nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3303 posts
Mar 14, 2009
1:50 AM
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The people who do not have frequent birds usually down play the importance of frequency. They counter point it by saying such things as "my birds are deep" or "my birds are quality rollers; they may not win competitions now days, but I have birds of the highest quality...."
I have seen very frequent birds that did a solid roll of 30 feet or more; kitted as tight as a drum.
A kit of high quality rollers can do 35 to 40 or more breaks from a tight kit with several half and three quarter turns of 20 to 30 feet deep and sometimes deeper.
AND you are right; these are the birds winning competition now days. We have several flyers that have learned that you got to do more than just feed for frequency; you got to breed for it as well along with all the other positive traits. It is a tough go to get it all together; the ones that never will; never compete because once they see they can't win with what they got they quit or don't even attempted. They then see themselves sink deeper into loft blindness.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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j .wanless
683 posts
Mar 14, 2009
4:32 AM
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hi all
nick i agree with everything your saying .but i think that a top quality kit of rollers wont be as consistant as a team of lesser quality rollers.i have seen plenty of the top flyers in the world who like you said can fly birds that roll 30 ft easily + kit + break massive .but i have also seen these kits do very little on certain days .where the lesser rollers seem to work all the time.theres not a man on this earth that would not like a little extra something in his birds weather it be speed depth quality activity even colour lol.none of us have the perfect family of birds though we would like to think we have .thats the beauty of keeping these birds its to try + better them each year.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3304 posts
Mar 14, 2009
6:18 AM
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John,
I understand what you are saying and I am pretty much in agreement. A point that I was eluding to is that there are people suggesting the better birds are not winning in competition or at least the birds they have are a higher quality than those that are winning.
I am seeing more and more really high quality birds of late that are very frequent and their wins are deserved.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Scott
1855 posts
Mar 14, 2009
7:21 AM
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John nailed this one, Nick one of the biggest problem is that some don't trust the judging ,with good reason I might add.
A kit hammering out 40 hard solid breaks might be possible,but it would be the rare kit on a rare day.
I have found a kit hammering doing 20 breaks will put you towards the top of most flys.
I can get some dynamite Y/Bs that are very frequent, but thier trigger is too fast and as a team they don't work,they don't give you the big sodid breaks that mature birds more in control birds can and do.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2009 8:33 AM
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gotspin7
2313 posts
Mar 14, 2009
8:26 AM
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Nick, Great post! I will say that all of you have a good point. I on a personal level like to breed speed, style and for kit sensativiy as I truly want the BIG breaks, I like birds that only roll when the kit rolls. On a regular day (not on a fly day) my birds are not really frequent at all on a 45 minute fly they might only roll 20 times, I believe it is the preparation you use for (fly day) that gives them that little extra excitement for those extra breaks.
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Sal Ortiz
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3306 posts
Mar 14, 2009
10:21 AM
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I watched two kits from the same flyer hammer out 30 and 36 breaks with 2 or 3 of the breaks being 3/4 turns and a bunch of 1/2 turns. I was awestruck by their extreme kitting abilities and all of the birds did 30/35 footers; no 10 footers and no 40 footers; all of them within a couple of feet depth of one another. At the end of the break they were still tightly kitted; they then would elevate still together and flew hard into another break. They broke in the same part of the sky over and over again.
In the NBRC finals last year I saw some of the same stuff happening at another fliers place. They are out there.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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j .wanless
687 posts
Mar 14, 2009
10:55 AM
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hi all
nick we have all or most of us as seen these kits at 1 time or another but not that often.i remember the 1st time in s/africa with an old friend of mine morris hole who is a legend in the uk.we witnessed 1 of the best kits we have ever seen.these birds were easily rolling 40+50 ft with excellent quality.big breaks.the year before the same kit finished 2nd or 3rd in the w/c.so they had done it before .but everyone who was with us had not seen them as good .they were that good i went to watch them again 4 days later giving the owner time to get them bang on.but they were no where near as good.ive been back to africa 3 times since + been to watch the kit many more times .but ive never seen them anywhere near as good as that 1st time.thats what i was saying about top quality birds not been as consistant as the lesser rollers.p.s i see it with my own birds all the time .when by myself they will be brilliant but they dont like crowds lol they go all shy when theres people watching them.
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2009 10:57 AM
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Scott
1857 posts
Mar 14, 2009
11:09 AM
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Nick, there is a world of difference between 30 breaks and fourty breaks.
It is pretty basic math Nick, 40 breaks is 1 every 30 sec. if they are averaging 25-30 ft it will take them from 12-15 sec to reform, that leaves 15 sec. to set up and break again , and to do it over and over again with quality for 20 min. they would have to be bionic birds.
Most of these high breaks come from judges calling breaks where there are no breaks,just alot of activity.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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gotspin7
2317 posts
Mar 14, 2009
11:46 AM
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Scott, I will have to disagree with you on this one. As I have seen some clean rolling kits (speed and style) with good separation (20-40 feet) and no flutter.
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Sal Ortiz
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yang501424
236 posts
Mar 14, 2009
12:57 PM
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"judges calling breaks where there are no breaks,just alot of activity" is absolutely true.
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Good Game Loft
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Scott
1862 posts
Mar 14, 2009
1:23 PM
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Doing it every 15 seconds for 20 minutes Sal ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2009 7:17 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3311 posts
Mar 14, 2009
7:16 PM
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One Mississippi; two Mississippi all the way to fifteen Mississippi is a long time when the birds are flying
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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donnie james
335 posts
Mar 14, 2009
8:15 PM
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hay nick very very very good post and i have to agree with on your post...............donny james
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gotspin7
2319 posts
Mar 14, 2009
8:29 PM
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Scott, yes. Rolling correctly and no B.S. breaks!
Nick, once again right on!...lol..
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 2:45 AM
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Scott
1867 posts
Mar 14, 2009
8:57 PM
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Never seen it myself
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
233 posts
Mar 15, 2009
2:27 AM
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As JW said these performances are rare.
I have had the odd bird that could roll solid 25ft rolls 3 times a minute with the kit, and at the right time, but he was the exception.
Getting a kit to roll that frequent is more difficult and when it happens it is something you remember, well you'd better because it doesn't happen very often.
I have seen one of my kits break 40-50 times over 20 minutes with good quality and depth, but that is once in 25 years of watching. They hardly moved from the same patch of sky, just kept re-forming and breaking.
When they do this they can re-group within 5 seconds so at times for short periods of activity, a break every 10 seconds is not beyound the bounds of possiblity.
I agree with Scott about the 30-40 breaks thing.
You often hear a bird described as once or twice a minute , well hang on a bit there is 100% difference between once and twice. it sounds more awkward to say it, but if we have genuinely timed a birds frequency over 20 minutes on more than one occasion then it would be more usefull to state the 20 minute frequency, i.e 30 rolls in 20 minutes, or to say it's a once in 40 seconds or 45 seconds roller. This would be more accurate than anything we use now.
Pete.
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Velo99
2067 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:06 AM
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What I have see when my birds get in the groove is for them to start out pretty high and regroup quickly while still dropping altitude and breaking again. They have a tendency to spiral down while they are breaking like this. It usually takes a few minutes for them go gather it back up and regain thier altitude when they run out of sky. Most of my birds that are frequent have a tendency to either land early or get sloppy. Then you have to pamper them or they start doing stupid stuff and end up getting culled. There are occasions when they go off but I havent seen em do it for twenty minutes yet and keep it together. But thats me.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 8:06 AM
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pacos bill
82 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:49 AM
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OH man I think I am going out and pull all their heads or just fly them to the falcons, after hearing the depth and frequency of other kits.
I had a great young bird team for 2006 that produced many breaks only one or two are still alive but the same pairs that produced this kit produced nothing in the way of performance for 2007 and 2008 I think it may be the increased BOP hits I have 4 2007 birds still alive out of 40 and 6 2008 birds survived out of 60 the average life span is 4 mo and for some reason they never perform the same after lock down which we have to do a lot
I just don’t see the performance I one saw and may scrap the stock pin and start over with a quicker developing line. The line I have comes in good about 6 mo and its just to late and thsy peak at 2/3 yrs but none get that old now days any line recomendations from you guys.
Pacos Bill
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BA Rollers
206 posts
Mar 15, 2009
10:08 AM
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It has been my experience that most people doubt the existence or possibility of something they haven't seen. It goes hand in hand I guess. Haven't seen it, so it must not be possible.
At one point there will be a time when a person will see what they say isn't possible, and either they will accept it as fact, or punish it with questionable faults they conjure up.
Good kits break 25-35+ times in a 20 minute period. That is my personal preference and standard. When you've seen enough competitions and paid attention to the score sheets, the truth becomes evident.
Nick, I do agree with your opening statement. Its sad in a way, but it is one of the many niches within this hobby that will always be. Sort of the ying-yang principal.
Some of the days my A teams have been on point roll quality-wise, have also been days when they are quite frequent too. In fact the most memorable days were when they were humming with speed, and breaking very frequently for nearly an hour.
Discrediting possibilities isn't an art form or a qualifiable position. It is generally a form of lack of information and lack of experience that is essential to growing an improved viewpoint.
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harrison
464 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:56 PM
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I was at my friends house over the weekend and on the friday he had a hawk hanging around,
The birds was trapping like homers and one even flew in his house by the kitchen door.
On the satday his irds would not perform at all .
They was more intrested in keeping an eye out for the hawk.
How long will it take for the birds to settle and get there confidence back?
thanks harrison. ps sorry about spelling.
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Scott
1876 posts
Mar 15, 2009
4:00 PM
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I think I'll shut up, got a fly coming up LOL
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 4:03 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
348 posts
Mar 15, 2009
4:17 PM
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Old birds will recover pretty quickly but young birds may take a while longer. My A kit was hit on Thursday and flew fine today, not much activity for first 5 minutes and then they started setting up for the breaks. Flew for an hour and trapped in quickly on landing.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3321 posts
Mar 15, 2009
9:09 PM
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Brian - I enjoyed the read.
"At one point there will be a time when a person will see what they say isn't possible, and either they will accept it as fact, or punish it with questionable faults they conjure up."
This is true with a lot of things in life and I enjoyed the word "conjure" and your use of it.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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gotspin7
2324 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:46 AM
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Hey Brian, I also enjoyed the word "conjure"...hehehe!
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Sal Ortiz
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DeepSpinLofts
1249 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:40 AM
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Frequency ehhh.... now that's a good topic Nick!
The first thing that comes to mind is biogenetic engineering in the field of Orinthology (study of birds) if the goal is to fly high velocity spinners that are frequent in the air as a team.
Several years ago I had bred some Plona's in the 40ft-60ft range with nice style, but had lacked the necessary frequency required to score big. I crossed some Reed-Higgins blood into them and have realized a very big difference in breaks out of my recent kits flown.
It has been stated that different roller families (lines of birds) have various types of wing-beats which may affect their kitting and team-work capabilities (style) if flown together. I can imagine that (flying multiple families together) can ultimately affect the birds aerial performance and how they'll be judged (scored) in the competition flys. This is why it is an excellent idea to fly birds that are closely related (a family).
My ideal Birmingham Roller pigeon must be capable of.... and rolling in the air approx. 25ft or more in depth (which is the height of the average telephone pole we see) with a tremendous amount of velocity on the spin. Not all families will roll much deeper than this with good style. And yes frequency is a vital component of my ideal roller.
A good spinner in my opinion is one that is rolling hard on average at least once per minute.... however I prefer style over frequency in these instances. When I say style, I'm referring generally to the form, speed (velocity) and tightness on the roll when a bird turns over rapidly in acrobatic flight.
My ideal family:
1) Depth - 15ft-50ft
2) Style - Smooth rollers to very fast spinners
3) Frequency - 1 to 2 times per minute
4) Tight kitting is a must along with stamina
5) Stability - Must be able to last for years, not roll down, bump, or lose work rate with age.
6) Developement - Start spinning short (10ft-15ft) at 3 to 5 months and really bring on the 2nd season up to 60ft maximum.
7) Kit sensitivity - When the team breaks they all should go. The kit should even break on off days but to a minimum (waterfalls).
8) Performance Flight - Fly low and slow with a figure 8 pattern. It's very important to be able to see the birds perform in the air.
9) Good homing instinct - Once settled, the birds should be willing and able to get home if possible (weather permiting).
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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J_Star
1907 posts
Mar 16, 2009
6:10 AM
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This is a good topic Nick and thanks for starting the threat. I have been told by many that frequency is the easiest to breed into your kit. My question to all of you is how do you breed for frequency if it is the easiest comparing to quality and depth!
My method is or was to pick the birds (only hens) that are flying behind the kit and keep on rolling and mate her with a solid cock. I also use feed to play with the frequency but there is a fine line when it comes to feed, otherwise, I might make bumpers or compromise control to the point they might become very daring if feed was changed dramatically.
I would like to hear some of your input. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 6:21 AM
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tucknroll
44 posts
Mar 16, 2009
6:54 AM
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Jay,
The key to frequency isn't breeding from a frequent bird that rolls off the back of a kit. Whats missing in this thread that Nick started is breed kit sensitivity. That means you want the kit to roll as a team and hang on to the roll when the kit is set to go. The frequent off the back birds are nothing but birds that are involuntary that can't hold the roll until the kit feels the sensitivity and ques the roll. Team concept is the key that triggers the frrequency. Thiers more to it but I will leave it at this.
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J_Star
1911 posts
Mar 16, 2009
6:59 AM
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Tucknroll, I believe concert performance and frequency are two different issues. You can have concert performance but lack of frequency and you can have lots of frequency but lack of concert performance which we call activity. Activity is usually found in young teams.
Jay
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Scott
1881 posts
Mar 16, 2009
8:30 AM
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Tuck, you are 100 0/0 correct, whenever I'm building or adding to a team I am looking for the stronger individuels that are in complete command of the roll and break when the team breaks.
These same birds also are the higher quality roll wise as they just go with it and let it rip with complete confidence.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
1882 posts
Mar 16, 2009
8:34 AM
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Bingo !!!!
(Tucknroll, I believe concert performance and frequency are two different issues. You can have concert performance but lack of frequency and you can have lots of frequency but lack of concert performance which we call activity. Activity is usually found in young teams.
Jay )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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