jnyce
651 posts
Apr 04, 2009
6:21 AM
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how close is to close when it comes to this i dont want to have a bunch of mutants in my loft
jerry t
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toronto15
141 posts
Apr 04, 2009
6:36 AM
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Jerry,that,s a great question,I,ve been wondering the same. I,m gonna get the Pensom book on line breeding,hear it is very informative.
I would be shocked to go out the back and here duelling banjos coming from the loft.lol.Glen.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
934 posts
Apr 04, 2009
6:58 AM
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Hey Jerry, I hope this helps it's as clear as any I've ever seen.
Thom
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Leo
Member
89 posts
Apr 04, 2009
7:02 AM
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Jerry, ..I am an 'oldtimer'.Here is INBREEDING at its best....I bred a cock bird back to his daughter (7) seven times.." TALK ABOUT BEING "INBRED" TO ITS FATHER "! and the color was the only change)they maintained size,,,,performance,.. was good,the eye was a good pearl color, THE reason i did this type of inbreeding was,,I had read an article that a gentelman had inbred mice 165 times back to brothers, sisters,all in one aquarium.So from 1 pr to 165 thats INBREEDING..also with no bad effects...I have a pedigree that shows the late great Bill Pensom,had bred the 514 hen, to 13 different cocks..then the offspring were mated later on ,,one producing the famous World known 119!!!!! So mabe this will help you a little......regards.....LEO
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Leo
Member
90 posts
Apr 04, 2009
7:29 AM
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Thom,,,your map or chart,tells us?? !!! where the blood goes???,,how was the performance,of this orig pr??? the first yr offspring performance??? or second yr???What performance did you start with???This is a ten year chart,that i find to be an abstract to nowhere....LOL.. I thought you guys meant Rollers,SO Thor mabe you can explain this oddisy to me..THANKS ..Leo
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jnyce
652 posts
Apr 04, 2009
8:07 AM
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a thom im sure it will help as soon as i figure out what im looking at it may take me some time ----------
jerry t
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Steve S.
104 posts
Apr 04, 2009
8:19 AM
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Thom,
This chart mostly shows how to line breed.
I agree with Leo that if your inbreeding rollers you have to keep close records of performance to bring out the best traits to later mate the offspring back to the original pair.
Inbreeding will bring out the worst traits also and we must breed away from that.
In order to get a close jamed up gene pool of "Good"
spinners we may have to go to 1/2 bro. sisters or Uncles, Aunts, mom to son, father/daughter etc.
We must follow the Performance.
By line breeding we can have a cock line and a hen line as your chart shows to keep the bloodline but we
must follow the performance to maintain a family of good spinners.
later
Steve
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Scott
1977 posts
Apr 04, 2009
8:48 AM
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I have a problem with such charts for the same reasons as I think Leo is pointing too, if you are following the charactoristics of what we want there is no chart, it twists and turns and evolves around all breeding principles,linebred,inbred pretzel,in and out and around LOL ,this also insures a tight gene pool plus enough vigor within ones loft.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2009 8:50 AM
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
937 posts
Apr 04, 2009
10:26 AM
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Steve S. and Scott, I agree it's only a chart and if used, performance must be first within those guide lines. The question as I understood it was how close without causing mutations. I keep a very tight gene pool but it's best to best. Best young hen to father and so on down the line. I pick my breeders from the air not from a chart, but I also line breed. I posted the chart so that they could see the answer is very close but I also agree that with the good traits will come the bad. You must breed for the traits you want by bird selection, not just by the chart alone, it's only a tool, not a guarantee.
Thom
Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2009 10:27 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3203 posts
Apr 04, 2009
10:59 AM
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Thom, I understood where you coming from. I am glad the guys were helpful enough to point out that ultimately, a person should want to breed only from the best of the stock and pair-up birds in a manner that consolidates the best traits and/or eliminates the unwanted recessive factor/traits in ones family or strain.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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0221
139 posts
Apr 04, 2009
11:15 AM
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I wonder what a your chart would look like if You went back ten years, or where ever You started in Your family. Better yet, a family tree of how You came to your top producers. I think then you could see how your strain is improving and idealy breeding less birds to get where your trying to go. just a thought.
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
938 posts
Apr 04, 2009
11:59 AM
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0221, Returning to rollers was like returning to the forth grade and being the dumbest kid in the class. Remembering and combining new lessons for me is harder then learning from anew. My first year was one of just trying to evaluate the birds I was working with and learning or relearning my management skills.
Due to my lack of skills that year. I done a poor job of pairing the stock available but I learned, some from the birds and some from the board. My second year was better and I managed to produce one exceptional cock and several nice hens. Pairing the best back to their parents in my third year things got much better. Now I have six very nice cocks and a few hens. The cock bird I raised the second season produces as good or better then himself as does his father. This year I went back to the well with the original pair and paired the best young cock to his daughter from the third season and his daughter from the forth season. The original pair produces good cocks and the daughter father pairing of the son produces good hens. I'm learning or trying to learn like everyone else. Each breeder must make choices that work within his own program and where he wants it to go. For me it's line breeding but with only the best within my program. I'm learning and might change my mind but for now it's working.
Thom
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Hector Coya
454 posts
Apr 04, 2009
12:14 PM
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Ive had my Bob Scott family from the Red Headed hen line since 1982,its the only family in my loft that i always truly kept records and never brought any other Bob Scott or any other family in.
I started with one pair,i bred a daughter and the mother died of egg bound shortly after.
Ive bred these birds Father to daughter ,brother sister and everywichway posible without bringing in a outcross,
25 years later and 6 generations i find the % of top quality birds have droped,i get more rolldowns more birds that just dont want to fly and just a few verry good all around spinners.
last year i outcrossed my olsest hen and cock to totaly new blood,nothing in comon.There young are verry good in many ways to the old originals i started with.
To me inbreeding didnt do anything but breed me into a corner.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3204 posts
Apr 04, 2009
12:16 PM
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Thom, you are doing "it" exactly right. Keep it up.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
939 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:06 PM
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Tony, I'm learning and the birds are doing great.
Thanks, Thom
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0221
140 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:25 PM
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Thom,
I didn't aim post 139 at You, I was just rambling. I saw on a video about 20 years ago where Bob Brown said about every 5 years He would bring in a top quality hen and put it to His main stock cocks. Maybe to prevent what Hector had happen to Him.
Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2009 1:35 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3205 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:36 PM
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Thom glad to hear you are focusing and doing the hard work now (culling hard and selecting the best). It is well worth it down the road.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Oldfart
GOLD MEMBER
941 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:39 PM
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0221, I did not take anything personal. I was just trying to explain what I was doing. Also, to avoid the pitfalls I have started a separate line from the original cock and a similar but not exactly the same hen. This line I will carry separate from the other until, or if ever needed. My hope is that each will provide an outcross for the other if needed. And (beating a dead horse), only the best from each line will be used.
Thanks, Thom
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Leo
Member
91 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:39 PM
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You may not know it but Hector is where he should be with his birds>>>His next move will make him a TOP OF THE LINE ROLLER BREEDER!!! Its very simple and I think he knows what to do next...If he does,,,,YOU can start looking for Smoke! in his area,,,Harry ..aka...LEO
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3206 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:42 PM
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Al, I can see your rambling on Bob Browns comment about a new hen every 5 years...on a separate thought, do you think Hector has crest now in his loft because he selected for crest to get the crest, or simply followed the roll?
If he followed the roll, should he have ruled out using a bird that displayed a recessive trait like crest even though it may have been the "best" roller? What if the best roller has webbed feet? Should this be used?
Hector, feel free to jump in...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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0221
141 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:52 PM
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Tony, I have no experience with crests, and although I get web feet I don't breed from them. I did hear a guy say one time that He wished He could figure out how to web the back toe, so the birds couldn't land on the telephone wire's. have fun.
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
492 posts
Apr 04, 2009
1:56 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Ha Ha, everbody is a little bit bored today...LOL
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0221
142 posts
Apr 04, 2009
2:03 PM
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Lipper, Yea I flew two teams today. Our friend got one out of each kitt. After 20 minutes of wondering why I even keep rollers anymore, I came in to play on the computer.
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
493 posts
Apr 04, 2009
2:10 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Sorry to hear that you lost a couple. I had planned on working with the birds all weekend. The wind is cranking like hell and the temp. is falling fast. So here I am as well.
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Hector Coya
456 posts
Apr 04, 2009
2:38 PM
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Hey Tony,
On the subject of the crest,its a side project,it has nothing to do with my Bob Scott line,i never got a crest from any of my lines actually.
I got my first crest from 3 other people,as ive said it before.
A side project is nothing more than that,im far from where i want to be with the crest,but getting there is more than half the fun.
ive been breeding crest since 03.
i only have about 4 that i can say are top quality rollers,if it was the crest and crest alone i was working on i would have about 50 stocked,however the crest is a trait i like not all with the nicest crest are the once that roll the nicest.
its like someone stoking a birds becouse it has a better pedegree than another bird in there kit that rolls way better but has no pedegree,,,
its even harder becouse a can breed quite a few good rollers to my standard but to get one to be a good roller and have a trait i like is more of a challenge.
since i started the problem with the crest has been that they are too deep,but man can they roll.
they need more control and thas what im working on.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3210 posts
Apr 05, 2009
2:05 AM
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Hector, sounds like you have worked out a nice side project to keep you busy and entertained!
I find it interesting that you are working on control. Can you share any ideas you have about what characteristics you are looking for that might give you the control this line needs? Have you already tried any specific traits but that have not worked out up to now? Have you considered introducing an out-cross that expresses good control?
But to keep it within the current family line, might you use a stiff? Late developer? A bird already expressing some level of control, however slight it may be? Do you feel control or the level of intelligence needed is a recessive gene within this stock that you have to find through breeding and flying allot of these birds?
When and if you are able to complete your project, would you say you have developed a new strain of Birmingham Rollers or a new breed of performing rollers?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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