George R.
1403 posts
Mar 03, 2009
8:56 AM
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This hen won the 2001 California Classic. she beat 299 pigeons in the AIR...
She was bred by Elmore Wade out of Danny Horners Jaconette stock.
She sold for $800.00 in the auction after the fly.
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Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2009 9:00 AM
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Hector Coya
435 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:02 AM
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To me a bird you can call a Champion, has to have competed in some fly against another bird and won,so yes she must be a Champion,
I dont like when people call a bird a Champion just becouse they realy like the bird.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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spinningdemon
386 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:03 AM
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Very nice pigeon thats for sure! Did she breed some good ones?
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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yang501424
227 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:18 AM
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Well I think a champion will have to meet the standard of a champion people have set aside. A champion shouldn't be rank on how many birds it has beaten or flys won because those birds who knows maybe culls. Im not saying that, that bird isn't a champion but that we shouldn't call a bird champion just by beating other birds or flys won.
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Good Game Loft
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Hector Coya
436 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:31 AM
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Yang
what are you talking about,
The winner of any competition like NASCAR or Boxing,or any form of competition is a true Champion, There is people that whant to call there pigeon a Champion without ever copeting individually agains any other.
Now that bird is a Champion becouse if you knew how tuff the California Classic was you whould know its a big Copetition..
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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LittleJohn
22 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:36 AM
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nope she's not a champion,....better just send her my way and I'll take care of her for ya.
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fhtfire
1842 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:45 AM
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I really really like that bird.....I only comment on a photo if I really like it and man that bird just makes me want to pick it up and hold it....LOL>...Very nice
rock and ROLL
Paul
To me a true Champion is the bird that holds it together year after year in the team...is the backbone of the team...is perfect in every way possible and then throws the gold nuggets in the stock loft....to me if a bird does not hit the stock loft to...no cigar..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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harrison
305 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:01 AM
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nice bird.
If I win a compatishion does that mean that every bird in the winning kit is a champion? The answer is no of course. Sorry mate I think you have a top bird and would have bread plenty out of her . But in What i excpect a (true champion roller) to be that hasnt got the full package. What i mean by that is you havent said she is a established breeder of quality and proven birds. good look for 09 and get her pumping them out. Yours in roll harrison, uk ,hull,
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harrison
306 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:12 AM
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If you could put her up in the sky tomorro and win the (calafonia classic) hands up then maybe you have a champ on your hands. Like we hear every one saying (EVERYONE HAS A CHANCE AT WINNING A FLY) how many newbies win comps with look on there side? and then you dont here of them again? (I WOULD SAY WINNING IT TWICE IS MORE THAN LOOK.) just my shout on things, Harrison uk, .so (PUT HER UP AND SHUT US UP) lol.
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Hector Coya
437 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:13 AM
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Harrison
You dont get it.
She was picked out alone from the California Classic Competition,meening out of a kit ouf 20 that everone sent birds to,she was picked as the best in the kit.being that its a competition ther will be a Champion,right..
No we dont know if she is a good producer of the same,but that was not the competition, the competition was to find the best in the kit made of many peoples birds and she won..
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2009 10:13 AM
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Ldogxxx
14 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:32 AM
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Because this bird won, it caused me to buy 5 pairs from Mr. Wade. They were tightly bred. He even gave me the foudation cock (which was infertile of course). Bred them for 4 years. Switched matings around and even crossed them out. some of the crosses were better. But no bird that I raised was a champion IMO and I bred many. They did not have the velocity and frequency IMHO. I gave them all away. Took a big loss! Lesson learned: Never assume that just because a bird wins in a contest like the Classics ( I did not see the bird spin) that the family is capable of producing more like it. I hope that bird did wonders for the new owner seeing that he/she spent so much!
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"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the
illusion of knowledge."
Bayani
EZ Rollers (www.wacadoo.com)
B-Square Lofts
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harrison
307 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:47 AM
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thank you hector. ok now I will think it over again.
yes she won the comp so that makes her a winner' but when people look into a (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) they are looking for, A bird that as at least been in a winning kit, top A team bird,Top in the breeding pen,and a top quality stock bird. If it has won any comps then in my eyes its on its way to becoming a (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER). just my view on the meaning (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) harrison uk hull.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2592 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:58 AM
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that was a competition and a winner is call a champion than that's what it is.if you have a competition and your bird beats 299 birds I know those birds can't be bums in the Classic well that bird own its title. now what you guys are talking about producing the same or better well that's another ball game to me I would look at my birds and says this bird rolls 2 or 3 times a minute and she rolls with good depth than shorten when coming in low ...H or A style roller ..has frequency and velocity ..produces birds like himself or herself or better birds that is what I call a champion in my kitbox and compete with the best..
anyway that is one helluva birds good luck with it..
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If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2009 11:01 AM
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Ldogxxx
15 posts
Mar 03, 2009
11:19 AM
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Oh and to answer the question, it IS a champiom! Champion of the California Classics for 2001 just as Yang had posted!
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"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the
illusion of knowledge."
Bayani
EZ Rollers (www.wacadoo.com)
B-Square Lofts
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harrison
308 posts
Mar 03, 2009
12:21 PM
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ok. sorry I may have over lookd it. of couurs a winner is a champ. But in my eyes she isnt a (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) In my shed I have 3 birds that was in the HULL ROLLER PIGEON CLUB old bird fly winning team. I DO NOT CLASS THEM AS (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLERS).
you new that she was a champion as she won the fly.
But you was getting at his she a (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) and like I said (I do not think she his.)
good look for 09.yours in roll harrison uk. hull.
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Bill C
260 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:06 PM
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I like the way this bird looks to me, like it is stoned or spaced out look. Maybe Pensom called it expression, I call it spaced out. Kind of like getting cought with your hand in the cookie jar, look. It does look like it wants to go rip it up in the sky.
Bayani, I agree with you. Pensom wanted the breeders not the champion. Many things he said still hold true today and you just proved it. I wonder how it is doing for the guy who bought it.
George do you know anything about the mating which the bird came from??? That would be interesting. Cross or line bred or inbreeding? Bill C
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pigeon pete
185 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:28 PM
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Is this California Classic a competition between 300 top rollers, or is it a futurity fly where the competitors send in squeekers for traning and the winner is the pick of the bunch?. If the first, then it's got to be a very good roller, if the second then it could still be a top roller, but it could also be the best of an average crop.
It certainly looks like a good roller, and it was a champion price! LOL
To put it in perspective, we have around 1000 birds flying in the All England Old bird fly.
These are not unproven babies, they have been flown one season at least and then selected to go forward to the old bird team. They may not all be high quality, but they should all roll to a decent standard if they are in an Old bird fly. The best roller in the competition is picked out for an award, (the Rose Bowl). Most fanciers would call it 'their Champion' roller because it won the champion trophy.
But, if you asked if it is a true champion, you would be suprised at how many will say they havn't got a true champoin and the rose bowl winner wasn't or isn't their best bird.
Pete.
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Hector Coya
438 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:30 PM
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i looked up the word champion,and this is what i got
Noun
in games, competitions etc, a competitor who has defeated all others
Example: this year's golf champion; (also adjective) a champion boxer
,,
nowhere dose it say that a Champion should produce itself or better..
You can call your bird anything at all,but if its never competed individually,its not a CHAMPION..
Ive seen Pedegrees from an oldtimer that almost every bird on there said Champion,and i ask Champion of what?
----------Hector Coya-SGVS
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2009 1:37 PM
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yang501424
229 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:34 PM
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Lets go back to George's question. I think he meant is this bird a true champion not meaning champion of the CC 2001 because he already know that answer. Hes not asking a question he just answer.
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Good Game Loft
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2009 1:35 PM
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Hector Coya
439 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:39 PM
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Look up the word True,,
If its not a TRUE Champion then your saying it didnt win the Classic..
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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yang501424
230 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:42 PM
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Is that bird as good as the 514 hen? Because I suppose we all can agree that 514 was a champion. If it doesn't have what the 514 have then its not a true champion. Simple as that.
That bird is nothing more then a champion of 2001 CC. We cant call this bird a plain champion title but champion "OF" 2001 CC.
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Good Game Loft
Last Edited by on Mar 03, 2009 2:02 PM
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yang501424
231 posts
Mar 03, 2009
1:48 PM
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What is a champion in the air worth if it can not produce in the pen?
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Good Game Loft
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2595 posts
Mar 03, 2009
3:34 PM
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BA Rollers That is exactly what I'm trying to say.."You guys are discussing two different things here".
Pete good post..."Is this California Classic a competition between 300 top rollers, or is it a futurity fly where the competitors send in squeekers for traning and the winner is the pick of the bunch?. If the first, then it's got to be a very good roller, if the second then it could still be a top roller, but it could also be the best of an average crop.
It certainly looks like a good roller, and it was a champion price! LOL
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If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
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Andy_her
69 posts
Mar 03, 2009
4:02 PM
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This bird is a champ...Won in competition...
The question to ask is can this bird produce or become a foundation breeder?
Good luck to who ever bought this bird...
Good win not alot of people can win out of 300 rollers...
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Ldogxxx
17 posts
Mar 03, 2009
6:34 PM
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Bill C - If this bird is the same as what I bought from Wade (and it does look related) it is out of the Horner strain.
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"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the
illusion of knowledge."
Bayani
EZ Rollers (www.wacadoo.com)
B-Square Lofts
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bigwilly
841 posts
Mar 03, 2009
6:44 PM
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Looks like she has major speed
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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Norm_Knox
280 posts
Mar 03, 2009
7:59 PM
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It is my opinion that a champion in air HAS to be a champion in the breding pen. If its not than it is just another GREAT kit bird... Just my two cents!!!
Norm
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N/A Loft
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donnie james
287 posts
Mar 03, 2009
8:27 PM
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she look nice but i wouldn't pay that price for her and i want to wish who ever brought her all the best with her....................donny james
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JMUrbon
659 posts
Mar 03, 2009
8:41 PM
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Just like the NBA or NFL or the National league baseball. If you win the championship you are and will always be the champion of that year. This bird is no doubt a great bird to win the classic. Only the man who baught this bird can answer the question as to whether she is a champion in his eyes now though. Myself I could care less. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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KATCHER
112 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:05 PM
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i agree JOE!!
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Spin City USA
185 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:29 PM
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Why do people get hung up on words. I know they mean thing and they convey a message. Webster defines them but the interpetation is in the eye of the viewer.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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George R.
1404 posts
Mar 03, 2009
9:37 PM
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"Myself I could care less. Joe"
Joe sorry if I irratated you by asking if this Hen is a Champion.
according to some people's way of thinking then Muhhamed Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foremen , Roberto Duran, Sugar Ray leonard, ETC. were not Champion's because they never PRODUCED a Champion SON .
anyway I would like to thank alll those that responeded to this post.
good luck
george
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macsrollers
33 posts
Mar 03, 2009
10:26 PM
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Everyone has a different interpertation of champion. This bird is a true champion of the 2001 Calfornia Classic as Mr. Yang posted. Is it a champion producer? Only the person who bred her can say. The word champion is used way to easily in this hobby in my opinion. I remember Frank Lavin stating that he may have bred only one or two champions in his lifetime- so far, and he is known to have some of the closest 514 blood around. In Tom Hatcher's book Last of the Great and the Next Generation he list pages and pages of his birds as champions. A champion is in the mind of the beholder. I hope we all breed some at some point in our time with rollers. Sincerely, Don M.
The man who wants to be liked by all(that love rollers of course) Inside joke for a few of my friends!
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JMUrbon
660 posts
Mar 03, 2009
11:07 PM
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George you are misreading me here. I dont mean that at all what I mean by that is my opinion really doesnt matter but rather that the only opinion that matters is the owner of the bird. My opinion is as I wrote in my previous post. That bird is the 2001 California Classic champion. Nothing more until proven. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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pigeon pete
186 posts
Mar 04, 2009
4:21 AM
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Lets stop playing with words and dictionarys.
Most roller fanciers knows what we mean by a champion, and it is related firstly to it's performance.
i.e, A champion in the air, and is not neccesarily to do with winning anything.
If Mohamad Ali was just a boxer in the U.S team, rather than an individual world champion, he could still be regarded as a champ by virtue of his skill.
It may not fit the dictionary definition, but we all know it.
If a roller produces excellent quality in the loft it is an all round champion, (or a true champion whatever).That is the roller fancier definition of a true champion and well we know it, if not then we should,lol
If this bird has won a championship it is the champion in that competition.
If It has won a competition, it is a WINNER!
It was the best of the competitors.
It was top bird.
It beat the others, but is not automaticaly a champion.
I'm sure someone will drag out Pensoms description of a champion one again, as was bred for by the ancient Britons, (just to muddy the waters,) LOL
Pete.
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gotspin7
2267 posts
Mar 04, 2009
4:31 AM
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George, I would say that this bird is a ARSE KICKER! Hell she beat out 299 birds, I do not think people sent garbage to the Classic, they sent the best birds they could come up with as I remember it. In my book she is top shelf, looks nice too. Good luck bro.
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Sal Ortiz
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2599 posts
Mar 04, 2009
8:46 AM
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George what were the ages of these birds in the comp.all yearlings or any age like six month ,2 yrs-?.---------
If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
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harrison
311 posts
Mar 04, 2009
9:00 AM
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Lik stated above EVERYONE HAS DIFFRENT STANDARDS FOR (A TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) if you say she his a (TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) you call her that . Its your bird.
Also if you wanna class her as (A TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER) without her proven in the breeders you dont have verry high standards. Just my take on things Harrison .uk.hull
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Alohazona
572 posts
Mar 04, 2009
9:24 AM
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George,
What is the deal with this bird in particular?Are you breeding from her?You had several people give their opinions to you,what is your interest?You addressed Joe, and then you ran away....Aloha,Todd
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harrison
312 posts
Mar 04, 2009
9:48 AM
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mohamed ali has a daughter who his a world class boxer. So he proved his self alike in the breeding pen .LOL harrison .uk. hull
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glenn
216 posts
Mar 04, 2009
10:26 AM
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Geo:
In that same kit that the above bird was flying in, there was a Red Hen that nobody was looking at. She was once or twice a minute, fast..right back to the kit, flying in the middle of the kit. Nobody was looking at this bird because she was not deep. (10' tops) but her quailty was the best. I asked Kevin McCray about the bird and he said because he bred it that he had to place it last in the competition. (note: He was in charge of the Ca. Classic at that time). I don't know what happen to the hen, but to me she was the best spinner in the group. There was a Dark Check up there to going at it but the Falcon took that one on the day of the show........Glenn
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2009 10:27 AM
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2600 posts
Mar 04, 2009
10:51 AM
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that's right Harrison Ali produce a champ/..:)
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If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
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sundance
1042 posts
Mar 04, 2009
10:54 AM
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I really hate to add to this mess, but what the heck.
I thought I read somewhere, maybe pensoms book, That a Champion must prove itself in the air and the stock loft.
Clearly this bird was a champion in the air, and someone thought so enough to pay a "lofty" price for her. (snicker)
But if she were an all around champion, I would think someone would of built a family line around her, and we would know her by her band #.
Cali. Classic Champion ?, heck yes she is..
A champion in the loft? We dont know
An all round champion? depends on the answer to the previous question...
Just my opinion... she is a classic good looking roller tho.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Alohazona
574 posts
Mar 04, 2009
6:09 PM
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Butch,
You're right,that is a lofty price for a bird.
As I'm sure you know,racing pigeon guys have no problem dropping that kind doe on a hopeful breeder of champions.
It might take a roller breeder 3,5,or 8 years to get a high caliber stock hen.Then again, they might get something in 1 or 2 years.If it comes that early,will they know what they really have.
The bottom line is,if that bird,was able to produce high caliber offspring, the $800 is an extreme value.
Maybe not to some,it does make sense in theory,just don't tell the wife,LOL....Aloha,Todd
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chewy
206 posts
Mar 05, 2009
1:00 AM
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well guys..am reading and all you guys are having issues..but try to understand this..for example..if this is your birds..and it won the classic..like this one did..you would say it is a champion..and i know everybody wants one like this one..but as i can see that most of u guys are arguing over that this one is not..but bet u that if this is ur birds..u guys will be trying to defend wat u guys are saying towards other words.....
chewy..just my thoughts..
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chewy
207 posts
Mar 05, 2009
1:01 AM
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one more thing..this bird..looking good..
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harrison
313 posts
Mar 05, 2009
2:09 AM
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CHEWY I am sure like myself that MOST of you guys have birds that have been in winning kits of some compatishion or another? I DO NOT CLASS THEM AS CHAMPS they have got the produce to become my ideal TRUE CHAMPION ROLLER. Lets see if they can prove themself in the breeders like they did in the air.
You are stating that we are all HATERS? All we are trying to do is give our oppinion of a TRUE CHAMP ROLLER.
bcause after all thats what he was asking.
Like I alresdy said if people wanna say it his a TRUE CHAMP ROLLER then there standards are not verry high.
Pigeon Pete as won the WORLD CUP several times.
Yet I no he doesnt class the winning birds TRUE CHAMP ROLLERS. BRILLIANT BIRDS, WORLD CLASS BIRDS, INFACT THE BEST BIRDS IN THE WORLD AT THAT TIME.
But yet he doesnt call them TRUE CHAMP ROLLERS.
Bcause he nos what he wants in a CHAMP and that his more than winning a compitishion, The hen above won one compatishion. Yet Pete won several times and that his all I have got to say on this matter.
Pete I hope that you dont mind me using your name as a BRILLIANT EXAMPLE? Goerge i hope that you can take something posative away from the posts that people have sent to you. Nobody is pulling you down or hating on you.
Just putting there points across and that his what this forum his for.ISNT IT?.
All the look in the world for 09.Yours in roll.Harrison.uk.hull,sos about my spelling
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pigeon pete
189 posts
Mar 05, 2009
3:07 AM
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Chewy,
If this was my bird I wouldn't need to ask anyone what it was worth. If it is a champ, why is the guy asking other people for their opinion, people who for the most part haven't even seen it fly?
It seems that George either lacks the knowledge or confidence to decide if it is a champion, or he is just wanting us to admire his champion and compliment him on it. It's certainly got more attention than if he had merely posted a picture. I rarely coment on posted photos.
I have not got the seeming ability of many fanciers who can tell from a picture that a roller is deep, or fast, or will produce good birds. Many years ago I admired a blue bar roller in someones loft, only to be told it was a tippler,lol
Pete.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2607 posts
Mar 05, 2009
7:19 AM
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" yes on the day of the National fly it was performing like a champion, and it won the award."
good post Pete..
let me ask you a ? did you breed from that bird?
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If there is no enemy inside the enemy outside can't do you no harm..
Ralph.
Last Edited by on Mar 05, 2009 7:53 AM
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George R.
1407 posts
Mar 05, 2009
7:37 AM
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Pete
the California Classic was not a one time fly as you described.
The Birds were Judged over a period of time.
Also as to why I posted this picture I did it so it would create a post that allows the novice fancier to read what other Fanciers believe is and isnt a Champion.
as far as what I am doing with this Hen I am currently breeding her, the person that gave her to me said she produced some very good Birds for him.
Thank you for your comments.
George
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