LittleJohn
29 posts
Mar 14, 2009
2:06 PM
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yang501424
237 posts
Mar 14, 2009
2:12 PM
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Tort
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Good Game Loft
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yang501424
238 posts
Mar 14, 2009
2:13 PM
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I have 2 youngs similar
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Good Game Loft
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2009 2:43 PM
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Colors101
19 posts
Mar 14, 2009
2:54 PM
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The top bird is a blue grizzle - notice the tail bar. Some would refer to this bird as a tort, which is the same as grizzle in most respects.
The two birds pictured are either blue grizzle or black grizzles. I can't see the tail in either picture.
Thanks,
Colors
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roller_boi
41 posts
Mar 14, 2009
3:03 PM
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i agree with yang
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fireballroller_boi
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
339 posts
Mar 14, 2009
3:58 PM
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Tortoiseshell!! Yang, your two squeakers are torts also, but I believe you knew that already.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Mar 14, 2009 4:01 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3310 posts
Mar 14, 2009
4:42 PM
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Torts, everyone of 'em
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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sundance
1062 posts
Mar 14, 2009
7:55 PM
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I call `em a light tort, little John. Some have less white, which I call dark tort. Either way , Tort works...
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 5:18 AM
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fhtfire
1874 posts
Mar 14, 2009
8:03 PM
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TORT! TORT! TORT!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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spinningdemon
394 posts
Mar 14, 2009
8:13 PM
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Little John, The grizzles are a dominat gene and easy to produce just pick a nice check or barred bird and mate it to a grizzle or tort and you will get a lot of them. The gene can take over lofts I have seen many lofts of just grizzle birds.
Other patterns in the grizzle group are, Mottles, splash, pepper head and the grizzles. They will expess the grizzle effect to a different degree some will have just a bit of grizzle like under a wing or on the head and some will be heavy grizzle like your photo. You can get a grizzle in any color.
Tort is just a grizzle showing a lot of bronze.
David Curneal
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.intheair.ning.com
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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JMUrbon
671 posts
Mar 15, 2009
12:09 AM
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No matter the appearance of the bird, If you can find a feather on it with 3 colors on it than it is a tortoishell. We can call them a light tort or a dark tort but they are still a tortoishell. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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pigeon pete
231 posts
Mar 15, 2009
1:46 AM
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JM is right,
I have a bird that to outward appearances is a blue bar self, but open the flights and they have red, white and blue, so it's a Tort. A red grizzle will be red and white and a blue grizzle blue and white.
I was suprised when I produced grizzle from two blue cheqs, but when I looked closely there was a faint hint of grizzle on the flights of the cock, but you would never see it unless you specifically looked for it.
Pete.
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raffi59
55 posts
Mar 15, 2009
1:58 AM
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get rid of that shit bird and it colours, go and buy some real rollers that roll ther is enough of basic colours to be happy with. or go and get some colourful fish to look at
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harrison
449 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:57 AM
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tortershell.
You can see the browns and dark colors blendid in.
AS soon as I seen the picture i said tortand then scrolled down and seen other people had said tort.
yours in roll harrison uk.nice birds.
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sundance
1063 posts
Mar 15, 2009
5:23 AM
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Daang Raffi,
Dont harsh on the guy for having a tort colored bird... A lot of people get these, including me.
They pop up in my Jaconette lines once in a while. Should I get rid of them too? Hmmm....
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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LittleJohn
31 posts
Mar 15, 2009
5:30 AM
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Raffi,
Whether or not anyone likes the color makes no difference to me. I just asked what color it was.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 6:32 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3177 posts
Mar 15, 2009
6:00 AM
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Hello All, appropriate action has been taken in regards to raffi59.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
341 posts
Mar 15, 2009
6:21 AM
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Tony,
You have been busy this week. Sooner or later we will get rid of the immature nonsense of some.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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pigeon pete
234 posts
Mar 15, 2009
6:42 AM
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Sunflower,
If he is still immature then there is still hope that he will sort himself out. I think it is ignorance that spawns posts like that one. If it is ignorance in the sense of he don't know any better, then maybe trying to educate is better than banning?
If he is ignorant in the piggy sense, then you can't educate, although you can cure pork. lol
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
344 posts
Mar 15, 2009
6:51 AM
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I'm with you Pete. I think a lot of it is just disrespectful punk-ass garbage that some of these kids pick up on the street. They come in here with an attitude and rather than trying to learn something they have to assert themselves. Fortunately, there are more good youngsters in here that are more interested in learning something about the hobby than shouting down others.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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toughrollers
62 posts
Mar 15, 2009
6:53 AM
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gee thats a bit harsh, on raffi59, he is most likley sick of coloured birds
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
345 posts
Mar 15, 2009
7:02 AM
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Hey toughrollers, his tone and his words were disrespectful at a minimum. The originator asked a legitimate question and raffi offered a venomous response. Besides tortoise shell is not a "colored" roller, it has been in rollers since the beginning as it is basically grizzle.
raffi59 said "get rid of that shit bird and it colours, go and buy some real rollers that roll ther is enough of basic colours to be happy with. or go and get some colourful fish to look at"
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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yang501424
239 posts
Mar 15, 2009
7:17 AM
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Tort isn't a color bird. Many fliers have them.
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Good Game Loft
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Velo99
2064 posts
Mar 15, 2009
7:27 AM
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Tort is a form of grizzle. Most of the torts I have bred come usually from a full color bird with undergrizzle,which is a mild grizzle expression,usually on the head or the wing.
In my experience a little grizzle is a good thing.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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Roll Down
51 posts
Mar 15, 2009
7:45 AM
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I try not to get involved in the silly things that pop up here quite frequently, but rather keep my posts to trying to educate or answere a legitimite
question if I can.
Regarding the color of the birds posted by Little John and Yang, they have been correctly identified.
To educate Mr. Raffi 59, you are misinformed if you think that torts and grizzles aren't capable of rolling as good as any other color.
This may be true in some families if they have only been bred for that color alone without regard to rolling ability, but in my experience, they tend to fly high a bit but can roll as well as any other color.
Geo. D.
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
185 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:13 AM
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Pure Pensom birds have the grizzle factor and res red factor, there for you can pull tort. JDA
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LittleJohn
32 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:32 AM
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Thanks for the help, I didn't intend to open a can of worms, and just for the record these birds were performance bred, the colors were not even considered when mating the pairs.
The bird pictured isa young unflown bird which I plan to get in the air here in a month or so when the hawks settle down around here.
If it dont roll after enough fly time...then it will not stick around at my place, regardless of color.
I have learned quite a bit from reading the posts on this site....so thanks again.
LittleJohn
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3757
1205 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:36 AM
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It truly amazes me that newbies do not understand that the any of the original colors that were in the Black country rollers Torts OR Grizzle, red, checkers, black etc are not color birds and color breeding to me are those birds that have added color like adulusian, white bars etc. Any original colors are not color breeding. JDA is correct.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2702 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:55 AM
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There is enough information here to learn what is and what is not... that I don't give these newbies any excuse to come in here down talking or disrespecting other folks on here..they don't understand because they refuse to learn..and I'm glad Tony was around to catch that before he got further into it.
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
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3757
1206 posts
Mar 15, 2009
9:52 AM
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Ty - I hear guys say they will only breed red checks and blue checks. Well, technically you are breeding, even if performance is your aim, only a certain color. Color breeding to me are the individuals that added colors that are not part of the original birds sent over here. Guys that say people are breeding for color that have (birds without the added colors) grizzles, badges etc are not color breeding. Look at Ray Perkins birds, Smiths birds, Bill Pensom's birds he had all of the original colors in his line (Grizzles, mealies, rec Red, badges, red checks and Blue checks etc). He did not, as most think, just have dark checks.
One thing that is amazing to me is that there are guys who condemn color breeders but have opal, andulusian and that stuff in their birds. All I can say is thank god for people like Herb, Bruce, Jim, Tom Fricano, myself and a score of others because the way things are going there will be no more birds left that do not have all of this other stuff in them. I am not condemning them at all but I think people should have a choice. If everything is all crossed up they will have no choice.
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Scott
1869 posts
Mar 15, 2009
10:08 AM
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Sheeze, I am mister anti color bird , but this is the confusion that the color breeders love and why they keep throwing out blue check, red check ect.
The breed comes in many COLORS AND FACTORS including Torts , Grizzle ect.
When we are talking Color bird (or the so called rare color) we are talking those that were INTRODUCED FROM OTHER BREEDS , not what is common to the orgins of the breed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty Coleman
582 posts
Mar 15, 2009
10:48 AM
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Great post Doc, I actualy removed my post before you replied, lol didn't want to start another war,lol I already have my hands full.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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3757
1207 posts
Mar 15, 2009
10:55 AM
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Scott - That is exactly want I am saying but many do not get it. They think grizzle is color breeding. There was an article written about color breeding and all of the colors mention were original colors. That is not color breeding but those introductions are.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 10:56 AM
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Ty Coleman
583 posts
Mar 15, 2009
11:21 AM
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I don't consider myself a color breeder, but I do have colors in my loft that were not in the origonal imports. I breed my rollers for performance, but I do see and understand you guy's argument for your case.To me Doc made the strongest argument with this post {All I can say is thank god for people like Herb, Bruce, Jim, Tom Fricano, myself and a score of others because the way things are going there will be no more birds left that do not have all of this other stuff in them. I am not condemning them at all but I think people should have a choice. If everything is all crossed up they will have no choice.] This goes back to what I said about being honest about what you fly.
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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JMUrbon
672 posts
Mar 15, 2009
11:30 AM
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A tortoishell has ben around since the first imports. Not a color bird by no means. Raffi obviously has no clue and is speaking entirely from what somebody else has passed on to him. They too have no idea. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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harrison
460 posts
Mar 15, 2009
12:34 PM
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Could I just say that I havent been on this site for to long maybe over a month and in that time what I have learnt is unreal.
When I first come on I had my guard up and was abit loud.
I have also learnt to take comments with a pinch of salt and to respeckt what people have to say.
if I agree or not.
My attitude towards pigeons was good but since listning to what you guys have to say it has gone up tenfold.
Everyone has there own little way with dealimg with there birds and I think it his great that I can ask a question and go away with 20 diffrent answers to think about. Thank you guys for sharing your years of excperince with me.
Thanks to Tony for running such a site.
Without you this excperince would not be possible.
Good look for 09.
Yours in roll harrison uk.
sorry about my spelling.
Even that has gotten better.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 12:39 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1790 posts
Mar 15, 2009
2:26 PM
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LaRon (3757),
If a Flyer who raises competition rollers, who flys in any and all competitions, has a few "rare colors" carried or displayed in his stock birds but breeds purely and primarily for PERFORMANCE without regard for color (like Ty, myself and a long list of others)......it sounds like you are saying that this is A COLOR BREEDER? OR, is a color breeder a person who breeds purely and primarily for feather color on SHOW BIRDS? OR, is a color breeder a person who crosses breeds to bring in a certain color for show? Shall we define out terms in order to better understand who we are talking about or should we just lump these individuals all together, in spite of the vast differences between these types of pigeon men? I think that's where the rub comes.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 2:27 PM
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Scott
1870 posts
Mar 15, 2009
2:35 PM
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LaRon, I can think of far more lofts that "havn't" beed polluted than those that are , it is rare that I see any of that stuff when out and about as most don't want it in their lofts, it is more regional than anything.
Scott
(All I can say is thank god for people like Herb, Bruce, Jim, Tom Fricano, myself and a score of others because the way things are going there will be no more birds left that do not have all of this other stuff in them. I am not condemning them at all but I think people should have a choice. If everything is all crossed up they will have no choice.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 3:48 PM
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Scott
1871 posts
Mar 15, 2009
2:38 PM
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But this isn't completly true Cliff.
( has a few "rare colors" carried or displayed in his stock birds but breeds purely and primarily for PERFORMANCE without regard for color (like Ty, myself and a long list of others)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3319 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:27 PM
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About the torts....it is just another name for grizzle. In another way: Grizzles are sometimes torts. In another way: All torts are grizzles, but not all grizzles are torts.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
346 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:30 PM
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Scott,
Scott said "But this isn't completly true Cliff"
Why isn't it, I have some indigo in one small branch of my family but I don't consider myself a color breeder. I picked the original bird out of the air primarily because of its performance but admit, its color was a factor in selection. I have kept this blood contained to a small number as I breed in individual breeding pens and cull any and all that don't meet the standard in the air. They have to meet the same standard as my blue bars, checks, etc. Is it a project? Yes, but the bottom line is performance not color.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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harrison
463 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:41 PM
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My pigeons are from qualitey stock birds and have proved to me that they can breed otstanding youngsters.
This line of birds carry the color mealy bar,red check and blue pides.
I pick my pairs on there perfomance and also the way they produced for me in the past.
My fave color his mealy and this year the pairs I have pickd will frow alot of mealys.
Remember I am breeding for qualitey spin,depth,controle,consistancey,ect..ect..
I no that when people read this they will say that I am a color breeder?
Could I ask like ballrollers askd why does this make someone a color breeder?
And when is a person not a color breeder?
When he only breeds Blue checks.and Blue bar.
The color of the rock pigeon?
Everyone as there fave color.
I carnt honestly believe that someone goes into there loft and doesnt see the color of there pigeons.
bcause from what I have read on this site it sounds like as soon as you start to notice the color of your birds you are a color breeder? I have read posts were people have said dont pair soft color to soft color? Bcause you get stiffs.
Isnt that messing around with colors? Are they color breeding.
People have said, I have paird a lavender to a self black can anyone tell me what color there young will be?
And this same guy claims not to be a color breeder.
And he may well not be a color breeder.
He his just couriuse what his young will turn out to be.
Now someone comes on and he his talking about opals and white bars but claims he has these birds purely bcause of the way they perform in the sky. His he a color breeder.
Bob Brown had a full kit of white rollers and he bread for the color white.
Now if this kit was around today it would proberly do the bizz in the flys no probs.
When a person breeds for color only and not performance then fair play he is A color breeder.
But there his many top flyers out ther who like color and have color but at the same time have the roll.
Why do people try to drag these men down and try to label them as the so called color breeder?
I have seen people lose there rag bcause people have called them a color breeder bcause they have a certain color in there shed.
Sorry about my spelling and I hope that people can understand my words.
I am improving evryday thanks to you guys.
yours in roll harrison uk.
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Alohazona
592 posts
Mar 15, 2009
3:56 PM
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Littlejohn,
That is a lt.tortiseshell.It will probably moult out most of the red color,but not all of it.
Looks like a nice bird,good luck with it!...Aloha,Todd
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toughrollers
63 posts
Mar 15, 2009
4:29 PM
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Hi all and Tony. I don't know much about colours just like raffi59. But I think it is very wrong to have banned raffi59 on the basis of his opinion. He has not sworn if you consider "Shit" to be a bad word then perhaps you should go through the whole site and ban a few other people as well. As I am new to this site I have read through most of the posts and it has come to my attention that worse things have been said. Losts of people voice there opinion but having known Raffi59 he is a good "bloke" but voices his opinion like all of us on this site. Before banning someone they should be given a warning.
Have a nice day.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1791 posts
Mar 15, 2009
5:09 PM
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Scott,
In what way is it not completely true?
Cliff
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sundance
1064 posts
Mar 15, 2009
5:19 PM
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Yours in roll harrison uk.
sorry about my spelling.
Even that has gotten better
Hey Harrison, I think you`re just getting used to the way we speak on the net over here. LOL
Careful mate... and its good. I think we are gettin used to some of your terms and expressions too ! Carry on...
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3178 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:17 PM
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Hey toughrollers, I appreciate your input, but at the end of the day it is my site and I do what I think is best. If you really want to get into it, send me an email or call me. I am really very tired discussing the stuff online because you will not like what I might have to say and since everyone gets to read it, you will probably feel you have to save face and fight and argue back. Dude, I have been doing this for 5 years! NO ONE has more experience at this them I do. I know what I am doing. Just let it drop, if you can't, move on...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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toughrollers
64 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:30 PM
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Hey Tony, like you said "Just let it drop, if you can't, move on...". You know something I will move on but just make sure you don't favour people like Scott, who consistently talks about "TESTICLES" which you know as a fact thats this is going on. I suppose its who you know that will get further and get away with what they say on this site. Good luck with your site.
P.S. IS THIS GOING TO BAN ME AS WELL? IF SO YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE A FANTASTIC SITE TONY. KEEP IT.
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Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2009 8:34 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3179 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:38 PM
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FYI: Scott was banned once for almost a year. In coming back, Scott has also refined his approach quite a bit, in addition, few have his judging expertise and exhibit a willingness to edumacate the rest of us. In other words, Scott brings unique value to this site which earns him with more latitude. Plus Scott is a tough roller man. Just take a break for a few days.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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toughrollers
66 posts
Mar 15, 2009
8:49 PM
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OK dude catch up in a few days.
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