Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
437 posts
Mar 13, 2009
10:28 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Great Post...Thanks!
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donnie james
333 posts
Mar 13, 2009
12:52 PM
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hay marcus thanks for sharing your post with us.......donny james
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iowarollers
153 posts
Mar 13, 2009
4:17 PM
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thanks for a lil history of the rollers and of bill himself kevin
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toronto15
110 posts
Mar 13, 2009
5:40 PM
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Thanks for the post Marcus.
I have heard and read that the Whittinghams are referred to as Fireball Rollers.
If the Whittinghams were pre-existing Birmingham Rollers, would not that mean they are still Birmingham Rollers? Glen.
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DeepSpinLofts
1237 posts
Mar 13, 2009
11:00 PM
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Yes Glen... the Whittinghams (Graham Fireballs) are Birmingham Rollers or they are definitely of English origin like the Pensom variety.
.....however
They were bred to be high-flying, long winded and very deep rolling pigeons (30ft-80ft)... unlike the Pensoms where (15ft-40ft) is the norm for a good family of high velocity spinners.
Most important, let us not forget that the Whittinghams are not Pensoms.
Take care....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2009 7:16 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
1240 posts
Mar 13, 2009
11:13 PM
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re: Breeding a Champion Roller Pigeon
To Glen and all; concentration on the stock loft is perhaps the best way for all of us to genetically engineer those top notch spinners (with champion rolling skills) we all desire for competition. The key formula here is having the proper stock to begin with in the first place.
NOTE: We get this particular stock by selectively picking the very best performers out of the air.
...and
The rest is merely left up to feeding, breeding, cleaning, training and routinely flying kits (proper loft management).
My ideal family:
1) Depth - 15ft-50ft in a very, very, very tight ball
2) Style - Smooth rollers to very fast spinners (high velocity performers)
3) Frequency - 1 to 2 times per minute
4) Tight kitting is a must along with stamina
5) Stability - Must be able to last for years, not roll down, bump, or lose work rate with age.
6) Developement - Start spinning short (10ft-15ft) at 3 to 5 months and really bring on the 2nd season up to 60ft maximum.
7) Kit sensitivity - When the team breaks they all should go. The kit should even break on off days but to a minimum (waterfalls).
8) Performance Flight - Fly low and slow with a figure 8 pattern. It's very important to be able to see the birds perform in the air.
9) Good homing instinct - Once settled, the birds should be willing and able to get home if possible (weather permiting).
That wraps it up for tonight!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2009 11:14 PM
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fresnobirdman
542 posts
Mar 14, 2009
12:08 AM
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thats some great traits in your family deep spin loft.
hope i can achieve that in the future.
btw, great info you posted.
-fou
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DeepSpinLofts
1241 posts
Mar 14, 2009
6:20 AM
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Good morning Fou... great to hear from you! Hope all is well with your family of rolling pigeons
NOTE: It takes time to properly breed the desired traits with the desired results in your birds. Believe me when I tell you that it will definitely not happen overnight.
Patience and strict discipline is the key here!
It took several years just to get where I am... and to this very day I'm still trying to perfect specific flaws in my family of Birmingham Rolling Pigeons.
Talk to you later...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 2:09 PM
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tthoj
60 posts
Mar 16, 2009
10:29 AM
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Man finally took had the time to read this post.
Excellent Marcus! Very informative.
Thomas Thao
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DeepSpinLofts
1253 posts
Mar 16, 2009
12:05 PM
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Thomas... always remember these 5 very important words below:
====> "Information and Knowledge is Power"!
There are not many pure Pensoms left out there in the United States. I know of a guy in Texas and a gentleman in Southern California... and of course myself who have the so-called pure "Pensoms".
Some of the birds I have left (including the outcrosses) in my lofts go way back to the bloodlines (families) that were from Houghton, McCully, Plona and Perkins. These birds were originally acquired from W.H. Pensom who resided in Canoga Park, Calif during the early 60's.
Now keep in mind that Jerry Higgins old line was the old pure Pensom strain of Birmingham Rollers that were quite deep (30ft-60ft range) but not as frequent as he had actually wanted them to be for competition purposes.
Okay now let's see here.
Thomas.... it was told to me that Mr. Jim Lippincott from Apple Valley, Caif had traded a few very good birds years and years ago with Mr. Jerry Higgins. In the late 70's Jerry made a few introductions into his breeding pen through the help of 2 other great roller men.
===> Mr. David Sanchez
...and
===> Mr. Richard Espinoza.
The birds Jerry used in his lofts were down from Mr. Joe Houghton's famous pair of Pensom blood #5071 and #199. This is the same hard rolling stuff used by Espinoza and Sanchez in their lofts.
NOTE: The birds that Dave and Richard received back in the mid 70's were birds which came down through breeding pens from an extremely dynamic pair of pre-potent producers...
===> I'm referring to #5071-#199 and their decendants.
Let us not forget that these roller pigeons were handed down from one of the greatest roller breeders of all time:
====> Mr. Mr Bruce Cooper of Kelso Washington.
As a matter of fact... Bruce Cooper was the main reason why so many roller guys and gals out in the Northwest had many great spinning Birmingham Rollers. Of course these birds were acquired by Bruce through his good friend Bill Pensom.
....also
Norm Reed and Jerry Higgins have a very comparable blood-line (family) of birds that spin just as fast and frequent in the air as Espinoza's birds. This is because Mr. Norm Reed's birds (breeding stock) often came from Mr. David Sanchez.
....so
All there is left for me to do at this juncture Thomas is bioscientifically feed, breed, train, fly and stock the very best Birmingham Rollers possible. I'm seeking excellent performers that spin fast, hard, frequent, and of course "quite deeep". I feel this would be preferred by most of todays roller pigeon fanciers. Much like those roller men decades ago who bred & trained some of the best original imports shipped into the USA by W.H. Pensom from England.
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Take care...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 2:17 PM
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toronto15
115 posts
Mar 16, 2009
6:11 PM
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Marcus,I find the statement," it is fair to say that virtually every Birmingham Roller pigeon in existence in the United Kingdom,North America,Europe,Australia, and South Africa, can trace some line of it,s pedigree back to pigeons originally bred in Pensoms loft." a little hard to believe.
What about the likes of Bill Barret,Ollie Harris and recently George Mason?
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DeepSpinLofts
1255 posts
Mar 16, 2009
9:05 PM
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Good evening Toronto.
It's around 9:00 p.m. (PST) and I just left the gym after a grueling body work-out on my biceps, quadraceps and gluteus-maximus.
...well anyway
I noticed that you had stated some rather interesting things earlier.
In regards to your beliefs about Mr. Pensom... you are right to some extent Toronto.
Hmm....
It's conceivable that I may have made a slight grammatical error when I stated:
"it is fair to say that virtually every Birmingham Roller pigeon in existence in the United Kingdom, North America, Europe, Australia, and South Africa"
Notice I didn't say "all"... but the key adverb here is "virtually" which is an active word in action quite exclusive from the pro-noun "all".
Here's something for you to always remember. Keep in mind Toronto that Mr. Jerry Higgins of California has shipped good birds all around the world (including to South Africa).
Guess where Jerry's family of rolling pigeons originally came from.
That's right!
====> Mr. William Hyla Pensom.
In regards to fellas such as Bill Barret, Ollie Harris and George Mason whom you had mentioned... I don't know too much history about them.
...so
If you would like to contribute some informative historical data on these 3 great bird men's careers in the roller game, then by all means please be my guest.
Take care....
Marcus
Deeeep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 10:03 PM
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pigeon pete
238 posts
Mar 17, 2009
11:54 AM
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Marcus, The statement may be true for North America, but as for the UK I only know of 2 fanciers who imported Pensom birds, one of whom is deceased.
There may be more but they never got noticed,lol
Neither of these fanciers has spread these birds around the fancy.
I think it may be true to say that every Pensom can trace it's line back to the UK but not the other way around. re-Importing a family that was bred from UK stock does not make the prexisting families decendants of the new family. Pensoms line was developed after he left Britain.
It's a bit like an American going back to Europe or Africa or wherever his roots are and delaring, "you are all decended from Americans,"lol
Some of the other countries you mentioned have only in recent years imported American Birds. The Majority of their stock comes from long established lines of their own.
I'm making no comment on Bill or his pigeons, just the lineage.
Regards,
Pete.
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pigeon pete
239 posts
Mar 17, 2009
12:01 PM
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I went on a fireball roller site and they tell the history of the fireball rollers, and it mentions that the American?whittinghams rollers were crossed with other breeds and then re-crossed into Birminghams.
If this is correct, and the fireballs were seen as BR's, then maybe this is where some of the new colours emerged from? Not saying it is so I'm just speculating. Whether you call them Birminghams or not is up to you, but the guys that keep them call them Fireballs.
Pete.
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3757
1208 posts
Mar 17, 2009
12:36 PM
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Pigeon Pete - The fireballs did not have white bars and andulusians and some of the strange colours you see today. The only color they had, which was not a strange colour to Bill Pensom, was yellow. If you see andulusians and white bars in fireballs then they are also crossed. Dr. Nordlunds fireballs were very good Birmingham rollers.
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toronto15
116 posts
Mar 17, 2009
1:15 PM
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Hi Marcus,it,s 3:45, just finished a gruelling workout at work, I,m a janitor and we go wild with spring cleaning during March break.
The only knowledge I have of Bill and Ollie are from this site and have read through the search site that they also were icons in the Birmingham Roller sport/hobby.
I am by no means trying to discredit Mr Pensoms incredible accomplishments with the Birmingham Rollers, in the United States or wherever in the world.
I do think it,s good for the breed, and breeders,as a whole to have other stains of excellent performing Birminghams at our disposal.
Whichever way I choose to go, I am still grateful for all the good sound advice you and others have graciously given.Glen.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3324 posts
Mar 17, 2009
3:35 PM
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I remember a Jewish fella being told that Jesus was a Jew and he responded that he understood that He was a Jew, but He is not God. I think ol' Pete is telling you that he understood that Pensom was English, but not a god.(LOL). In England he was just a roller bloke; it is only in the US that he was a god.(LOL)
By the way Markus, the opening post on this thread was very good and I enjoyed the read.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2009 4:46 PM
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toronto15
117 posts
Mar 17, 2009
4:18 PM
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Nick,that was very funny,yet straight to the point. If your ever up here,I,ll make you a nice gefelte fish.LOL.Glen.
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pigeon pete
240 posts
Mar 17, 2009
5:06 PM
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Hi Nick,
I think you know what I was saying,and it is quite simple lol
But to reiterate,
Bill took birds from English fanciers to the U.S.A. He built his U.S family of BR's from them.
They were then dubbed Pensom Rollers by the Americam fanciers.
This family was developed seperately from the hobby back home in the UK, so how can it be said that most English Birmingham Rollers can be traced back to Pensoms? It doesn't make any sense.
It's nothing to do with Mason Or Harris or Barrett, it is the fancy as a whole in the UK that has had little exposure to the Pensom line of Birmingham Rollers.
Again,I'm not disrespecting Bills memory of his acomplishments in the hobby, or his birds, after all they were English birds.
Yours in the sport,
Pete.
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DeepSpinLofts
1257 posts
Mar 17, 2009
7:26 PM
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Hi LaRon...
You still have those Pensoms... correct?
Can you explain a little about the Crystal Palace Family of rollers if you by any chance know of their fundamental connection to Mr. Pensom.
...also
I truly appreciate it if you can supply any historical data what so ever.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
1209 posts
Mar 17, 2009
8:26 PM
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Marcus - I would not have anything else for my pleasure. Also, you will be the first to get e-mailed when my information is published.
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Spin City USA
194 posts
Mar 17, 2009
8:57 PM
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3757,could you put me on that list for an Email when your info is published?
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Bill C
287 posts
Mar 17, 2009
10:28 PM
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I agree with you Pete. I thought is was common knowlege that Pensom got all his birds from imports from Enland. He had access to good velocity and qualtity that was lacking here and he showed the US what a real birmingham roller was.
Pensom to me is more about the man than the birds. He was to rollers as Elvis is to rock and roll. He knew body type and expression and that is his legacy to me, his knowelege of breeding these birds and how he paired them up. Many which were crosses. 514, Even Plona and Smith should have the same credit as Pensom. They continued to breed great birds and yet Pensom still gets the credit? Anyone flying a really great bird today should be given the credit for breeding it. Not 514 or 272 ect. That is just too far back. I know the blood lines continue and I hope they always will.
I apreciate your enthusaism Marcus. I too will always hold Pensom as a champ himself. But I am actually far more addicted to his knowelege and understanding of these imported birds and his continued quality breeding than the birds today that trace back by pedigree alone.
Pensom was kicked out of his own club over pedigreed birds. You could not even have a different roller from a friend on your poperty if it didnt trace back to Pensom imports.
But you stated above what makes a birmingham roller and that was excellent. ( except for me in #6 I like the later developers more than the ones that come in at 3-5 months) But if you can have it all then, go for it. Good luck to you! BIll C
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2009 10:41 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
1263 posts
Mar 18, 2009
2:49 AM
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Yes indeed... with my distinct family of birds proper development of the roll is quite important here.
[Performing Roller Pigeon Development Program:]
Start spinning short (10ft-15ft) at 3 to 5 months and really bring it on in the 2nd season... up to 60ft maximum.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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gotspin7
2326 posts
Mar 18, 2009
6:07 AM
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good read! Thanks for sharing
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
1210 posts
Mar 18, 2009
6:11 AM
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Bill - You are correct and this is the reality "actually far more addicted to his knowelege and understanding of these imported birds and his continued quality breeding." This is the real understanding of what Bill was all about.
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tthoj
62 posts
Mar 18, 2009
1:57 PM
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Hey Marcus,
Thanks for elaborating it more for me.. I didnt check this thread as i didnt know you responded to me. But man you brain is full of knowledge dude. Great Thread Marcus.
Everyone in here gave a great post too.
BUMP!!!
Why dont Tony Do like a "Sticky Thread" where all the very informative infomation are always in the front page so anybody new or need refernce can always go in it too look and read it.JMO.
Thanks marcus.
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DeepSpinLofts
1265 posts
Mar 19, 2009
12:10 PM
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You are welcome Thomas.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Newbie 08
143 posts
Mar 19, 2009
8:24 PM
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I have a guy that works for me. he and I became pretty close last year when he saw some birds arrive to my job which were Ruby rollers I purchased from Tony to start my program. He informed me that he raise rollers as well. After talking roller talk for a couple of weeks he wanted to fly some birds for me. This was in the fall last year and the Bop were lurking he put up young birds as they flew I noticed that they were not kitting well. I did notice one young cream he had was spinning pretty fast and deep. I later notice that he was more so just interested in having rollers and wasn't as serious as I was far as trying to develope a great family of birds with history as well as pedigree. I asked his what line his birds came from and he was like ?? I asked him you don't know what kind of birds you are flying he started to get a bit on the defense saying I have good birds which I didn't doubt although I told him that I'm serious about these birds. He knows i fly the Ruby's and I've been giving him so history on them as well as sharing the pedigree information with him. I told him if you're serious about these birds you need to investigate your bloodline. well finally today months later by seeing how serious I am and challeging him daily about his program he called the guy he got his birds from and i spoke to this gentleman to get information that I though he should have aquired when he first got the squeakers if he was serious about raising. The guy I spoke to was name Doug Tharp In Michigan a really pleasant much older gentleman in his late 70's. He told me all his birds originated from the original 547 Pensom line. now mind you I'm not that familar with breeders although I'm learning alot here. He told me that his birds were handed down to him from his dad who bred birds with a guy by the name of Bill Cook and that his dad and Bill Cook got there birds directly from Bill Pensom. He says he's has 13 family of bird from the 547 line and pretty much all the Birminghams roller that are out here now came from his stock in other words were all pretty much flying his bloodline? I'm like ok that's pretty deep. I just don't see this elderly gentleman having a reason to lie to me. He bands his families by color. He asked my employee did he get any of the red band birds my employee was like no he was like i'm going to have to send you some of them. The cock that sired this family is nine years old a 7 time champion. Now as I'm talking and listening to this man he's really impressing me with. Here are the band numbers of a few of the birds that my employee got from Mr Doug Tharp
One he asked about which he called ole Blue is a Tortise shell hen banded 07AT737
Black slef bronz which is was a squeaker from his red ban 7 time champion banded D,Tharp09Zbestloft4
White Hen Banded AT56NPA7
White Mottle Cock banded RV1033NPA7
If anyone can verify this information that Mr Doug Tharp shared with me it would be very much appreciated My employee and i are going to team up as work together to try to breed the best Birmingham rollers that fit our criteria, Volocity,frequency with 20 to 30 foot depth.It is very important for me to know what line the birds i intend to put the time into come from. I am a memeber of the NBRC and Mr Doug Tharp is as well that I verified. I will be calling him again to get as much information about his birds as I can then I will work with my employee to help him in developing his birds that he already has from Doug. Thanks
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~~~~~~Butch
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DeepSpinLofts
1271 posts
Mar 21, 2009
5:44 PM
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Thanks for the informative data Butch.
I recall the #547 Pensom line and this is a fine line of spinners.
As well as those out of Pensoms 350 Cock.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Newbie 08
151 posts
Mar 22, 2009
12:37 PM
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Thanks for the verification of the #547 Marcus. This guys is giving me a pair of grizzles that he says are the closest he has to the Pensom line. Calls them crazy rollers spin ver hard and tight according to him. Wants me to breed therm out fly the young and tell me what he thinks. He a great ole timer I'm glad to ahve met him and very interested in getting the knowledge he has to offer and 80 years of breeding these birds. He says all he says he knows he's not going to be here forever and all he wants is to pass his legacy on and be given some kind of credit for his work. I told him I would love to be the the one!
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~~~~~~Butch
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