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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Second Thanks to Cliff Ball
Second Thanks to Cliff Ball
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gentle johnnie
13 posts
Apr 08, 2009
3:42 PM
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thanks Cliff Ball i recived my first kit of ball rollers yesterday first rollers in 28 years they look great had problem getting them in kit box lost 2- 1 yellow-1 andy friend was helping put them in kit box open door to wide they like to have knock me down getting out was heart broken think they were both hens one went west other went east by by again THANKS CLIFF a true roller gentleman--------
Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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gentle johnnie
14 posts
Apr 08, 2009
3:43 PM
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will do pics as soon as they com down
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1820 posts
Apr 08, 2009
6:10 PM
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johnnie,
I'm glad they arrived safely. Too bad about that Andy....he was a good 'un already. My best performance is in the Andys. The yellow was a Starley/Turner cross, actually the smallest of the Starley birds that I produced. She wasn't as deep as her mother yet but she was still very young. I've been donalting my family crosses and following Turner and Joe Bob Stuka's advice to stay with the straight Turners. Fly them out, cull hard, and hope you get a few good ones. We'll try again in the fall if you decide to stay with this family.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2009 6:11 PM
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J_Star
1955 posts
Apr 09, 2009
4:57 AM
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Cliff, where is my kit!! (lol)
That is very nice of you...keep up the good work.
Jay
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2009 4:58 AM
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cballlofts
56 posts
Apr 09, 2009
6:27 AM
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Johnnie,
After You settle and start flying those Birds, I would be curious as to There flying pattern. Let Us know.
Chuck
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Scott
1995 posts
Apr 09, 2009
6:52 AM
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Cliff, if you are staying with the straight turners why are you crossing them ?
why do you even have a solid family like the Starleys on the property ?
If you dont mind me asking what who elses birds do you have ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2009 6:53 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1823 posts
Apr 09, 2009
8:36 AM
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Scott,
When I first got my birds from Jay, he was working with a separate line of Cook/Turner, besides his straight Turners. I observed that Joe Bob, and Clay also cross a lot of birds into their families also. In fact, it seemed that the majority of roller men were goinig about establishing "their own" family by crossing a couple of families to come up with the perfect roller. So I dabbled a little also. Joe Bob tried a few Starley crosses, so I did the same thing. But in this past year, I have heard Joe Bob regret his crosses, wishing that he had stayed within the straight Turner family to develope his own strain. Since then, in analyzing my breeding records, I have also seen that my best birds coming from my straight Turners. When I visited James Turner last fall, he said, "I don't care what family you decide to work with, Cliff,but when you decide, stay with that family and work with them through intensive line-breeding if you want the best results. Don't cross families!" And of course it has been the same thing other successful flyers like yourself have also been preaching. So I have made the committment to stay with the "pure" Turner family and have been letting go of the other birds that are crossed families. I had already obtained a few pair of Rick Schoening's birds to compare performance and raised a kit of them as a side project as well. Clay is now using the breeders, though I kept the dominant opal Pensom of Rick's to breed with the lone Pensom I have left over from 2004. So I still have side project or two that I am playing with for the sake of comparison of performance and handling, but my main emphasis and production is with my straight Turners. Hope this helps.
Cliff
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Scott
1997 posts
Apr 09, 2009
9:00 AM
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Cliff, JoeBob was trying to get some stability in them, that is a fact, no other reason, I am assuming that Jay was doing the same as even you stated when you were new here about the 60 0/0 roll down he had, JoeBob claimed about the same.
When I spent a couple of days with JoEBob he told me that if he had to do it over again that he would have tried to accomplish it out of the one family,but he had gotten them where he wants them stability wise now, of course you allready know all of this but you will deny all of it of coarse,which is typical,dominate Opal Pensom , you musta bumped your head.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2009 9:01 AM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1824 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:10 AM
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Scott,
I repeat for the umpteenth time....significant instablity does not seem to be a problem for my birds. Maybe I have been a little luckier with my pairings to produce better stability from within my family. I am happy with the percentage (3-5%) of rolldowns that I get each year. If it were a problem, I would be breeding from another family. In my opinion, this family has just the right amount of heat, and I enjoy working with it. I have seen much higher percentages of rolldowns in other families of "pure" birds. You are correct, I like most guys, am constantly trying to improve my birds and my handling capabilities. I am not where you are yet with regard to experience. But like you, I am on the journey. I am learning how to handle my birds with my flying conditions. I am sure you, too, have gone through this learning curve, and are hopefully still learning. This is a learning curve and I am not where I want to be yet, especially with regard to keeping birds on point between the regionals and the finals. I am making the choices that I think are best, and I am making a few mistakes, too....but it is all part of the game. WHO wants to do everything just exactly like Mr.XYZ ? Even though Mr. XYZ is very successful each of us wants his own strain of birds. Each of us has an opinion as to how deep is too deep, how fast is fast enough, and what is the best style and frequency I can obtain. We want our birds to be "JUST RIGHT" to suit us. We may take a few birds from here or there and then mold them into something WE like. I am enjoying the trip just as you do. Although I may do things a little differently, I still am trying to be a successful ROLLERMAN as Joe Bob is, as Clay Hoyle is, and as many other men are. I know you are only trying to help guide us through the pitfalls, but, still, each of us must make our own mistakes in order to learn. I know it frustrates you to watch me as I go my own direction, and you feel the need to put my family of birds down, and even me personally sometimes, but that direction I have chosen is what gives me happiness and that is the reason we pursue this hobby. You'll just have to live with that. My goals may be a little different than your own and therefore my methods may seem different from yours. I know you want us all to be successful with our birds but sometimes a little encouragement is better than disparaging remarks. But that is for you to decide, God knows I could not and would not try to change one hair on your(^%$#*^) head. ;))
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2009 12:09 PM
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Scott
1998 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:53 AM
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Cliff,one thing I am is honest to a fault without bullshit, honesty of our own birds has to be first and foremost, as for my own birds they are a major pain in the ass to keep a handle on once mature, it is a fault.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1825 posts
Apr 09, 2009
11:14 AM
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Scott,
It's no walk in the park but I wouldn't have it any other way. From what I have observed, there are no "PERFECT BIRDS" or "PERFECT" judges or "PERFECT" handlers. The "CHALLANGE" is what makes this sport/hobby so interesting and unique. Based on your record, you are doing a damn good job.
Cliff
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Scott
2000 posts
Apr 09, 2009
2:50 PM
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Cliff, a "challange" in understatment where these birds are concerned, I find nothing easy about breeding and fielding quality teams.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1829 posts
Apr 10, 2009
7:23 PM
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Scott,
You said to me in a post above, "Dominant Opal Pensom, you musta bumped your head!" I thought that I would send you my source for this information. Rick Schoening sent it to me along with the Dominant Opal Pensom Cock of his, 201. Here is what Rick sent me about this cock, "201 is a great roller. He can vary his depth and speed. He always shows good style. Adrian Gasparini liked him the best when he was at my loft 2 years ago. 201 was part of my team that dominated my competitions in 2004, 2005, and 2006."
Cliff
Forwarded Message: OD source
OD sourceWednesday, January 28, 2004 11:07 AMFrom: ROLTIDE256@aol.comTo: rb112@ronan.net
My Dominant Opal was found in a family of inbred Black Badge, Balds, and Saddles. Sam Wesley had got birds from me and was happier with them than this Black marked family. This family was from Illinois, I do not remember the fancier, Sam probably does. One of his concerns with the blacks was their inability to breed well. I was at his place for a visit and he had 20 or so of his black marked breeders boxed up to go to the pigeon dealer. He asked me if I wanted any of them. I found a slate tinged Black Badge with a small sliver of rosy beige where the feathers of the neck meet the breast feathers. It was an unusual color for this area, and something I had never saw before. I brought this hen home and tossed her in my Stock Cock holding pen (it was off season). My top Stock Cock at the time paired with her and they nested over the top of the of a closed up individual breeding coop. The first two youngsters were Dominant Opal hens. This explained the poor breeding results Sam had been having; the lethal effects of the Dominant Opal. These youngsters were spread opal, but very recognizable as Dominant opal. The recessive genes or combination of recessive genes that had kept it hidden in the Black family was broken when paired to my old Stock Cock. These Black marked birds were good average rollers. They very well could have been better than we thought, as we were not accomplished flyers at that time. The type on the Blacks was perfect. My Old Stock cock was a champion in my opinion. He would roll deep when high, shallow when low, very active pigeon, rolled with a very smooth, very small hole. He was out of pure Pensoms, all this happened in 1971.
I do not consider my OD's to be an introduced gene or mongrel. The Blacks the gene was found in were Birmingham Rollers. They probably were not pure Pensoms, but they were Birminghams. Some of the OD's around the country did not originate from my stock, but it would be safe to say that lots of the good ones did. This gene and spin are connected somehow. The number of good ones of this color proves it to me.
I really enjoy your writings.
Ellis
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 7:20 AM
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Scott
2007 posts
Apr 10, 2009
8:06 PM
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Yea Cliff that is something to hang your hat on ,c,mon LOL , I suggest you get off of this odd ball kick you will forever spin your wheels.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 8:07 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1831 posts
Apr 11, 2009
6:42 AM
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Scott
I may be spnning my wheels, but as you know, they have been spinning me right into the finals for the past few years. I fly in a very competitive region so I think that it is "STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION". If I am spinning my wheels, I feel like, at least, I am moving forward a few feet at a time! LOL! Besides, it's not me being judged but my ROLLERS.
And don't forget, this "odd ball kick", as you say, is what my family is based on, even though some may not show it. As long as they perform to the standard and even though they may not be 100% pure in the eyes of some, they are still "MY" 99.9% pure Birmingham Rollers and as long as I pay the feed bill, my number one priority will be performance. I did not cross any breed into my rollers but it must have done somewhere along the line, I freely admit to that. As long as they spin, I could care less.
If Ellis thinks this is what happened, I can see how it could have happened just how he described it. To you it may be a slim possibility but if you knew Ellis as I do , you might be a little more understanding about the situation. Ellis knows more about genetics than just about anyone I know. He can spot a color or a gene modifier better than most.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 6:45 AM
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Scott
2012 posts
Apr 11, 2009
8:25 AM
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Cliff, you know I put no value on regional flys,I honestly don't have a clue how many regional flys I have won or qualified in, Why ? because is is meaningless , it is the finals that count, also breeding countless numbers to compensate for all the odd ball stuff constitutes what ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 8:26 AM
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gentle johnnie
16 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:04 PM
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 v
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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gentle johnnie
17 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:06 PM
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sorry guys first time to post pic will try to do it right next time this is one of Ball- Turner birds Cliff sent me
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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gentle johnnie
18 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:12 PM
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two more
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1832 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:27 PM
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Johnnie,
I really like that piebald redcheck. His mother flew in my Comp kit for two years. The bird pictured above is off my A-kit hen and her father. He's a late hatch, October, so he should be coming into spin soon. Good luck.
Cliff
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gentle johnnie
19 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:44 PM
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PieBald Red Check from first pic and Blue Bar Badg.
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Gentle Johnnie "Angels of the Sky Loft"
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 5:48 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1833 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:48 PM
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Scott,
Perhaps if you had to get past two Master Flyers, three NBRC National Champions, and one WC champion before you could earn a spot in the finals, you might think differently about how stiff the competition is in some regions, and about what that says abouta guy's regional wins. I don't care how good the birds are, if you fail to earn a spot in the finals by NOT winning a regional qualifier position, you don't even get to FLY in the finals. I do, absolutely, see your point that the finals are more important and I agree. But let's not take away the accomlishment of the guys that win their regions. They flew the best birds in the region on fly day. That IS saying something.
As I explained to you before,I breed these numbers to have plenty to share with others, and plenty to fly to make up for unexpected losses due to weather-related over-flys and BOPS. It has nothing to do with your oddball theory, unfortunately. But you have, rather consistantly, demonstrated that you won't let a simple thing like the truth dissuade you when you have made your mind up about the way you think things are happening in other peole's lofts.LOL! Perhaps there is some unwritten rule that I am not aware of that limits the number of birds that one may breed. If the NBRC wanted to limit all breeders to 20-25 birds a year, would that suit you? Sure, that would give you a distinct advantage since you have already been down that road and have proven and selcted you stock loft! LOL! Smart guy! Strange way to think......I guess in your usual way, you are trying to say something demeaning about my birds or my handling. Gosh Scott, I am just plodding along doing the best I can. If I didn't know better I would think that nothing I do suits you! LOL!. But Hey! I don't do any of this to suit you or anyone else......but I do appreciate your concern. I will continue to breed rollers the best way I know how. Even though you are my idol (Ahem), I still prefer to wander along and find out what works and what doesn't, in my own time frame.
Cliff
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