bigwilly
914 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:42 AM
|
Who flys them in competition and what did you think of them?
BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
|
glenn
234 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:17 AM
|
Hello:
Just like color when you breed for muffs you will have more problems than you really dont wont to have to deal with. If the muffs are there dont worry about them, just breed fro the speed, style, kitting abilty and all the other things that make up the Brimingham Roller........Glenn
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
230 posts
Apr 12, 2009
11:52 AM
|
What I thank of them is that the birds with little boots could be Birmingham Rollers, birds with muffs would have come out of crossing Flying West of England Tumblers to rollers. JDA
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 11:55 AM
|
glenn
235 posts
Apr 12, 2009
12:43 PM
|
There are some fanciers who have bred heavy muffed birds that werent crossed.....J.Leroy Smith, Frank Lavin, Jerry Lynn, Paul Gomez just to name a few.....my birds have what I call a real nasty muff gene going thru them and I never crossed them or the person I got them from.....Glenn
|
3757
1220 posts
Apr 12, 2009
1:08 PM
|
Glenn - You are right. Most all of the Smith birds were heavily muffed.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 1:09 PM
|
pat66
314 posts
Apr 12, 2009
4:42 PM
|
I fly some JLSmith birds that are muffed and am very happy with them,BOOTED MUFFED OR CLEAN LEGGED,the roll is all that matters
----------
Pat
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 3:43 AM
|
JDA
GOLD MEMBER
231 posts
Apr 12, 2009
4:50 PM
|
La Ron -Heavily muffed or heavily butted? Boots cover the foot like that of a satinette.All the photos I recall of J.L. Smiths birds have clean leg or stocking-legged or booted,but I have never seen a two of three inch muff on his birds. Could you post pics of JLS muffed birds.I would stand corrected. Thanks Joe
|
pat66
316 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:07 PM
|
----------
Pat Super fast JL Smith bird!
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 3:42 AM
|
glenn
236 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:09 PM
|
Hello:
You will not see a picture of a Heavy Muffed bird from J.L. Smith because he did not breed for it. Someone who has Smith or Pensom birds did breed for it, and got big muffs along with the problems associated with it. Like I said before, if you don't breed for it, it wont be a problem, if you do it will. Also I have seen some birds that have been crossed with West of England Tumblers, you can spot them because they have hocks, where a Roller does not.....Glenn
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:10 PM
|
pat66
317 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:13 PM
|
HELLO
Pure JLSmith bird!
----------
Pat
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 3:44 AM
|
glenn
237 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:20 PM
|
Hello Pat:
Read my post...Smith did NOT breed for it.....But people who have Smith birds HAVE...also the above bird has no Hocks....Glenn
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:21 PM
|
pat66
318 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:25 PM
|
Sorry Glenn what are HOCKS? Never heard of them, still learning I guess, Always something new
----------
Pat
|
3757
1221 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:26 PM
|
Bill Pensom stated that they were all were muffed at one time.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:26 PM
|
Scott
2036 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:41 PM
|
Glenn you are spot on, the problem is when some start trying to breed for it, they take their eye off the ball , like color beeding even within the breed you can't do both.
And some keep wanting more, that is where the crosses come in, your screwed either way.
Jack Meyers had some Smith black muffs from Jerry Lynn some years aga, sweet little birds, but were never breed for the muffs, honestly they would be a major pain to deal with, plus blood quills would be just one more problem to deal with performance wise.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:44 PM
|
pat66
321 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:45 PM
|
JLSmiths breed for velosity and depth-muffs a bonus!
----------
Pat
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:57 PM
|
glenn
239 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:54 PM
|
The name is J. Leroy Smith........Glenn
|
pat66
322 posts
Apr 12, 2009
5:57 PM
|
?SORRY!
----------
Pat
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 3:46 AM
|
glenn
240 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:01 PM
|
Thanks.....Glenn
|
Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
187 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:05 PM
|
----------I banded two of my old Smith line today. Both parents clean legged..one squeaker will be heavy muff and the other clean legged..the whole family is like this..some with, some without...but all with the spin...single pair boxes..I get around 60-70% quality birds. Bruce
De Oppresso Liber
|
3757
1222 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:26 PM
|
Longroller - You hit the nail on the head when you stated it is in the gene pool. People come to erroneous conclusions when they see a family that has the gene heavily in the line like the Smiths and a lot of other old family lines and they think a fancier breeds for this trait if a large percentage of the line has grouse or boots. It is amazing how conclusions are made.
Any fanicer who concentrates only on color, muff, weight, pedigree or any nonsense like that you are doing a disservice to the Birmingham roller.
|
fransrollers
19 posts
Apr 12, 2009
6:32 PM
|
to 3757 does that mean il be geting lots of web feet becouse my birds cary it in ther lines
|
bigwilly
915 posts
Apr 12, 2009
7:04 PM
|
Thanks guys for the info. I have seen some really good muffs at Paul Gomez house in the 80s 90s. In fact he gave some to me and my best friend Timm. I can remember as clear as day. We were juiced and they were faster than shhhhhhh
----------
BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
|
ezeedad
942 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:16 PM
|
Thanks Will,
Some guys haven't even tried to produce muffs that spin, but they seem to have strong opinions about them and have drawn conclusions which don't seem to be based on their personal experience but rather on some sort of conjecture.
I have known for a long time (decvades) that muffs are a feature that really has nothing to do with roll.
Paul G
|
cv rollers
328 posts
Apr 12, 2009
8:45 PM
|
I've seen some real fast muffs, fly side by side with cleaned legged ,just as good and just as fast,deep also ..JMO
|
JMUrbon
687 posts
Apr 12, 2009
9:16 PM
|
Paul the problem I see with your last post is the part were you say " some guys haven't even tried to produce muffs that spin". I have seen some really nice muffed birds as well as grouse legged birds. However I feel that once you try to produce them you have lost sight of the real goal. Whick is to breed for the spin first and formost.I do however agree with you in stating that one has nothing to do with the other. so as long as you are concentrating on the spin and the birds with the goods have muffs. Use them. Just don't use them because they have muffs. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 9:29 PM
|
ezeedad
944 posts
Apr 12, 2009
11:00 PM
|
Joe,
I tried to produce muffs that spin, and I never "lost sight of the real goal"
I guess I could ask you.. If a breeder was to breed for simultaneous performance would they also have lost sight of the goal which is to breed for spin first and foremost?
How about if they breed for kitting? Again, are they taking their eye off the goal?
I saw some great looking fish on your site..!! The pigeons were nice too..
Paul G
|
pigeon pete
283 posts
Apr 13, 2009
4:23 AM
|
I find the muffs do interfere with my breeding program because I find them a bit of a nuciance. I had a few grouse legs turn up and never took any notice, but I then got more heavily feathered legs, and now I produce the odd muffed bird. They roll just the same as the cleaned legged birds but they are harder to ring with an A size ring, and are harder to keep clean.
I have stopped breeding from pairs that both have grouse legs or any muffed birds.
This obviously reduces the number of bird that I can pick my breeders from. I am hoping to illiminate the grouse legs from my family, but some of my best rollers are grouse legged so they get used in the stock loft.
Pete
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 4:24 AM
|
pigeon pete
284 posts
Apr 13, 2009
4:28 AM
|
I'm not sure of the genetics for feathered leggs but I have found that you don't need to breed for it.
If you have it, it seems to spread with very little encouragement,lol
Maybe it is a dominant factor? Not sure, but once you get the grouse legs they soon progress to muffs, or that is what I have found by just breeding for performance and ignoring the feathering on the legs.
Pete.
|
ezeedad
945 posts
Apr 13, 2009
8:51 AM
|
Yeah Pete,
The muffs are a lot harder to deal with for banding. If you miss getting the band on them by a day or two it'e too late. I get different sized bands for the muffs and also some clip on bands for the ones that I have missed. Also sometimes I band the birds high to avoid the big feathers. You have to be carefull that the band doesn't get two tight and cut off circulation when the feathers grow.
It's more trouble, but I just like them... a lot..!!
Paul G
|
JMUrbon
688 posts
Apr 13, 2009
4:42 PM
|
Paul I really didn't think you had. I was just using your post as a marter to get the point accross. I believe without a doubt that you know what you are doing with your birds. As for you question as to loosing sight of the spin when looking for kitting, simultaneous breaking and so on. I always lok for the spin first. The rest are also deciding factors in order to get into my stock loft but the spin is and will always be first. Thanks for the look at my site. Those fish were caught a few years ago most of them with Don Penny. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
katyroller
368 posts
Apr 14, 2009
8:33 PM
|
Joe, I have to agree with Paul on this, I'm not disagreeing with you though. I agree spin should be at the top of your list of qualities but it isn't the only thing. There are breeders out there that breed for spin but also choose to breed for a certain color or trait at the same time. I'm not talking about cross breeding, I'm talking about established colors and or features. As far as I'm concerned these breeders have taken on a near impossible task but that's their decision so I don't understand the need that some have to attack these breeders and their birds.
|
JMUrbon
690 posts
Apr 14, 2009
8:54 PM
|
I can certainly see your point. I am not one to really care what a guy does in his yard. I do believe that the quickest way to succeed in this hobby is by focusing on the roll. To many variables will undoubtable slow you down. Now that being said I have seen some great spinning birds that were andalusions and almonds. What I have not seen is the opals,white bars and other rare colors that could compare. That is my personl opinion based on what I have seen but that does not mean there arent some out there that are great. I am not going to try to change somebodies breeding program and I dont expect anybody to try to change mine. Joe
----------
J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
|
katyroller
369 posts
Apr 15, 2009
6:47 AM
|
Joe, I agree 100% with you on your last post. Tracey
|
0221
179 posts
Apr 16, 2009
7:13 AM
|
There's a good lessen to be learned here. If featherd feet can turn up, not being bred for, I quess its safe to say, roll downs, sloppy roll, wing changers, non kitters and the like will turn up also if its in the back ground. Makes Me happy to know that my breeding out of my best was the right thing to do.
|
3757
1223 posts
Apr 16, 2009
9:42 AM
|
Maybe I am missing something but muff and grouse legs never left. They have always,always been part of the birmingham rollers phenotype (both clean leg and muff). It is not like all of a sudden it apppeared.
|
0221
180 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:11 AM
|
3757, If Your responding to My post 179. What I was trying to say is that roll downs, nonperfomers,nonkitters and the like, could turn up if thats in there back ground. I've bred 4 generations of clean legged birds and out pops feather footed young. One with one without. So what I was simply meaning is as harmless as grouse legs maybe, why would a person want to breed from serious faults. Am I explaning it better or am I just a bad writer. LOL LOL.
|
macsrollers
48 posts
Apr 16, 2009
9:23 PM
|
I have found that when I inbred my Doug Ouellette 272 stuff I got a few muffs up to 2 inches. I had gotten plenty of groused leg birds before and some slight muffs but when a few longer muffs appeared that surprised me. Also both these longer muffed birds had extremely webbed feet. My thought is as I jammed up the blood these traits from back in that line of birds were brought out. One is a great producer of spin and hasn't thrown me anything close to as long muffs, though I have moved away from jamming that stuff up any further. I don't breed specifically for muffs and some that I have been given to fly out and the few I have bred myself always were so dirty on their muffs and feet in the kit box that I didn't like that. But I sure have seen some beautiful muffs in the show cages at the lawn shows. If you enjoy it go for it!
Don M. Mac's Rollers LVRC
|
