcult, etc.....just as you might have difficulty managing my family, at first, without turning them into lawn darts, leading you to draw equally unjustified negative conclusions as I did with your family.(I hope that made some sense! LOL!) In other words, we have to be very careful about making sweeping generalizations about ANY family of rollers today. There are good and bad lines in every family.
Cliff
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Scott
1467 posts
Jan 19, 2009
6:31 AM
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Cliff,all families must be managed, these are athletes and must be treated as such,and athletes must be managed,and different families manage differently,if someone says thier family is "easy" they still have a lot to learn about thier family and what it takes to get the most out of them without putting them over the edge,or if they are bred to close to the edge how to keep them drawn back from it,it seems that for every positive that a family has there is a negative on the other end.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 19, 2009 6:41 AM
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gotspin7
2210 posts
Jan 19, 2009
6:22 PM
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"If that was true then that would be what would be in my backyard."
Scott, I agree! 100%.
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Sal Ortiz
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velocity1
47 posts
Jan 19, 2009
7:40 PM
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"If that was true then that would be what would be in my backyard."
If it was that easy no one would be doing it:)
Thats what make's this a hobby/sport.
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viper
53 posts
Jan 19, 2009
8:59 PM
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I would think it takes 3 to 5 years to even get a idea on the birds you are keeping.You can't go out and buy birds raise a kit fly them and win don't care whose they are won't happen.If thats all their is to it everybody would be winning the funs gone.The ones that are at the top didn't get there over night.
So put in the time and work to get to the top.Blake
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spinningdemon
210 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:10 AM
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Blake,
3-5 years that dosent seem to long to learn a family.
I know you have done very well with your birds. I loved seeing that black mottle at the FF last fall neat bird. It is great to have guys like you that give good solid advice.
If it dosent die when it hits it was not fast enough!
Fly the best, cull the rest!
Feed-em well you know.
Thanks again Blake and i will get with you later, my e-mail still wont go to you.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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macsrollers
12 posts
Jan 20, 2009
8:52 PM
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Starting with a proven family of name birds only enhances your opportunity to succeed. It only takes a few seasons to ruin a good stud of birds when you are just learning and don't know the ins and outs of the family you are breeding. Sometimes we complicate matters by trying to be too scientific and analytical. These traits are not bad as you gain experience, but as beginners it is best to keep it simple. Breed birds to fly, fly them out-for at least 12 months to 18 months if possibe- and stock the best spinners. Then breed the the best cocks to the best hens and continue building from there. Regardless to the family of birds you start with, I am a firm believer that, if you fly them out, the birds you stock are the birds that adapted to the conditions you fly them in and your training and feeding style. A bird from the Northwest may not do well in the desert or dry conditions and visa versa. As beginners we do so many things, due to our lack of knowledge, to screw up our birds. We aren't consistent in our training and feeding, we don't know how to manage kit birds individually, and most start out with mixed ages of birds flown together. Then we wonder why our percentage of good birds is few! The birds that perform at a high level in spite of our inconsistencies and lack of knowledge are truly exceptional birds and valuable for the beginner's program. Sincerely, Don M. Mac's Rollers
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2355 posts
Jan 20, 2009
9:01 PM
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Well said Don..love that post..
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Ralph
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viper
54 posts
Jan 20, 2009
9:23 PM
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David
In 3 to 5 years you still will not know your family of birds you might might start to get a idea but thats about it nothing more nothing less.In 4 years I've stocked 4 birds my breeders are still young enough I don't worry about breeders to much they have got to really make me go wow or they stay flying.I breed from about 2 or 3 pair during the summer lock down foster 2 sets then back to flying.As long as I have the parants I just raise more hoping for what I like.Blake
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Scott
1485 posts
Jan 21, 2009
7:52 AM
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Blake,you are a 100 0/0 correct about this,and even that "idea" that you think that you have will probably change over time LOL.
It takes a few years just to figure out the true value (or lack of) of a potential stock bird,and that is after flying it out,to top it off will the prodigy of your producing pairs produce also ? boom there goes a few more years trying to figure that out, and we haven't even touched on the handing part.
The biggest problem people have starting out is collecting too many families that are like night and day from each other and breeding from to many pair.
I am also guilty of the above at one time, first by doing this you "will" breed a ton of culls,and the culls will hold back the good ones,no one progresses forward by breeding lots of pigeons,in fact it is just the opposite,if it worked I would have kept doing it myself.
What I learned is if you are breeding 200 plus pigeons a year is that you need to go out and cull at least 2/3 rds of your breeders,(in reality they are culls anyway)and then use some fosters and try and figure out what else needs to be culled out from those so called stock birds that you still have.
Once you have figured out that in reality you only have a few good one's (hopefully) then you are on the right path,those few good ones are your building blocks,thats when it starts coming together and you actually start building your family.
As for all of the various families,the magement will be all over the board,so many will be wasted just simply because there will be no rym or reason in the management,its like having a skinny kid and a fat kid that you want to get into fit condition and yet you train and feed them exactly the same
(In 3 to 5 years you still will not know your family of birds you might might start to get a idea but thats about it nothing more nothing less.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2009 8:11 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2362 posts
Jan 21, 2009
8:26 AM
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Beautiful Scott your post not you lol...
I don't have nothing today because I started out with different family's and to top that off I had to learn the different family's one bird of each .they were for free so I couldn't complain but it set me back 5 to 7 years learning that they fly different eat different then learning to train them ..the manage department I bred hundreds but because of all this mix nothing came good so now ten years later I am starting new with less ,,I can work circles around less than more..
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Ralph
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COYOTE33
182 posts
Jan 21, 2009
8:28 AM
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"The biggest problem people have starting out is collecting too many families that are like night and day from each other and breeding from to many pair."
Scott that probably is the best comment I've read in this whole post and no i'm not yanking your chain and some of the other post are very nice. but you are right when it comes to families of birds for the new guys.
go see the the family if you can if not find someone who is having some success with the family and go from there . be patient cull where you see fit and develope them the way you want to see them respond.
and if you dont like them get rid of them, but don't bad mouth them or the breeder, they where not for you thats all there is.
coyote
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3757
1145 posts
Jan 21, 2009
8:47 AM
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Scott - Please e-mail me at ldoucet@spfldcol.edu
Also, many people do not want to hear what you are saying Scott and it is a shame. If someone else would say the same things you are they would be all over them and we know why. I am glad you are telling it like it really is. Go out and get birds from someone that is "famous" and think you are going to be the big cheese? I do not think so.
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Scott
1486 posts
Jan 21, 2009
9:04 AM
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I might add that it doesn't just stop with too many families,it can be just as easily be too many cull breeders of the same family, and I have been there also.
What I write here are "MY" past experiances that I had to learn the hard way,but it fits all,gotta head out to work now but I will step through my little journey that will help some save a decade of time if they are willing to learn by my mistakes,by the way a decade is just enough time to start to put a hard scratch into the surface of learning your birds.
PS Laron I will email you later,gotta run
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 21, 2009 9:05 AM
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J_Star
1841 posts
Jan 21, 2009
12:34 PM
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What do you mean there is no majic bullet families out there!!! They are a dime a dozen and there for the picking (lol).
Jay
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