j .wanless
727 posts
Apr 13, 2009
7:09 AM
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hi cliff
i too have visited heine + know all the people personaly who/s birds started hienes family.i also used to live in the same street as les bezance.and i would say im 99pc sure any of hienes birds that show the crest have come from les/s side.as from time to time les gets the odd 1 turn up.les as had his family i would say for around 30 year + as far as i know as not crossed anything in to them .by that i mean any other roller blood .also where people get the wrong imfo about catching other peoples birds in .it only happened in the midlands which is about 200 miles from me.we would not tolerate that in our area.anyone
found doing that + not returning the bird to the owner would be kicked out of the clubs if in any.
it all depends what you want to call pure.i suppose the likes of bob brown ernie stratford ollie harris
bill barrett would be hard to find thier birds still pure though i think dave mossely has got ollies birds
+ he says they are pure.but what i could not grasp was that ollie had so many diffrent coloured birds in his loft as does dave mossely.now to me when i go in some ones loft + see so many diffrent colours that tells me theyre not that close.most of the people in my area when you go in thier lofts all the birds look the same.as rick +tim decker have noticed.
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Scott
2037 posts
Apr 13, 2009
8:04 AM
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Cliff, now you are trying to muddy the water between different Birmingham Roll Families and mutts , completly different topics.
john w.
I thought it might be interesting to share another perspective on the English birds that Rick Schoening shared with us.
Cliff
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Guys,
I really don't believe there are very many pure strains of rollers in England if any at all. Every time I visited a guy, he would always say that he had birds from at least two different fanciers. Including George Mason. Bill Barratt and Ollie Harris are behind his birds if not more people(possibly Bob Brown too). Nobody in England is hung up on keeping things "pure". I have seen an almond in Bill Barratts loft,as well as John Huntingtons and dilute in various places.
Now granted Bill Barratt made it a point to tell me he didn't breed the almond. But it came from a roller fancier living in Birmingham England!
Ollie Harris even used Barratt birds in his strain. Bill Barratt discovered him using a bird Ollie had caught that Bill recognized he had bred. Using caught pigeons was/is not frowned upon in England. As long as they are a roller.
Americans are really the only group that are adamant about purity. I am sure because of the old PRC mandate of the past.
Now granted, I am pretty confident English roller guys aren't crossing other breeds into their birds. I am just stating the fact that there aren't too many pure strains in England or Europe for that matter. Heine Bijkers are not a pure strain. They have been crossed with Les Basance, George Mason and John Lenihan birds. Heine doesn't even know the difference between recessive red and ash red. He doesn't care, nor do most flyers in other parts of the world. All that matters to them is that they roll and fly properly. Sorry I rambled a bit. Can't fly any babies this morning thanks to that BOP.
rb
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2038 posts
Apr 13, 2009
8:32 AM
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( I played the game of mongrels vs. pure and realized what a waste of time it is. New flyers need to know up front that most of these rare color birds arethe result of another breed being introduced.)
( As they say here, "Bin Der-Dun Dat". THEY WEREN'T FOR ME, PLAIN AND SIMPLE.)
Scott also left out an important detail about Rick's explanation that he got rid of his color birds, not because he had any issues with the birds or their performance, but because he got tired of having to explain why he had them in his loft to the purist guys.
And, Hector, it seems that you are not the only roller man who is having odd feathering pop up from time to time in "pure" Birmingham Rollers. Here is what Rick Schoening had to say about the same thing happening in his loft. Like any good roller man, the tendency is to cull it so nobody knows! LOL!:
(Cliff,the peaks that some families throw have nothing to do with the crossbed shell crests that have been posted here, shave those shell crests off and do they resmeble Birminghams in any way shape and form ? Nope
Cliff what is used for all of these color and crest projects ? Birminghams is what , why do I think you like them so much ? because they are over cooked and can't handle the roll and you don't know how to handle stable pigeons, so you just keep plowing through countless numbers, there are true Birminghams that are no different also I might add.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 8:39 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3238 posts
Apr 13, 2009
8:37 AM
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Cliff, I am not a purist, but I am a pragmatist. The only objective measurement we have been given by history, is the aerial standard. I think it is best for the roller overall, of whatever lineage or color hue, to breed toward that standard. I know there is nothing wrong with advocating it and encouraging it and using my forum to promote it.
Cliff, I do not recommend to you or anyone else with less than what you would call "pure" rollers to rid their lofts of them. It is really none of my business. By the same token, you choose to take on the purists viewpoint and tell them how wrong they are to hold the position that they do by providing volumes of anecdotal stories to prove your point. However, you are using this as proof that purists are wrong for wanting to preserve the Birmingham Roller as a breed.
There is only a fight if 2 people show up, and you like to do that. Consider using your writing efforts to persuade and convince people to your position rather than jab and joust. Provide a reason or a flag for people who agree with you to rally around rather than being a contrarian and provide entertaining online fights.
As you know, no one, not even you with anecdotal stories can prove either side of the coin. We all benefit by breeding to the aerial standard, that should be the goal if we want to fly better rollers.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 8:38 AM
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yellowking
29 posts
Apr 13, 2009
8:46 AM
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Why are you girls arguing about who has the prettiest colored roller?
Pensom solve this problem a long time ago.
Why are we making it such a big deal?
"Any pigeon which cannot turn over at least ten times in a space of about four feet at the maturity of development must be regarded as a common tumbler.” – William H. Pensom
I don’t think anywhere in his book he said anything about cultivating opal bars or any other rare colored rollers within the roller. You see, this is why not a lot folks has their name engraved on the top of the world cup’s list. Because you ladies are too busy trying to rationalize about how you can turn colorful scrubs into rollers.
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when I cull, I pretend I am a ninja
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 9:01 AM
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Hector Coya
463 posts
Apr 13, 2009
3:08 PM
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Hey Scott
You said if you shave of the crest it dont look like a roller.
I bet i can post 2 pictures ,one from a PURE Pensom from my Bob Scott line and one that wasnt born with a crest but came out of 2 crested parents and you whouldnt be able to pick the right one 2 out of 10 times.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1849 posts
Apr 13, 2009
3:09 PM
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Tony
I always appreciate your constructive criticism. I think it is very constructive to ask how breeders arrive at their conclusions after they make sweeping statements and generalizations. If I offended your sensibilities , I apologize. That is not my intention. However you said, " you choose to take on the purists viewpoint and tell them how wrong they are to hold the position that they do by providing volumes of anecdotal stories to prove your point." At no point have I said that anyone was wrong or right for the position they hold on the issue. Mostly I have asked a lot of questions and presented what other veteran roller men have said on the subject. The only "wrong" thing that I have identified is the criticism and attacks on other roller men and their birds based on the family of birds they fly, as we continue to see in Scott's last post to me above.
Did the posts written and signed by Rick Schoening and Rick Mee meet your description as anecdotal? I guess I must try harder to prove my points in the future. Maybe I should just attack them personally, tell them that their pedigree birds are unstable, that they cannot handle these families with a little heat. That sems to be tolerated and acceptable behavior. I think those posts, made by other veteran flyers, speak for themselves. As I am jabbing and jousting can you recall how many times I have talked down about a man's birds or his fly record, or his abilities? And how many times have I (and others) been on the receiving end of those jabs?
I assume I can still defend myself and my opinions when attacked? Or should I just post "been there done that, didn't work. The birds stunk and so do you. Or something along those lines? Not my style and you know it LOL!
Cliff
I think it is necessary for all of us to realize we are not having discussions with our sworn enemy, we are discussing subjects that arise while we interrelate about our passions with Roller pigeons. Often times, because of our passions, things can get heated and things are said that need not be said. I will try to heed my own words. However I love to share opinions based on my experience and the experience of others. That's how we all learn from each other...well most of us, anyway! LOL! I am constantly amazed when two breeders have a similar experience (both will proclaim, "Been there done that") and yet have two totally different outcomes.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 3:46 PM
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1850 posts
Apr 13, 2009
3:10 PM
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I dare ya, Hector! LOL!
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1852 posts
Apr 13, 2009
3:31 PM
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Incidentally, it might be intersting to note, for some of you, that I chose this family of rollers strictly because of the performance that I saw in the air. The feather colors had little to do with it. I had no knowledge of this controversy when I chose to work with them.
Scott
We will put you down as "FOR" the purist point of view.
Thank you,
Cliff
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1853 posts
Apr 13, 2009
3:37 PM
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Tony
If I ever made a statement that would lead anyone to believe that I discourage anyone from choosing a Purebred BIRMINGHAM Roller over a crossbred BIRMINGHAM Roller, there was some misunderstanding. I think It is great that some breeders place such importance of pedigrees or lineage. And I think it is equally important that men feel they have the right to choose their roller families as THEY wish, and not becasue they fear the incrimination of a few very vocal men in the sport who are on a mission.
I do, however, believe that 100% pure Roller and Rollers that are not 100% pure, can BOTH preserve the Birmingham Roller as a breed if both breed to the aerial standard....... BECAUSE THE AERIAL STANDARD DEFINES THE BREED, always has and always will.
I am not trying to prove one is better than the other, as others are doing , both can be EXCELLENT examples of the aerial standard. So shat I am saying is..... the breeders have a choice, NOT that any family is SUPERIOR to the other. Hope that clarifies things a little.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 3:38 PM
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Scott
2039 posts
Apr 13, 2009
4:40 PM
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Hector, there is no telling what all you have popping up over there ,It is like dog crap, if walk amongst it you will end up with it on the bottom of your shoes before long,that is a given.
(Hey Scott
You said if you shave of the crest it dont look like a roller.
I bet i can post 2 pictures ,one from a PURE Pensom from my Bob Scott line and one that wasnt born with a crest but came out of 2 crested parents and you whouldnt be able to pick the right one 2 out of 10 times.
Hector Coya-SGVS)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Hector Coya
464 posts
Apr 13, 2009
7:07 PM
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Yea these are all crest,just not showing the crest,all these came from crested parents.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 9:23 PM
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macsrollers
42 posts
Apr 13, 2009
8:56 PM
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The debate goes on forever. So either a color bird is a Birmingham roller by standard or isn't. If not then a new breed is created. Who wants to name them? CPR's Color performing rollers, MPR's mutt performing rollers, or ?. I believe that color rollers have been around longer then some think, at least some colors. But if a color roller meets the standard described or excels at the standard, then congratulations! You have taken a project and succeeded! I used the analogy earlier of a White German Shepard being bred and they didn't change the name because of the coler as it still met the set standard. Someone replied they wouldn't call a Poodle a German Shepard just because it barks, etc. I agree because a Poodle does not meet the standard set. But a color roller that spins to the standard set or above is something to behold and be proud of, no matter what you want to call it! Enjoy it and have fun trying to recreate and prepetuate it! Sincerely, Don M. Mac's Rollers
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1857 posts
Apr 15, 2009
7:12 AM
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Nice-looking Birmingham Rollers, Hector.
Cliff
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Scott
2042 posts
Apr 15, 2009
2:32 PM
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I see crosses
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Indy
53 posts
Apr 15, 2009
3:54 PM
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Don
I agree with what you are saying. If a colored birds meets that standard of perfoming Birmingham Rollers what is the big deal. If people were only breeding for performance then they would not care what color the bird was as long as it performs.
As far as the quote... "Any pigeon which cannot turn over at least ten times in a space of about four feet at the maturity of development must be regarded as a common tumbler.” – William H. Pensom
I do not see any limitations on color here it only talks about performance. Is it possible to take this to mean that as long as a bird can meet the performance standards mentioned above that it can be called a Roller?
I do understand what the purest are saying about picking birds based on color alone. If a beginner is strictley wanting performance birds they would be better off, most of the time, just sticking to the proven families and tried and true lines. I am not saying that there are not some good colord birds out there but they are harder to come by and you have to be careful when purchasing them because there are probabley more people breeding colored pigeons just to show or just because of the colors than that are breeding out of them for performance alone. There are people out there who do have colored birds and do select for performance alone but there are also people out there who breed only for color. But if a newby has some colord rollers and is pleased with their performance especially if he is just a hobbiest enjoying birds in his back yard then why should he feel he needs to get rid of his "mutts" and get some real performance birds.
I am sure that there are color breeders who are crossing this breed or that breed into thier birds just to get colors especially for the showroom but as long as they are not trying to pass them off as performance bred birds, what is hurt. I have been to lots of pigeon shows where I have talked to people about their birds and they will tell me right out that they do not fly their birds they only breed for colors to show. I do not care how pretty their birds are I would not buy one and expect it to roll. Even if it did come from a line like Turners if they are not breeding for performance and not testing their birds in the air then the chance of getting performance birds out of them is risky.
I feel that there is a big difference in breeding for performance and having some colored birds in your loft and breeding for colored birds just to be breeding for colored birds.
John
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2009 3:56 PM
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toronto15
156 posts
Apr 15, 2009
4:45 PM
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John, I agree that anyone should be able to breed whatever type of pigeons they want. However, I don,t understand how there can be a case against purity if the Birmingham Roller has already evolved.Has different families of rollers evolved differently than other families? And are they all Birmingham Rollers?
I can only imagine it would be nothing but a uphill battle to start out with anything but the best performance birds obtainable if someone wanted to fly and be competitive.
P.S. I still believe it,s a good idea to mix the culls into the street plugs to get them spinning or tumbling so the B.O.P have them to feed on.Glen,confused as usual.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1862 posts
Apr 15, 2009
6:03 PM
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Indy
Good post! What you said about getting good birds applies to any roller family, color or "pedigree". There are as many guys that breed for paper without proving the birds in the air as their are those who breed for color without flying them. But to better the odds of getting good birds,no matter what the family, personally pick them from the air , and even that is not a lead pipe cinch that they will produce.
Cliff
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Indy
55 posts
Apr 15, 2009
7:35 PM
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Glen
I have nothing aginst the purity of the Birmingham Roller and those who want to keep them that way. I do understand that it would be very much of an uphill battle to try to start with anything but the best and be competitive but I also think that there are colored rollers out there that are compeitive. They might be harder to find and I am not saying that someone, especially some one just starting out, should bypass good quality rollers looking for colored rollers but on the other hand if they find some good quality rollers that happen to be a rare color I see no reason to pass them up if you see them fly and they have the qualities you are looking for.
John
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j .wanless
731 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:13 AM
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hi all
glen the brmghm roller has evolved diffrent familys of rollers + also evolved diffrent styles of rolling with in those familys.i have witnessed this many times
just by traveling around the uk i can see the diffrent styles of rolling in certain areas.theres a few of us in the uk that have a good idea who/s birds certain fanciers are flying just by the style of rolling of thier birds.its almost as noticable as all the diffrent colours the diffrent styles of rolling.we all have diffrent oppinions + goals in life .so what i want out of my birds is not what every one else wants out of thier birds.my area is middlesbrough + it is known all around the world that our area breed for speed.other areas breed for style .
i read a post earlier today that the old timers way back flew the same type of birds then as we all do now
im afraid i dont go along with that at all.one of the main reasons is because in thier days there was no cars or very few,so they only seen the birds in thier area.most people in the south + midland area of the uk
fly what i call the soft rollers .birds that roll + break massive with decent enough style but without that humph as we say .now if you want to see the hole in rollers in my oppinion you will see it in these type of rollers.the pigeons we breed in our area have what we call the blur .over the years ive had both types so i know what im talking about.both types are good to watch when performing at thier best its just a personal choice what we want.to me when i have seen the hole in a bird it rolls in a sort of lazy easy roll with what i would say is easy on the eye.but then when seeing the birds that are flew in our area + in only a hand full of fanciers in other parts of the uk .i can guarantee you will not see any hole + almost all the visitors we get prefare our birds.so like i said like the many diffrent colouring of the roller there is also many diffrent styles of rolling
and its funny that no one ever seems to pick up on this.
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Scott
2044 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:33 AM
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Without the proper gene pool to back it up I see every reason to pass up such a bird , whether it be a color cross or pure
(They might be harder to find and I am not saying that someone, especially some one just starting out, should bypass good quality rollers looking for colored rollers but on the other hand if they find some good quality rollers that happen to be a rare color I see no reason to pass them up if you see them fly and they have the qualities you are looking for.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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0221
181 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:43 AM
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John,
I will say, I have seen rollers spin so fast that they would appear to be the size of a pro baseball and smooth as milk. To coin a phrase, they are as rare as rocking horse sh#t. But 95% of the birds I've seen called the no hole roller are either rolling out of round and look like they're beating themselfs to death or there wings are sticking out like 2 boat ores blocking any chance of viewing there body's.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 10:58 AM
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