steves birds
12 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:26 AM
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Im sure this has been discussed many times but I haven't been able to find it. With the fog and freezing conditions of the Northwest I haven't been able to get my birds in the air but seldom. My best bird which was always doing the teaching and seemed to be a real show off has now rolled to the ground the last three times out. It is obvious that I will need to lock him down for the balance of the winter and maybe forever. Two questions. Why is he doing it and will he produce roll down stock if I use him for breeding exclusively.
Last Edited by on Jan 20, 2009 10:28 AM
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quickspin
978 posts
Jan 20, 2009
10:43 AM
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Onestly I would of not lock down this bird forever as it lacks the speed and control. If the bird had speed and it would bump even at 4' high that would be the end or series injury.
Just let him rest for a couple of weeks and feed him up. Fly him again and if it roll downs it aint good.
A roll down is a bird that regarless of height he will roll down. A bird that bumps or crashes is not a roll down.
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SALAS LOFT
I.C.R.C
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2338 posts
Jan 20, 2009
11:16 AM
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I would do what Quick suggested rest him couple of weeks or even a month if he still does it its no good .feed him a good mix----------sound like a bumper but I don't breed those neither ,some people toss them up when let out with the rest of birds .I don't waste time with that.
I had one that had speed when he bump coming in it was his last bump .
Ralph
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0221
1 post
Jan 20, 2009
12:35 PM
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When Your done with your resting period fly that pigeon a couple of times by its self.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2343 posts
Jan 20, 2009
12:37 PM
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Good point 0221 and Welcome I see its your first post .tell us a little where you from if you don't mind..
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Ralph
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steves birds
13 posts
Jan 20, 2009
1:50 PM
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Ok , good stuff. He's sometimes starting his spinning very low. Twenty feet or so and not pulling out. Is this considered a roll down or a bump? Is this common for a great bird to just start this or could it be from not getting flown often enough and having the excitement just too much for him. Anyone seen this happen? And ideas as to why?
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quality
155 posts
Jan 20, 2009
3:30 PM
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Like everyone is saying, just lock him up, feed him up. If he rolls down again, eat him thats all he's good for.
And your question, yes he's considered a roll down.
Even if you could have flown hin on a regular basis he would have eventually rolled down.
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Yours in the Hobby
Don Lunau
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0221
2 posts
Jan 20, 2009
3:31 PM
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How old is this pigeon and how long have You been flying it?
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wishiwon2
125 posts
Jan 20, 2009
3:43 PM
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This is exactly the reason why experienced flyers tell not to pull a bird for stock until after its flown a couple of years. Birds change as they mature, some get stronger others get weaker (mentally) and unless we fly them out for a few seasons, we never know completely what we have. It is frustrating I know, to have a seemingly good one develope a fault, been there done that, but the only way to improve is be honest with yourself about your birds, cut your losses when you have them and keep moving on. Thats why this hobby/sport is such a challenging one, it takes alot of time and effort and there are no short-cuts.
I see it often. It comes from not flying consistently. In general the more often a bird flies, the less it rolls. It also is a sign of a bird that has too high a impulse to roll and too low of a control mechanism. From your description, I'd label the bird as a bumper, but its the same weakness as a rolldown, not enough control.
To remedy it, feed it up, rest and fly again. You will need to be able to continue flying it regularly though. Or lock it up until such time as you can predictably fly regularly again. It is not a permanent fix, the bird is what it is and only time will reveal its true character. It is a fine line, we breed our birds to roll often and deep yet we dont want them to eat dirt ... Its a balance game.
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2348 posts
Jan 20, 2009
3:55 PM
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Great post Jon..
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Ralph
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fhtfire
1769 posts
Jan 20, 2009
3:56 PM
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Steve,
There are alot of questions to be answered here....I would assume that he is an old bird since you stated he was a teacher and a show off.....Now...
First lets talk about "bumping".....Bumping is an accident and usually happens EVERY NOW AND THEN...for example...I have XYZ bird coming into the roll as a young bird...has an accident....maybe once or twice....then never happens again..then you have an old bird that my be a little over the edge...again..happens maybe one time..or locked down for a period of time and when they take flight they get so excited..that they "bump"....a once or twice thing as a young bird is to me acceptable....An old bird after lock down or over the edge...acceptable...
Now if you have a chronic bumper 8 out of 10 times...it will bump coming out or landing...that is a chronic bumper and that is a cull...I dont care how it does it in the air...it is a cull plain and simple....Any bird that I have to throw up in the air is a cull...i have never had to throw a bird up in the air....they never make it that long..they are on the BBQ before that.
Now a roll down is plain and simple...lock up an 20-300' and dont stop...a true roll down is one that well..goes splat and you have clean up the mess....I usually get 2 or 3 a year....every time you breed anything...sooner or later you get a retard.....
Now...it is not uncommon for some strains to have birds fall apart after the year mark...what were good birds all of a sudden ...bam...they are crap....that is a cull...a bird that cant handle it....I have had a few do that....THEY WILL NEVER SEE THE STOCK LOFT....
A stockable bird is a bird that is just the most beautiful thing you ever see....day in and day out...it is rolling hard and fast....actually sets up before it rolls...snaps out clean most of the time...smooth as silk...and when it takes off and lands...it DOES NOT BUMP>>>>they land and then do the little Hitler walk on the kit box like it is a bad moe foe.....and looks like it was another day in the office....and they have that look...and the look I cant explain...it is a look of power, knowledge and damn near like it is a thinker...anyway....
So....Here is what I would do....First...feed that bird up all it can eat for a week......it may be just a brain fart from being locked down..or just not getting enough grub for the cold....One thing you have to remember is when it is Winter..FEED YOUR BIRDS>...I feed min mix all the time and all they can eat...when it is real cold....they fly like shit...and roll like shit...but I dont care...i want them healthy....feel the bird in the hand..if he feels light and feels bony in the chest...you need to give him some more grub....
Now....giving the little buger the benefit of the doubt and he may be a little weak...or just happy to fly....but if it continues...you get to witness what we all have....a good bird that falls apart....that is why you need to fly out your birds over a year at least...because that bird would have most likely bred more birds that fall apart.
One thing that is a good example of a good bird...is a little 06 Hen...that I had...I bred her for two years and she did not go in the direction that I wanted..excellent producer...but not the branch I wanted to follow....She had not flown in almost 2 years...put her in the B-team...she never bumped one time...and within a week of flying she was back in the A-team like she never missed a beat....
the ones that are afraid to cull are the ones that dont move forward....perfect example...having to had toss birds.....
Dont get me wrong...you can hand toss a bird if you have a feeling and dont want to risk a comp with a bird that is to far over the edge...but everytime or most of the time you open the door...HELL NO>
rock and ROLL
Paul
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0221
3 posts
Jan 20, 2009
4:05 PM
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Hi Paul,
You must have stocked that hen young. how early do Your birds develope?
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steves birds
14 posts
Jan 20, 2009
4:27 PM
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Jon and Paul.Both great posts filled with knowledge from experiance.You guys that have been at this for years can't imagine the questions that come to us new-bees daily and how much it helps the sport/ hobby accordingly to hear your experiances and support. I addopted thirty five birds from a friend this last summer that was killed in a lake accident knowing nothing of these birds. This site and Tony have been a wealth of knowledge in the quick learn process. Thanks to all of you. We all appreciate Your time and effort in your explanitions and insight.
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fhtfire
1770 posts
Jan 20, 2009
4:57 PM
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0221,
I stocked that hen at right around 14 months...she was hatched on Jan 3rd 06 and I pulled her in early March 07....bred her all of 07 and all of 08 and put her back in the team in December 08.....so the bird was not stocked early....
I usually fly my birds from 13-16 months before I stock them....they come into the roll about 3-7 months.....I did stock a cock at 11 months...this year.....He was a solid bird....and from my experience with my birds was developing like most of my stock birds...I really needed a cock and I was so scared a BOP was going to nail his ass...and second.....His mom quit laying and his dad died...and I wanted to keep that blood going in a cock.....he is 3/4 Mort and 1/4 Ruby...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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0221
4 posts
Jan 20, 2009
7:05 PM
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fhtfire,
I don't worry about a bird flying 2 years either. If that pigeon shows Me what I'm looking for and has been in the air long enoogh to show stability, I'll give it a try. I think if a person knows there family, You could stock one early, I'm not saying you did. only the breeder knows there family.
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Velo99
2043 posts
Jan 20, 2009
7:18 PM
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If hes rolling down hes not your best bird. Yes it is that simple. Easy part is he will cull himself.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Newbie 08
89 posts
Jan 20, 2009
7:19 PM
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Paul great post i respect your knowledge and input from your experience and plan on implementing your 13-16 month flying before I stock
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~~~~~~butch
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roller heaven
62 posts
Jan 21, 2009
4:07 AM
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I had a whole family 2 sons and 2 daughters first year they were good but the next year rolled down bumped and it got worst.So i locked them up for a week and then let them out.It was a desaster they were hiting everywhere. So i culled them all I dont have time to look for birds that have defects. It gets me mad when i wait for them to come home and they return the next day all banged up.
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J_Star
1840 posts
Jan 21, 2009
4:57 AM
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It is the excitment after a lock down that gets them to bump. If you start flying him regulary, he will correct himself. There is noting to worry about once you fly on a regular schedual. Good luck.
Jay
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2360 posts
Jan 21, 2009
7:42 AM
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Young birds that bump on occasion needs to be lock down one of the reason is to recuperate its like young kids joy riding and have an accident if they go back out they will kill them self. they need to take their license away for a while until they mature.,,so the reason for lock down on our birds is to hold them down till they mature a little they can't handle the roll mentally like I said in my earlier post I would retrain them if I can but never breed from them its a sign of weakness in their constitution which will pass on that trait if bred.. and trust me I had a lot of bumpers ....some say you can't save a roll down this bird I had always roll down from a hundred feet I waited for it to cull itself but obviously is was too slow to cull itself but I lock it up for a month to see what happen sure enough it didn't roll down again in fact it never roll again period imagine that.the BOP took care of that for me...but like I said these birds will never be stock..
----------Make it a habit to put in nothing but the best.thats why they say fly hard, cull hard and breed "Best to Best"..just don't let your best be a roll down a fly out bird a tail rider a non kitter Axel wing, a bird that is possess by the roll.. the list can go on but thats why I fell in love with these kind pigeons a pure athlete...its a challenge ......which needs alot of patience..and it takes years and I'm running out of time..
Ralph
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