lightin' loft
1 post
Jan 26, 2009
3:15 AM
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what.s considered too deep in flying competition-lightnin loft.
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0221
9 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:01 AM
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they can't be to deep, the deeper the better. As long as it gets back to the kitt. the first thing a roller has to be is a good kitt pigeon.
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Ty Coleman
531 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:09 AM
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You will get alot of opinions on this one. The 20 bird has quality and depth multipliers. I am working on building a 20 bird for the world cup and I am trying to select all 20 foot birds for it. In the 11 bird comp I selected my deepest birds I had.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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J_Star
1854 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:57 AM
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Too deep is when the bird can not return to the kit in the shortest time or don't return at all.
Jay
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c robbo
420 posts
Jan 26, 2009
5:10 AM
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you wont your birds to be about 25 to 35 foot deep for compitoin any bird that dose not kit gose in the bin. get your birds to kit and you are half way thair.
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brudahpete
411 posts
Jan 26, 2009
5:26 AM
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Welcome aboard lightnin'! J Star is right, kitting together & recovery is way better than a bunch of birds just flying around by themselves. First you have to get them to kit well & then work on the roll. You'll be adding & taking away from your kit a lot until you find the right chemistry.
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http://www.freewebs.com/brudahpete/
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spinningdemon
234 posts
Jan 26, 2009
7:56 AM
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Deep is goood it has to have style though to. For comp jay I feel is right on.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1568 posts
Jan 26, 2009
7:57 AM
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If they get so deep that they would be too deep for competition the quality is usually falling apart anyway.
A nice deep kit would be like Robbo said, 25-35 ft , if the breaks averaged that with proper quality it would be an awsome kit.
Here and there I will get birds stretching quite a bit deeper, but are usualy young and not in full control of the roll.
With my birds such birds either fall apart completly or get a good grasp on it and shorten up,the one's that get a handle on it the quality also picks up as they take control of the roll,some of these can become awsome birds once mature.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2009 7:59 AM
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spinningdemon
239 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:05 AM
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Have you ever had a young bird that started off real deep but as it matures it turns into a tumbler?
I have one here that started at about 5 months rolling and was rolling a bit to deep I thought for a young bird but now at about 8 months all it does is tumble? I have seen them get better control but not lose quality before.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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0221
10 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:11 AM
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did it lose quality? or just go back to flipping?
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pigeon pete
82 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:12 AM
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David, many 'stiffs' are birds that rolled as youngsters but didn't like it, they also may have bumped, and they then managed to get a tight control on the roll and end up as straight flyers or tumblers or very seldom. The last are the worst because they will often go a whole fly or several flys and then let one go as they are landing. When you hear of good rollers being bred from non-rollers, the non-rollers usually can roll. That is, the impulse is in them, but they are high control birds and they are choosing not to.
Pete
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
133 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:26 AM
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spinnindemon- was the bird in molt when you notes the flipping? Blood feathers could have been the problem
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pigeon pete
83 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:28 AM
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Hi Lightning,
I don't know what experience you have, but if you are a newish roller guy, I would be concentrating upon what the minimum standard of rolling style you will need, and the minimum depth needed, not the maximum, and get all your birds above that standard.
Once you can breed a kit that rolls with quality and kits well, and rolls deep enough to score, then you can work on breeding around the deeper birds to increase the overall depth of your kits.
A high percentage of the deeper stuff is deep because it has poor brakes and as a result the rolling quality suffers. If you already have birds rolling safely to 20ft plus in good form, and going in breaks, you are already there.
From what I have seen of the World cup, a lot of fanciers are flying 10-15 ft rollers.
I say this because I've seen judges give high depth points to 20 ft rollers, so those with no points or low points, I presume are rolling a lot less than this.
I let a hen bird go to another fancier recently because she will regularly roll 30ft - 40ft and most of my birds will only roll 20ft, which is plenty. She was a good roller but just didn't fit in with the kit.
You may say why not breed for all 35ft rollers, but that is a very difficult path to take if you want to put birds up that will kit well and roll in unison with good quality. It is something for me to aim for, but it will take a long time.
Pete
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
134 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:40 AM
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Pete- define poor breaks for these guys. Thanks JDA
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Scott
1569 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:54 AM
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Ty, I know that you are going to take this wrong but I'm going to put it out there anyway and maybe you will have something to think about that will help.
If they are too deep for a 20 bird kit you can pretty rest assured that the quality isn't there for any competition including the 11 bird.
A weak minded/physical bird "will" fight either through the roll or at least fight to come out of it,a bird with any glitch what so-ever either through the roll or coming out is a bird that shouldn't be scored regardless of the fly,and any judge worth his salt won't score them as you found out.
Scott
(You will get alot of opinions on this one. The 20 bird has quality and depth multipliers. I am working on building a 20 bird for the world cup and I am trying to select all 20 foot birds for it. In the 11 bird comp I selected my deepest birds I had.
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)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
532 posts
Jan 26, 2009
3:38 PM
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If they are too deep for a 20 bird kit you can pretty rest assured that the quality isn't there for any competition including the 11 bird.
Scott, I very much disagree with your OPINION. I have birds that will roll flawless in the 50-70 foot range with great speed,There are very few but I have a couple. If you had stated most birds that are to deep for the 20 I would agree.
A weak minded/physical bird "will" fight either through the roll or at least fight to come out of it,a bird with any glitch what so-ever either through the roll or coming out is a bird that shouldn't be scored regardless of the fly,and any judge worth his salt won't score them as you found out.
Again I would have agreed with most but not all. And I agree a bird with a glitch or flaw should not be scored. And as for what I found it was a joke.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2009 3:39 PM
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pigeon pete
85 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:08 PM
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JDA, sorry about that, I meant poor brakes.
i.e difficulty stopping at the depth that they feel comfortable with.
Pete
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Ty Coleman
536 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:15 PM
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Quality stands out. 1 year or 100 years in the hobby quality still stands out. Why do you insist on stiring the pot ? Is it boardom or do you just like causing problems ?
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1578 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:21 PM
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Yea,kinda bored, it's kinda like arguing breeding theory with my 5 year old grand daughter here.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
539 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:23 PM
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Did she realize what she was dealing with and give up hope also. Smile.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1580 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:28 PM
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No, she wore me down until I gave up LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1581 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:32 PM
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ok I'll go back and delete em
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
540 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:32 PM
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Go pick on Cliff for a while, I'm tired plus he is way smarter than I am !
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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Scott
1582 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:36 PM
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Screw that, his posts are too long and bullshit too deep,his posts makes me dizzy
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2384 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:37 PM
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lmao you a snap Scott.
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Ralph
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2009 4:37 PM
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speedball
128 posts
Jan 28, 2009
10:13 AM
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a bird bred to break, even if it is 60ft individualy, will shorten up in breaks if the birds have collectiveness and proper stop.
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fhtfire
1781 posts
Jan 28, 2009
6:39 PM
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This is a good question. It has been a myth that comp birds are not deep....the question is What is deep?
As for me...I like the deeper birds and I try to get deeper birds...If I have a good strong team that is making me happy..I like the birds to rage 25-45'. Scott is right...any deeper the birds lack the quality and the quality is where it is at. To me 45' is not a shallow bird at all. I have had birds on occasion hit a deeper roll and held it together...but they wont do it for the full 20...they will get worn out and the quality will suffer.
As far as deep birds not getting back to the kit...that too is a myth. A bird that does not pop out of a roll and head back to the kit like it has a rubber band around its leg is not in the team...period...and deep birds can do it. I think one needs to look at the whole ball of wax....if a bird is chasing the kit...then you need to look at the kit...because a real good comp kit with good chemistry will not leave the birds that dump....the birds that did not will hover and wait for the birds to return...or dump again when the birds do dump.
Just because a bird is taking a long time to get back does not mean that the kit cant continue to score...as long as the bird comes out of the roll clean and is heading back to the kit...(I mean beeline)..and the kit dumps again...it is scorable....I think some think that if the birds are still chasing a kit they loose points...as long as the birds come out of the roll and head back they are not out.
I like my birds on the deeper side and those that have seen my birds on a good day...know they are on the deeper side....Joe Urbon was over a couple months ago and he saw a bird hit close to 50' and he said it and the bird was tight as tight can get.....but will that bird hold it together the whole time if it continues to roll that deep...NO WAY...but the birds I pick for my team....have heart and character and when they start getting a little tired and pull the trigger...they will star rolling more in the 30' range.
Saying that a bird that is a 20 bird kit will not do it in an 11 bird ..come on....it is the other way around...a bird in an eleven bird kit rolling to deep will not be able to hold it together in a 20 bird...they will run out of gas...unless somebody has super pigeons and I have yet to see this type of pigeon and I have stood under quite a few kits. As a spectator and a judge...
Scott is totally right..about his posts....Quality is key and real deep birds may burn off a real deep one and hold it together here and there..but they will not be able to hold up to the activity of a hard working 20 bird kit. I know that Scott looks real deep into the making of a kit...and I have learned from him...you dont just throw a bunch of birds together....even real good birds...you have to have your team players...your sixth man....you triggers...etc etc....and pick the best birds..the smart birds..the birds that almost know they are striving for quality....and will shorten up the rolls to maintain the speed and power..the SMART birds...that is character...a bird that will pull the pin or jerk the chain and roll deep as hell with quality and depth but is smart enough to know to shorten up when fatigue sets in...and to have the birds that dont jerk the chain will hover or stay close to keep the team together....and those same birds dont bounce off the roof coming in...so you can have deep birds in a comp kit...if the WHOLE team is firing on all cyclinder...
I feel if more fliers paid attention to the whole team dynamics and not individual performers they will suceed...I have pulled VERY good birds out of team becuase they would ruin the dynamics...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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speedball
143 posts
Jan 29, 2009
1:54 AM
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and trust me a proper competition kit has serious dynamics. its like a complete engine at work.
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j .wanless
618 posts
Jan 29, 2009
11:17 AM
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hi all
chris well said + your 100pc right.no good flying 1 or 2 excesivly deep birds if the rest are all short to mediocar.either fly very deep birds as a kit of very deep birds.or leave the 1 or 2 of them out of your kit.as im afraid they will spoil your kit.i like deep birds but if they are really deep .i will fly them for my own pleasure not in a comp kit.
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norlan hollingate
1498 posts
Jan 29, 2009
12:55 PM
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i think most people cant tell the difference between
15 ft and 60 ft ?
its all a average
the best way i found was say your birds fly 50 or 100 meters from or above your loft
guage the hight of your house from floor to top [chimney]
mine is 32 feet
do 50 then 100 large strides from your property and see how it looks at them distances
then u can work wat depth ur birds are doing
then most people will agree not many know the difference between 15 - to 60 ft
[dont walk through your neighbours gardens they get upset] good luck norman
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Flipmode
348 posts
Jan 30, 2009
9:19 PM
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The deeper, the better! A nice deep kit breaking at a steady pace is far more enjoyable to watch than a short frequent kit. The kit might not win a comp. but is more exciting to watch.
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lightin' loft
4 posts
Jan 30, 2009
9:40 PM
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I never flew a comp kit,but i've questioned various people about this, and noticed that shorter birds seem to be the kits of choice.I've raised rollers for long time (off and on),but i always enjoyed clean deep roll.I believe that truly most rollermen appreciate clean deep roll!.I'm again new to the competition game,so i might be wrong?.-lightnin
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Flipmode
349 posts
Jan 30, 2009
9:54 PM
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Im telling you there is nothing better to watch than a nice big break with birds ripping clean at 40 feet+. You will get chills! The downside is that its really hard for them to do it 3 & 4 times a minute for 20 minutes straight. You can fly a short(10ft), frequent(3-4 times a minute) kit and score over 1000 points in a comp. but you wont enjoy them the same.
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lightin' loft
5 posts
Jan 30, 2009
10:18 PM
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What's up Flip.I appreciate your answers.I might just enjoy tying to attain such athletes.lol(also serious!).-lightnin
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Spin City USA
175 posts
Jan 31, 2009
1:20 AM
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Flip,I am the same, win lose or draw I fly what I like and I like them deep
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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