spinningdemon
233 posts
Jan 26, 2009
7:54 AM
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Greetings all,
I know this is a roller site but I am hoping some of you may have an interest.
Some of us are starting a society to help preserve the West of England Flying Tumbler as a performance breed. The breed has lost most of its flying ability since becoming one of the more popular show breeds. It is quickly becoming a tumbler only by name and we would love to curve that.
If you or if you know someone breeding the West of England Flying Tumbler or has an interest in them please have them contact me.
Thank you,
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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steve-moua
15 posts
Jan 26, 2009
9:41 PM
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i have interest in them. i had 4 pairs when i was 15 yrs old. unfortunately those were show types that couldnt fly if their life depended on it. Had them in an open loft, come and go style loft. They all got hawked during migratory season. I've been looking around for them and couldnt find any locally so i picked up a pair competition Parlor Tumbler/Rollers a week ago.
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PREP Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2009 9:41 PM
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fresnobirdman
469 posts
Jan 26, 2009
10:01 PM
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so these birds cant fly even though they have wings?
-fou
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steve-moua
16 posts
Jan 26, 2009
10:37 PM
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The West could fly, just not as fast and high. which makes them easy targets. i had ash balds, flashy colors are eye catchy.
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PREP Lofts
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ICEMAN710
626 posts
Jan 27, 2009
2:11 AM
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try thinking outside the box fou, penguins, ostriches and emus have wings and dont fly. anyways they can fly but not as they used to. Through decades of development, the breed has been selectivley bred for show and less value on its performance attributes.
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Gary
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J_Star
1857 posts
Jan 27, 2009
4:59 AM
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Brian McCormek breeds them and he has some excellent Westies. I don't know if he will part of any of his. He would be your source of some good information.
Jay
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2009 5:00 AM
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spinningdemon
241 posts
Jan 27, 2009
6:37 AM
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Thanks guys,
I have seen Brians birds very pretty birds of the show variety.
I have tried many show room culls and have not had good luck with them. I have a few pair of birds that fly high and do tumble I have placed them all in breeding pens hoping to raise some more.
There are many performing breeds that are just rollers or tumblers by name as they make their way from great fliers to world class feather puffs.
I would not fault someone that can only breed show birds we need all of the pigeon breeders we can get it is becoming a rare hobby in itself. I learned most about the pigeon at fairs and shows so they do have there good points as well.
Please if you have an interest in preserving the west of england flying tumbler let me know.
Steve-moua please send me your e-mail to dcurneal@hotmail.com
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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steve-moua
17 posts
Jan 27, 2009
2:57 PM
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emailed you David
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PREP Lofts
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ROBERT RODRIGUEZ
42 posts
Jan 27, 2009
6:40 PM
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DAVID I JUST EMAIL YOU HOPE U GOT IT
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2391 posts
Jan 27, 2009
8:10 PM
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Robert email me I want to ask you something...
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Ralph
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sundance
1029 posts
Jan 27, 2009
8:34 PM
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David, I sent a message yesterday as well. Let me know if you got it. I had some of the flying wests as a kid, and they done real well, best as I remember.
We all had either real bad rollers or real good wests. none of us kids knew any more about them than we seen right there in our neighborhood. I`m guessing now that the rollers we had were not that good because the wests kept up with them for the most part performance wise.LOL
Wish I had some of them now.. the wests that is..
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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ROBERT RODRIGUEZ
43 posts
Jan 27, 2009
9:05 PM
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PR ROLLERS RALPH HERE MY EMAIL FLACO.CLASSIFIED.ELA@HOTMAIL.COM
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topnotch uk
129 posts
Jan 28, 2009
9:31 AM
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you can get them westies from were i come from lads 2a penny in england thay are not worth a (SHIT) over here you should thank your lucky stars thay are here leave well aloan lollllllllllllll (SHYTE)
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spinningdemon
253 posts
Jan 29, 2009
5:51 AM
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Thanks guys for your responses,
Topnotch sounds like you dislike the wefts thats fine but you said you knew some folks in your neck of the world that had the West of England Flying Tumbler if you could get me intouch with them that would be great.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Scott
1594 posts
Jan 29, 2009
8:25 AM
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Dave, just curious , but why do you even want to fly such birds ?
You do understand that they have been crossbred every which way and are what is being shown today even the same bird as the originals ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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spinningdemon
255 posts
Jan 29, 2009
9:18 AM
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Scott, I like the look of them, I have fond memories of the ones I had before, I do not care much about the "Pure breed thing" I know that a lot of them have been crossed around with everything you can dream of. I think all performing breeds should be preserved as a performance breed and flown. I have no interest in showing them or with what people show now. I do have stock that has come from a person that has not crossed in anything since the 40's though.And I guess I got a wild hair up my ---- But anyway I am getting a lot of folks that share the same things I have a list of about 20 guys/gals that want to fly them. Some for the high flying abilities some for the action etc but I think that thier are enough folks to get a small society together and have some fun.
There are 4 types of performance and that is because of the different folks breeding for different things wich is there deal. From what I have learned the weft or west of england flying tumbler is a breed that has been around for about 400 years it is one that some beleive was used to create our beloved birmingham. They were used to add flying time to the over active rollers. The weft was a high flier of about a 4 hour duration however flying comps were mostly done on the first 30 minits of flying time and scored on turns and not on flight length. ( I found no record of comps similiar to tipplers though some believe they were also done that way. ) They are not a deep spinner (altough some of the strains today have some good spin to them I have recieved reports of some that need to be careful because a roll down or two are created.)but a singel to triple tumbler. The ones I had before did tumbles, spins, dives and cork screws I have not been able to find anyone with a strain like them since I sold mine.
So Scott to answear your question, Hell I just like them.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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topnotch uk
153 posts
Jan 29, 2009
10:39 AM
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spinningdemon i will ask around for you david yours in sport ken
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BA Rollers
170 posts
Jan 29, 2009
11:48 AM
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David, where did you come up with the 400 year thing? The Wests were part of the second half of the 1800s to first quarter 1900s era that was the evolutionary period of flying tumblers in the UK. Tipplers, Birmingham Rollers and Wests, hell even the Maggies all stem from one general breeding concept and vast genetic pool. I'm sure you've seen the recent pictures posted of Wests from the turn of the century. They are identical in every way shape and form to a BR we are familiar with today. Some of Bells in the teens and '20s were grouse legged. The Wests were the culmination of development of ideas built outward from flying tumblers in general of that era. What you have from that era and gene pool is the name Tipplers which were pigeons that were sought to fly extremely long periods of time and not tumble. A West was bred to fly for long periods of time, and tumble on the way up and one the way down. Rollers were asked to fly a nominal amount of time and roll (not tumble). Maggies were bred to fly low and for their uncanny ability for concert performance. 400 years ago there was no West, BR or any other that stems from that melting pot. There were the breeds that were used in the development, one of which was the Cumulet which is also a part descendant of the modern racing homer (or so I have read). Tumblers tumble. Rollers roll. Wests are not supposed to roll. If they roll like a roller, they have been crossed with a roller. A West has a distinct tumbling ability that sets it apart from many to most tumbling breeds. They will do a pop-glide with their wings held upwards, then flip on a fall, sometimes two or three times in a row, and in some cases follow with a tail ride. See this and you will see that it is different than the flip or tumble that a roller does.
Scott, the baldheads today in most cases are as pure to the origins of the original imports as you will ever find. Dudly Shoemaker imported birds in the early 1930s-40s I believe it was and they are as pure to the blood as there is in this country, and they look identical to the baldheads and mottles we have today.
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2009 11:51 AM
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spinningdemon
257 posts
Jan 29, 2009
12:50 PM
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Ba Rollers, I got the 400 year thing by using my fat fingers to type, 200 years is what I wanted to type, sorry and thanks for bringing that to my attention.
The tumble up and tumble down thing is only one type of perfromance that I have heard of.
I have heard of,
1-Tumble up tumble down
2-Tumble all the time to frequent to kit or even fly for more then an hour
3-Tumble, roll, dive and cork screw rolls
4-Spin and roll like a roller
I have also folks that raise birds that fly and fly with very little or no tumble so i guess I have heard of 5
With that large of a varity I feel we need to get a group together and try to set some goals try to get this variety back in the air. Get a group of folks that want to help.
You told me before that you had success with flying show culls I still want to learn more about that. Like I told you it did not work for me with several different families and tries. I would like to speak to some of the folks that have had success that way.
The Shoemaker birds I hear are of the tumble up tumble down variety however one guy working with this group of birds has reported some that roll wich he culls? I think he lives in LA. I believe that their maybe lines that have been kept pure with no crosses they are just hard to find and get to my location with funds being low right now. But I would have to say most of the families of weft's have been crossed to make it a better show breed and less of a performing breed.
Thank you, Ba for your remarks and I hope to learn more from you later.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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steve-moua
24 posts
Jan 29, 2009
7:28 PM
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a little off topic from where you guys are headed, but the ones i got before were from a guy named "Norman Geihl" he was from a little town called Cottonwood, MN. he was also a Master Breeder in the NPA in 1997 after doing a little research on him.
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silent187
338 posts
Jan 30, 2009
1:39 PM
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...
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spinningdemon
369 posts
Feb 25, 2009
9:42 AM
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Steve, do you have contact info for Norman Geihl ?
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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KATCHER
87 posts
Feb 26, 2009
12:47 AM
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you have allot on your plate david!!! good luck!!
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spinningdemon
372 posts
Feb 26, 2009
8:42 AM
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Katcher, I do have a bunch on the plate but I am scrapping a bunch off. LOL I have always been interested in the performance breeds and I know now is the time to start preserving some, as most are losing there ability to perform.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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ezeedad
932 posts
Feb 26, 2009
9:01 PM
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David,
About 25 years ago or so I met a couple guys at the Pageant of Pigeons, I believe they were from Utah, who told me that they had a flying West of England club there. Their birds were small and very roller-like in appearance. It was a long time ago, but I believe there must be some flying West breeders there..
Paul Gomez
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Alohazona
567 posts
Feb 26, 2009
11:09 PM
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David,
You might want to check with Chuck Zeller.I think he said that the origial competion badges that Pensom brought in[that created all the hoopla] were clean legged West's.Anyway I think he is into West's and can point you in the right direction...Aloha,Todd
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spinningdemon
376 posts
Feb 28, 2009
9:01 AM
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Chuck is a great guy, I have spock with him several times and got some great info etc. He is one that has inspired me to preserve this great breed as a flier.
The comp badges are an all together different breed. Very cool birds my friend Tom Monson has some and they are neat birds. I do not know if Tom flies them or not.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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3757
1190 posts
Feb 28, 2009
9:57 AM
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Scott - I agree with the show aspect but there were and are many guys in the East coast who did not cross the birds.
Dave - This is a wonderful idea. I think anyone that wants to preserve a breed is doing the next generation a service.
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pat66
298 posts
Feb 28, 2009
11:01 AM
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Dave, The East Coast Roller Association club meeting is the end of the month, I will ask the guys for info and to do a little searching for you!
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Pat
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