cv rollers
322 posts
Apr 08, 2009
10:45 PM
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question ,i no u fly before u breed but my question is if u have some birds that r from good stock but young ,do u fly and take the chance of losing it (which i did lose a good one flying it)or do u let them mature and breed ,then fly the young ????only my 2nd year and these are good birds,will not get a second chance if they fly away or mr cooper gets them what would u do in my case..
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tob
144 posts
Apr 08, 2009
10:54 PM
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i would let them mature then fly there young,it wont take long and at least you have back up **tob**
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cv rollers
323 posts
Apr 08, 2009
11:07 PM
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that is what my gut is telling me just wanted to hear it from others
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JDA
GOLD MEMBER
224 posts
Apr 08, 2009
11:07 PM
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Good call tob, breed them and work there young.JDA
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Bill C
324 posts
Apr 09, 2009
12:08 AM
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Scott and Big willy will not agree with it but I had gotten some birds from Joe Borges and they were past training age and he suggested to me to just breed from them. I did just that and am picking out the best in the air to breed from.
I will be flying half of those youngsters from unproven breeders in the WC fly this year. By next year I will have a whole kit of them flying in competiton.
I would not recommend breeding anything that you have not flown unless you get them from a good source and solid family or flyer. We went through this on another post just a few days ago if you read on the post, titled " Why breed from culls" or something like that. If anyone gives you a hard time, ask them for a pair of proven breeders to borrow for a few years.
You have to make your own proven breeders and you can start out that way if you do not have enough of them to fly out and lose half or more. The off spring will tell you if they are birds worth keeping or not. Sure you will have a few that throw a roll down or an out bird but if you keep records you can see which ones to use as fosters and which to keep breeding for over the next 6 or 8 years. In fact once you start pulling in the best in the air, you can get rid of the originals. Bill C
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2009 12:12 AM
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cv rollers
324 posts
Apr 09, 2009
8:20 AM
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thanks Bill C ,will do ,thanks for ur response ..and yes it is hard to get a pair of proven breeders
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
368 posts
Apr 10, 2009
7:49 AM
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I won't breed out of anything that I haven't seen perform in the air period. I have wasted too much time in the past breeding off of birds with great pedigrees that were not stock quality. I would rather take the chance on losing the bird than wasting time breeding out of unproven birds! Just my position, to each his own.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
2006 posts
Apr 10, 2009
8:16 AM
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Joe, I am with you a 100 0/0 on this one , I would venture to say though that there are far more un prooven birds breed every year than prooven,which makes no sence to me as everyone isn't new.
I might add that not all the birds I started with were prooven either though,which made the road longer, but then try getting into my A-team where the prooven cream is,you can't do it.
I am really struck behind a rock right now, I have some birds that can't be replaced in my A-team due to one of my main cocks quiting on me and a old hen,these are also 100 0/0 first class pigeons that have done the time in the A-team , one of which is also allready prooven in stock,these birds will move me forward.
The delima is this is one of the finest teams that I have fielded in a very long time and we have the W/C bearing down on us,do I gamble the future of my loft ? or go for the gold ? hmmmm
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 8:19 AM
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cv rollers
325 posts
Apr 10, 2009
8:18 AM
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Sunflower i under stand what u mean but rite now all i have is time (unemployed since aug.08)lol ..more time than money lol but thanks for ur input
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toronto15
152 posts
Apr 10, 2009
8:23 AM
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Because,of great Birmingham Roller Pigeon fanciers in Toronto, in conjuntion with racers like Gilbert and Cocomile, plugs are still spinning. Pick them out of the air.Glen.
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cv rollers
326 posts
Apr 10, 2009
8:35 AM
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scott that is what i am trying to say i dont have a so called stock loft ,if i lose these i am right back to square one that is my delima
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 8:35 AM
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J_Star
1957 posts
Apr 10, 2009
11:25 AM
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It doesn't hurt to breed them for a season and then put them back in the kitbox. This way you have tested a sample of their future progny.
Jay
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Otis
181 posts
Apr 10, 2009
1:13 PM
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Scott, In the big picture, it's why we play the game! We attempt to put up the very best we have and face the dilemma of why we didn't stock a real proven stock bird that made it there on all counts, how fortunate to get to that point. You have as much of a chance of winning the big one as anybody. When do you pull out all the stops? Why not now? I salivate for the day when I can keep flying a breeder quality bird destined for the breeder loft. I've gone the long road of not knowing what a certain breeder did in the air and found it to be a frustrating affair that I'm soon hoping to end. Taking the chance is partof the battle. There comes a time when the kit box rules! "Go for the Gold" Otis
CV, Year 2, Breed up a mess of young and fly them out if there good as you say they are. Most good plans are in the 5 year range in this sport anyway. All the best.
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 1:21 PM
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Square
702 posts
Apr 10, 2009
1:16 PM
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CVroller, Its great to get advice from others, however there are so many diffrent opion's out there,, Just look at some of the post reguarding this topic. Here is my opion Do what works for you figure it out on your own, dont be afraid to do your own thing,, that way you know what works for you from experience,, not someone else's. I know alot might not agree but if it was as easy as picking birds outta the air that are Ideal we would all be on the same page. Here is a question, have you ever breed of a bird that was awsom in the air with a super pedgree and the babies didnt do SH&I? There is just so much more than picking birds outta the air or buying the best stock avilible,, cause guess what there is a chance they can not work out, or reproduce themselves. Is that a good guideline? yea you bet but it's not the only way to build good rollers.It's about what works for you, Just not as cut and dry as some make it. Hope it all works out,, and good luck. I listen to what people say as far as advice ,, But I relize im alittle "Hardheadded" and sometimes "The Hardheadded gotta feelit to believe it"LOL....1
Booker
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2835 posts
Apr 10, 2009
3:00 PM
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I fly my birds I don't care where they came from I have to see what I am going to breed to.why because of past experience wasting too many time now I rather waste money but not my time .everybody has there own reasons you have to decide for yourself ,if you unemployed and have the time and you have invested on these birds and you don't want to blow your investment because of BOP or what have you.. like Jay said you can breed them and fly the young and put the parents back in the kitbox to see what they really made of..if you ask for an opinion or advise you will get it here now its up to you to feel it out..base on what you feel go for it without thinking twice..goodluck what ever you decide... ----------
Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
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cv rollers
327 posts
Apr 10, 2009
5:37 PM
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thanks guys ur all correct ,just good to get others view point .i will make a choice and live with it thank u all that responded,we are all a little different and that is what makes this site great .
Rick
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cvrc(ckc)
19 posts
Apr 11, 2009
1:19 AM
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hey rick, i would fly the birds and then breed them if they do good. which birds are these by the way?
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Cristian Castro
www.ckcrollerz4e.synthasite.com
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pigeon pete
280 posts
Apr 11, 2009
9:29 AM
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Scott,
I was in a similar situation in 2004, but I flew ALL my best birds, no birds were bred from that year.
It paid off in the short term, but having tasted success that had previously eluded me, I got greedy and I wanted more. After they won the WC and then the AERC, I kept them flying to compete in the Nationals.
All the time I was losing the odd bird here and there to the BOP, and by the end of the season, I had few stock quality birds left. I never kept a large stud and they were soon wasted. For 5 years since then my enthusiasm has waned on and off for various reasons, and I bred a few in 2005 and 2007, and only this year has my keeness returned, but I am starting from a lot lower rung than if I had returned all my best birds to the stock loft after the WC.
I made a comittment, and don't regret it, but I shoulda known when to quit, lol.
YITS
Pete.
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j .wanless
716 posts
Apr 11, 2009
9:57 AM
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hi all
to me you should never never breed off y/brds just because they have been bred off good birds.always fly them + only pick the very best to go in your breeder.
i have seen it a few times were a breeder as told the buyer to stock the y/brds without flying them + what i saw with my own eyes 1 of them had wasted almost 10 years + to stop the other doing the same i went in his loft + killed most of them.both these fanciers come on these sites + will comfirm what i did.but the lads birds i killed is now breeding off a kit i flew for him + gave him as a gesture for killing his kit.
strong tactics but it saved him waisting years.
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Scott
2014 posts
Apr 11, 2009
10:13 AM
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Funny you mention that John, there was a time I had such a mess, crossbred color birds ect. I was told that if I wanted to get serious to cull the entire loft and they would help me out with good birds, I culled out the entire loft and never looked back.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 10:14 AM
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katyroller
364 posts
Apr 11, 2009
12:29 PM
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CV, There are several different ways to look at this question. You can do like most recommend and fly them out if you can afford to lose them or you can breed them and fly out the youngsters. If you decide to fly them and really prove them out, the general concensus seems to be that you need to fly them out for about two years. That's two years of no breeding, can you wait that long? You could fly out birds that don't really impress you only to find out that their real value was in the stock loft. You could also breed the crap out of them and fly the young hard for two years to prove them out. Maybe you get something good out of them, maybe you don't. I personally suggest getting a couple pair of breeders from a breeder you trust, have faith in the breeder, breed the crap out of them and fly out the young. If they don't work out for you get rid of them or use them for fosters and don't look back. You will have given the family a fair chance to prove their worth and probably learned something about flying and managing birds. Good luck!
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ezeedad
938 posts
Apr 11, 2009
12:35 PM
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CV,
It is best, in my opinion, for you to breed those birds and fly their babies... I would even go farther than that..!! I would say to breed them, keep a few babies that you like to use as future breeders to build a bigger breeding base...and fly the others...
You could easily lose some valuable birds to te predators by risking the few birds you now have.
If they are good birds you will be able to produce a lot more in the long run, and will be able to "gamble" a lot more freely with the flyers.
In the meanwhile you might want to scout around to see what else is available as a backup strain or future possible cross into your existing birds.
So build a good strong stock loft and breed a lot of birds to increase your chances.
Paul G
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pigeon pete
281 posts
Apr 11, 2009
1:50 PM
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CV,
'Sorry I didn't address your question in my first post. You pay the feed bill and it's up to you, but--
Rather than breed the crap out of unflown youngsters, and maybe be breeding the crap into your family,
I would fly the crap out of them and even if you stock them at 12 months old you will know which ones are the birds that actually roll to a decent standard.
Then-- I would breed the crap out of the best ones, and maybe that way you will save yourself the bother of sorting out the crap that you bred into them by breeding the crap out of the worst ones in the first place.
Think about it.
Two pairs of proven rollers bred together after 12 months, as opposed to breeding 10 pairs of unproven ones. If you do get two pair after 12 months, what would have been the chances of pairing them 4 birds together without flying them? Very slender I would have thought.Even if you did hit upon those matings by chance you would have maybe bred only 2 or 3 rounds from them.
Once they have proven themselves, your chances of getting better percentages out of them will dramaticaly improve, and you can breed a lot more out of them using fosters. You will then after 2 years have a kit bred from proven rollers. The other way you could be pairing up some good rollers of doubtful parentage, and have a lot of wastage. The other danger of breeding unflown is that your best birds could be paired to unsuitable mates and produce nothing of merit, you may then get rid of the best rollers after 12 months, (remember you never flew them so you only have the breeding results to go on).
If you are very impatient, which is not a good thing to be with rollers,lol may I suggest a half way compromise. I've not tried it, but it may work better than breeding unflown.
Fly the whole lot out, and when one comes onto the roll, if it is rolling with reasonable quality, pull it from the kit and pair it up. This way at least you know something of its airial capabilities, and yes you run the risk of losing it to predators, but unless you have a real bad BOP problem you stand a chance of gaining a couple of years on the other option of not flying them at all.
You wouldn't pair them up as squeekers anyway, so why not fly them until they roll, by which time they may be mature enough to breed, and then try a few youngsters out of them in the first year. This is a shortcut and you will not know if these birds would've turned out to be good birds or even rolldowns but you will know they roll and in what style.
Most youngsters will rolldown early rather than later, so if you pull them from the team once they have been rolling a few weeks, I would think your chances are certainly better than breeding everything untested.
Shortcuts can sometimes take you a very long way round to where you didn't want to get to in the first place.
As Scott says, just my opinion.
Pete.
P.S can I say crap on this forum?
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katyroller
365 posts
Apr 11, 2009
2:04 PM
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CV, I looked at your original post again and I think you answered your own question. "only my 2nd year and these are good birds,will not get a second chance if they fly away or mr cooper gets them what would u do in my case.". If you can't afford to lose them, don't fly them.
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j .wanless
718 posts
Apr 11, 2009
2:26 PM
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hi all
here here pete 100pc agree with you.better to loose a few + only use the best thats left.than stocking them all + possibly wasting years.as like ive said ive seen it happen.
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SiDLoVE
398 posts
Apr 11, 2009
2:45 PM
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In your secenario id go ahead and breed off them and like Paul G said dont go further then 1 round until you see there performance.Then select from there. Youll know off breeding which one is throwing the goods.Then use others for fosters. Even if you flew them for 2 years doesnt mean they'll become good producers! Find the needle in the hay stack and go from there.
Sidlove
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tob
146 posts
Apr 11, 2009
9:29 PM
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i think you got some great answers there,and ive been reading this with great interest.Because am in a simular situation.But the way i look at it if you only have a few birds and breed from them to get a few more,you are only starting, untill you get them in the sky.**tob**
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Windjammer Loft
766 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:25 AM
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This is especially for the "newbies". If you can't afford to "lose" the bird then "don't" fly them. I did it this way and "never" regretted it. Just my opinion.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Indy
48 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:54 AM
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CV
My start was a little different I started with some birds from a reputable breeder but did not know really anything about them except that the breeder was cutting way back and these were his extra birds. I got them in late fall and most were yearlings so they had been flown for two years. I just put them all in the breding loft and let them mate up on their own. I ended up with 8 pairs and some extra cock birds. I bred out of the pairs and started flying the young birds. I also flew out the extra cock birds. Last fall I had found some decent young birds in the group and found that most of them came out of two pairs so this year I kept those two pairs together and now I have put the rest of the breeders back in the kit box with the hold over young birds from last year. I will fly out the older birds and if there are some I really like in the air I will pair them up and breed out of them.
My reasoning for doing this was I did not want to risk loosing the original birds without getting anything out of them. Now I got one seasons worth of young birds out of them I have found a few pairs that have produced so I can breed out of them and go back and fly the others to see if there are any more in the group that I want to try to breed out of. The only exception to this was I have one hen that the breeder pointed out as being the best in the group but none of her babies showed me much so I held her back and have paired her with the extra males that performed the best last fall.
This is what I did. I am not saying that this is the right thing for you to do, Just something you might try.
Good Luck to you and your birds
John
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
369 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:18 AM
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Scott,
I understand your dilemna. I had my best 07 bird taken by a BOP a few weeks ago as you will recall. I pulled her brother for the stock loft as they were both proven stock quality birds off of one of my key birds. Decided I couldn't afford to lose them both. Since then I have pulled 2 more and the BOP have taken 4 or 5 as well. Needless to say my A team is not what it once was but I made a contious decision to possibly sacrifice this years competition for the future. Tough choice but I made mine. Still will fly in regionals but not nearly as optimistic as I once was.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
370 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:29 AM
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CV you have a tough choice and only you can make it. But understand when I talk about wasting time, I am not talking about days, weeks or even months but rather years. It will take you 4-5 years to really shake out those unproven breeders. Contrary to some opinions stated here, 12 months won't do it. Fly birds out for 2 years to find out if they are really stock quality. Then fly out their young for 2 years, repeat the process by close line breeding out of the best and continue to compress the gene pool. Might take you 4 generations to get where you want to be. The question is can you afford to waste 6-10 years chasing pedigrees? It is your option since you pay the feed bill, just offering some advice based on my past experience. Enjoy your birds regardless!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Scott
2025 posts
Apr 12, 2009
10:01 AM
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Yea Joe, not a game for the faint of heart for sure , it is all about gambling,stratigies ect.
I have had pretty good disapline past few years, and stocked a nice pair out of my A-team at the start of breeding season, really there is only one hen that I am really concerned about at this point,she has a son in stock now and another son in the team with her.
Part of my dilima is that I'm short on good cocks on that side but a little rich on hens, but then we do breed emto enjoy them in the air, and she is no stranger to danger either and has survived, which makes her that much more valuable.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Brett01
27 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:54 PM
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breed them & fly the young. breed 2 rounds then mix the pair keep note 2 see what are produceing the better bird. for your breed next year pairings
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