nicksiders
3267 posts
Feb 22, 2009
8:09 PM
|
Andelusion?
Indigo?
These are nest mates with the mother being a recessive red spangle and the father being black with white markings. I think I got a mut in the wood pile.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
birdman
695 posts
Feb 22, 2009
8:44 PM
|
Nick, for what it's worth I don't think so.
|
Werstler
90 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:16 PM
|
My guess is a black check bird with a lot of bronze factor showing.
|
nicksiders
3268 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:19 PM
|
Russ,
You don't think so what? They are not indigo or andelusion....or I got a mut in the wood pile?
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
348 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:33 PM
|
----------
Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Nick,
Looks like something popped up...I would say yes both indigo and andalusion.....Just be happy the infamous pink pigeon has not shown up...LOL
|
gotspin7
2252 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:34 PM
|
Nick, that is not indigo or andelusion. The first bird is a kite. The second I am not to sure, but our color experts will let you know for sure bro. Hey good luck!
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
349 posts
Feb 22, 2009
9:37 PM
|
----------
Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Actually Nick they look more spread to me...What are they exactly?
|
nicksiders
3269 posts
Feb 22, 2009
10:06 PM
|
Mike,
I have never had these spreads in my lofts after about 50 years or so. I pick some birds out of the air that were tremendous. A recessive red spangle hen and a black with white markings cock bird spun these off. They are very young and I am seeking some opinions from those who are into color genetics. Maybe when they go through the first molt I will have a better idea. They are basically Jacs.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
JMUrbon
638 posts
Feb 22, 2009
10:27 PM
|
Nick I would say you have a check kite. This comes from the red spangle which is likely rec red. the other if I had to guess on it I would say a tort. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://w rww.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
birdman
696 posts
Feb 22, 2009
10:29 PM
|
Nick, I don't think you have Indigo. Bronze and grizzle maybe? They will look different when they moult.
|
nicksiders
3270 posts
Feb 23, 2009
6:59 AM
|
I don't want to sound like a fool and close minded, but I am somewhat releaved that I don't have indigo and andelusion.....I know that sounds somewhat stupid and short sited, but that is just me. I can go with kite and bronze and feel good.
Brian McCormick - can you confirm any of this?
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
harrison
221 posts
Feb 23, 2009
7:10 AM
|
Hi. I would also call the 2nd a tottershell. Thats the name that I have been brought up on. And the second looks to me like a blue check with some brown coming off the guills. Yours in roll Harrison uk. Please dont guote me on this as I am not a (COLOR EXCPERT)lol.
|
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
309 posts
Feb 23, 2009
7:16 AM
|
Nick,
I am relatively certain that the first one is not an Andy but rather a blue check showing kite. The second one is a mystery to me. I hve never seen indigo manifest itself in that manner. Maybe BMC or someone can shed more light on it.
----------
Keep em Spinning
Joe
|
DeepSpinLofts
1182 posts
Feb 23, 2009
8:58 AM
|
Hmm.... interesting Nick. You stated that you picked some birds out of the air that were tremendous. That's the general master-plan for all of us.
A mut? What's that?
Just a reminder folks... we must breed strictly for performance with plumage color as a non-conciliatory factor.
NOTE: Below are some excerpts from William Hyla Pensom.
"It is certain that colors and markings cannot be cultivated without a decided loss in the quality of deep spinning". -- W.H. Pensom
...also
"To clarify my findings, so far as color goes, I refer to reds, yellows and whites and combinations of the same... as soft colors... and denoting weakness of character as well. Blue checkers, red checkers and duns, I call the hard colors and which I believe are indicative of stronger character. It is among these latter colored birds we find the most stabilized spinners, whereas among the soft colors we find the unstable spinner." -- W.H. Pensom
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
350 posts
Feb 23, 2009
10:29 AM
|
----------
Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Nick,
I do have a bird similar to the second one. He looked to be a brown check white flight until he molted. The bird I have has indigo in his background. On a side note this bird is one of the better ones I am flying right now.
|
Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
351 posts
Feb 23, 2009
10:33 AM
|
----------
Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Indigo is a color modifier found in many pigeon breeds. Evidence indicates it originally came from the middle east. Even today, many breeds from that area show evidence of it in their phenotype. However, because indigo has varying expression depending up the base color, it wasn’t described as something genetically different until the mid-thirties. Wendell Levi and Willard F. Hollander, in unison, worked out the genetics of indigo. I’m not going to go into the now sixty year old history, but if you’re interested this effort is describe in Levi’s book, The Pigeon. Suffice it to say, though, that indigo was found to be non-sex linked dominant in its inheritance. It is not quite a simple dominant, however, and this is why it often goes unrecognized even in racing homers, where I’ve seen it in direct imports from top Belgian lofts. Credit to Frank Mosca...
|
nicksiders
3271 posts
Feb 23, 2009
11:22 AM
|
Marcus,
I picked a whole bunch out of the air off the same breeder and I am in the process of replacing the family that I did have. I wasted 6 years trying to make chicken soup out of chicken shit. The birds I am now using to replace my family are coming from the same stock that the best two kits I have seen came from. Now I got to see if I am the loft manager that I think I am. Next year I should be flying my new family and like they say "the proof is in the pudding". Competition will tell me if I am that manager.
Nick
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
BA Rollers
192 posts
Feb 23, 2009
12:04 PM
|
The top bird is just your run of the mill blue check showing some faint bronze in the flights like more than half the blue checks on the planet do, particularly in rollers. It usually is an indication the bird had a recessive red parent, but that is not always accurate. That bird is NOT a kite. Kites must exhibit visible bronze on the shield at minimum be be considered a Kite.
The second photo is a blue t-pattern expressing kite bronze, grizzle and the genes for white flight. It will molt out completely different. They usually go either significantly darker (less bronze, less grizzle) or they can go very light (more grizzle and bronze and less blue base). Genetically this is a what is referred to as a tortiseshell. The bird is not indigo.
|
nicksiders
3272 posts
Feb 23, 2009
2:22 PM
|
Thanks Brian...............appreciated
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
black_hawk_down
185 posts
Feb 24, 2009
12:25 PM
|
hey nicksiders can i ask what was wrong with your family of birds; can you elaborate more on it? -joe v.
|
nicksiders
3275 posts
Feb 24, 2009
1:56 PM
|
joe v.,
They basically were high flying stiffs. They did not have the frequency that I grew to like. I tried feeding and breeding the frequency into them, but they still fell short of what I was wanting. They also lacked the consistancy that I desired. There were days they could absolutely turn it on and then with no or negligable change they would stiffen up on me. I spent six years with them and I felt if I could not do it in 6 years it was either me or them that was the problem. In a couple of years we will find out(LOL). I found myself very loyal to my birds.....kinda that feeling you have with pets; no matter how duefy they are you still hold them close. It took a close friend to tell me that I either got to decide to compete or raise pets. I decided to compete.............for I have a dog and a couple of cats and they will satisfy the need for a pet(LOL).
Even when I made the comittment to change my family over I found myself holding on to my "favorites". I finally got all of my favorites gone. Gave them away to another breeder in Arkansas.....and he will probably kick my ass with 'em(LOL)
The birds that I will be competing with this year will still be the old family; the new family will not be old enough to compete this year.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2009 2:01 PM
|
Colors101
1 post
Feb 24, 2009
4:40 PM
|
Is it possible to provide pictures of the parents to the second picture? You stated that the bird's parents are a Recessive Red Spangle and a Black. Recessive Red can mask any and everything including Indigo, it can also express certain factors as Reduced and Opal, which we can visually see.
I do not believe that the bird is simply Bronze. The black lacing on every tip of feather on the wing is indicative of another gene. Exactly what, I'm not sure. If you have any information on the lineage of the Recessive Red Spangle - most likely a Rec. Red Mottle or Grizzle, that information would be helpful in accurately knowing what the offspring in question is.
Thanks,
Colors
|
Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
315 posts
Feb 24, 2009
6:30 PM
|
Colors, could this bird be carrying ember? Possibly brought in by the Red Spangle. If it is, it will look a lot different after the baby molt.
----------
Keep em Spinning
Joe
|
Colors101
2 posts
Feb 24, 2009
8:02 PM
|
Sunfower,
Good input! Indeed it would would look different after the molt, but Ember would be something the breeder would be compeletly aware of, and would most definately have to be breeding "for". I wouldn't suspect someone to post a bird's picture from that particular color project line and not know what it is. The coordination of the genes to accomplish it takes a person well versed "in pigeon genetics", and wouldn't simply pop up in someones loft. That is unless, an individual was working with a stock that was most recently crossed with a bird expressing Ember. For example an Oriental Roller.
Thanks!
Colors
|
RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2543 posts
Feb 28, 2009
6:03 AM
|
Nice Jacs............
----------
RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
|
Colors101
9 posts
Feb 28, 2009
2:07 PM
|
Because I have knowledge about breeding rollers for performance doesn't make me professional spinner breeder, nor does having knowledge about genetics make me a color breeder. Very profound indeed.
|
gotspin7
2259 posts
Feb 28, 2009
5:18 PM
|
SappAttack, slow down brother no need to get loud we are all grown ups here. Hey I appreciate the offer, but I have what I need here in Van Buren Arkansas bro.Hey will you make the picnic this year, I would love to talk pigeon with you. ---------- Sal Ortiz
|
nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3282 posts
Feb 28, 2009
5:34 PM
|
I think Sal has enough good birds(LOL)
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Electric-man
2258 posts
Feb 28, 2009
5:46 PM
|
Oh, by tha way, if you want some good birds I'll send ya some! How bout that!
Better check Sal's fly record before you throw that one out there! His birds are kicking ass the last few years!
Sal has put more into promotng the hobby than most anyone I know! He is a great guy and a great friend! I will say, he doesn't always sugar coat things, but he does always mean well!
We all need to remember that these damn computers are hard to read personalities and emotions! I am including myself here!
----------
Val
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3135 posts
Feb 28, 2009
7:14 PM
|
Hey Sal, Colors101 is doing me a favor by helping those who have questions about color and their birds. He is not here to debate you or anyone else regarding color and performance. So do me a favor and let him do his job. If he wants to provide his name that is up to him.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
gotspin7
2262 posts
Feb 28, 2009
7:19 PM
|
I probably do, but nothing really suprises me anymore. Let me guess they also live in Van Buren Arkansas and if that is them, hell I can't wait to see them again. I have seen them a few times but not to talk about the birds.
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
gotspin7
2263 posts
Feb 28, 2009
7:20 PM
|
Tony, you got it. Hey you should of said something from the get go.
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3136 posts
Feb 28, 2009
7:23 PM
|
Yeah, I been pretty busy. Just got some time right now. I told Colors101 I got his back, so everyone's gotta give him room to help me out.. thanks for understanding Sal.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
spinningdemon
381 posts
Mar 03, 2009
4:45 AM
|
Tony thanks for getting color101's back. I have tried to help answer questions, and would just get my but kicked in.
----------
David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
|
