0221
198 posts
Apr 19, 2009
10:07 AM
|
On another post J.Wanless says that Graham Dexter got His (pigeons) from Lenny Harris. The family produced crest's. Several english flyers, fly Graham's family and there birds produce crest's as well. John say's these Ladds don't like them and don't breed off them. Are Birmingham roller's and these Lenny Harris birds the same? or what did the English guys cross into them to give them crest's. I wonder if they call these B.R. in England. Did the name Birmingham roller start in England or U.S.A. after Bill Penson got here? I quess cross breeding stated across the pond.
|
LittleJohn
83 posts
Apr 19, 2009
10:13 AM
|
My question....is do they roll?
|
Scott
2053 posts
Apr 19, 2009
10:26 AM
|
Don't confuse "peaks" with the shell crests from the crosses.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
j .wanless
738 posts
Apr 19, 2009
11:08 AM
|
hi all
0221 as scott says we call what scott calls peaks we call them crests.ive read in really old mags in fact ive got it out to check for you its in an article from the pigeon + pigeon world the headline says brmgn rollers 1870-1890 so i would guess they called them brmg rollers a long time ago.but going back to the crests as thats what we call them little john i would say 99pc of them either roll or roll down.i have seen lots of them over the years + very few if any have never rolled.but theres more to just rolling + the crests have no sence at all.theres a few people here that breed them + dont mind them because they roll.but if they had any respect for the original breeders of thier birds they would not breed them as like ive said les graham + peter do not like them at all.every one here knows i hate them + i speak my mind about them.but what they cant see is why they never win any of the major flys with these birds especially as they are supposed to be so good.the reason beign is that they never last they kill themselves.so john they do roll but most of them forget to stop or roll at the wrong time what a shame lol.
|
0221
201 posts
Apr 19, 2009
11:20 AM
|
John, Thanks for that information. Byron Gable bought a kitt of pigeons from Les. If I'm not mistaken, they were the birds Les flew in the world cup 87or88 and I believe there was 3 in that kitt. The crest as You call them or peaks as Scott calls them were pretty pronouced. John do You have a clue as to what started it?
|
155
1018 posts
Apr 19, 2009
11:29 AM
|
ON WINNERS WITH SPINNERS BY GRAHAM DEXTER THEY SAY ABOUT THIS DARK CHEQUER-CRESTED COCK BIRD BRED BY LEZ BEZANCE: PROBABLY THE BEST COCK I'VE SEEN IN THE ROLL FOR MANY YEARS.DEEPISH(2 SEC.)VERY TIGHT,COMPACT AND FREQUENTLY(CONSISTENTLY)PERFECT.COULD YOU SEE THE CREST WHILE IT'S ROLLING?
----------
EVILLOFT'S
|
0221
202 posts
Apr 19, 2009
11:44 AM
|
155,
When I was at Les's house, I saw very fast rollers. I watched for 4or5 days in a roe. He had a bird ring#220 a very nice roller. She had no crest/peak, but there were some in the kitt that did.
|
Alohazona
612 posts
Apr 19, 2009
11:51 AM
|
Rich Hayes strain of birds is built around 3 birds,one was an AERC rose bowl champion bred by Graham Dexter.This bird was a aquired by Dave Goss when he visited England and was transferred to Rich.Rich also has Houghton/kumro and jaconette to his base.He has bred out the Higgens from what he had...Aloha,Todd
|
0221
203 posts
Apr 19, 2009
12:15 PM
|
Todd,
Did he ever say anything about crest/peaks turnig up?
|
Alohazona
613 posts
Apr 19, 2009
12:55 PM
|
I'll have to ask him.I fly his flathead line and have not seen them.They are very small pigeons and do get feathering on the feet,mostly throwback type of fedders.Then again if he did get peaks or crests,I guess flathead rollers would not be a fitting name for his line.....Aloha,Todd
|
j .wanless
739 posts
Apr 19, 2009
1:39 PM
|
hi all
0221 when did you visit les as i used to live across the street from him in the middle of him + peter.
but the 1st time any of us from our area seen a crest was in the late 70/s at grahams.dont get me wrong les doesnt breed them all the time but a lot of people that fly his birds get them popping out now + then.as ive said 99pc of people here will have nothing to do with them as theyre too unstable.another thing you may be intrested in is no one here breeds muffed rollers.though 1 or 2 do get quite heavy groused legged birds .but again theyre mainly at g.mason + peter handy gets the odd 1.in our area they dont exist at all we will not have them.
|
0221
204 posts
Apr 19, 2009
2:34 PM
|
Hi John, I was there in September of 88. If you were around perhaps we met and I don't remember. I stayed with graham about a week, Graham dropped us off along with His car at Les's. graham went in to work with another fellow so les could use his car to drive us around. I remember meetin George Kitson, Libby, George Mason, Bob Brown, We stayed with Bill Barrett for 2 or 3 days. Bill Barrett had muffed rollers, not many but a few. We went to bill O'calehans, or how ever You spell his name. Bill McCray and on and on. John all My birds are from England. I don't breed from muffed rollers but they pop up now and then. I might say fewer and fewer as time goes on. I've been with these 21 years.
|
Hector Coya
469 posts
Apr 19, 2009
2:48 PM
|
From what i have heard,Hine Bijcker,has bred crest.And he has done verry well.
Hector Coya-SGVS
----------
The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
|
155
1019 posts
Apr 19, 2009
3:58 PM
|
According to Levi, and other authorities, the Birmingham was developed in its present state in the past two hundred or so years by those breeders of Birmingham England. It's original importation was by way of Canada and then into the United States.
The crested varieties are somehow throwbacks in their genetic make up, and Levi also had described the crest not normal in Birminghams.
With this inbreeding we do it is no wonder that other things might pop up. After all the purpose of inbreeding is to purge the undesirable qualitys and inhance the better qualities. Thus new strains are always being developed.
There are many varieties in the Tumbler families that have crests, and with them it is considered normal since it is bred for. Just my thoughts on it.
RF Callahan
----------
EVILLOFT'S
|
j .wanless
740 posts
Apr 20, 2009
7:56 AM
|
hi all
0221 the birds that george mason has that produce the muffs are probaly from the same birds that you seen at bill barretts place.as george got a lot of bills birds.but what we call muffs you probaly call heavy grouse as ive never seen rollers with muffs like i see on some of the birds on your side.may be we should start to breed them at least they will be warm in the winter lol.
|
0221
210 posts
Apr 20, 2009
9:22 AM
|
Hi John, The ones I get just cover there toe's. But like I said, There comming fewer and fewer. I'd still like to know what started that crest/peak thing in those birds. Did graham happen to mention it? I never thought to as Him. I like to say thanks for providing alot of information on the history of rollers. I always enjoy your post's.
|
155
1020 posts
Apr 20, 2009
8:48 PM
|
Jose,
Graham's blue bar white flight hen he got from Ken WHite is where the crests came from. Never heard the Lenny Harris story. They are not cross breds.
rb
by rick schoening
----------
EVILLOFT'S
|
j .wanless
741 posts
Apr 21, 2009
8:32 AM
|
hi all
155 graham 1st bought birds from ken white when he was 12 he bought 2 pair he only mentioned 1 pair been very good in the air which were a red cheq oddside + a blue saddle hen.when i 1st got to know graham in the 70/s most of his birds were oddsides + saddles blacks + blues.but i also heard he had birds from lenny harris as did frank pickles + george mason.and because franks birds produce crests + grahams also produce them it was thought thats where the crests started from .but reading a piece from george mason he says lenny was flying birds from bob brown + ollie harris.george masons birds also started from a tortshell hen that he had got off lenny + a red cheq that he got off bill barret.but i dont think george breeds the crests i will have to ask him. george bought 21 y/brds off lenny harris in 1978 for £1 each
and flew 13 of them in a best kit fly + won the aerc with them.so 0221 still cant explain where the crests started from but i think graham or george may know next time i talk to either of them i will try + find out for you.
|
0221
217 posts
Apr 21, 2009
10:03 AM
|
Thanks John, I'm Not trying to work you to death, But I have another question.Rick Schoening said on another post, In response to true bred B.R.. That even in england there are no pure breds. Meaning that no one flys straight Bill Barrett or Ernie Stratford, Or Bob Brown or O.D. Harris birds. Do You happen to know any flyers that keep those line pure.
|
j .wanless
742 posts
Apr 21, 2009
10:49 AM
|
hi 0221
not a problem just glad i can help .rick is wrong there is a few who still have some of the birds you mentioned but not that many.i know a lad who as just sold up that had bobs birds i also bought 10 birds off bill o callaghan for a friend of mine that were pure bill barrets birds but some of them were too old so i got in touch with some one else who had the same birds to get a few younger hens for him.apparently dave mosseley has ollies birds .theres lots of people that say thier birds are from some of the old timers.
but i would not swear by it.without been disrespectful
most people do not want thier birds no more as we have moved on by breeding a better roller in our day .theres a whole new era of breeders that people are more intrested in getting birds off.but what people dont realise that even the old timers including pensom crossed thier birds to other peoples to try + make them better.most of us have our own strains now that people prefare + a lot of us keep them pure.but there is people that do cross thier birds + are succesful with them.take pete handy for instance w/c winner im sure his birds are what pete calls his mongerals birds from here + there but he as done really well in the past.so there is a few that still have the old stuff around .but if you look in the records they dont seem to have the same success with them as thier origanal owners .but my own theory is theres much more compatition now than back then.
|
pigeon pete
287 posts
Apr 21, 2009
11:01 AM
|
0221,
I don't know about Ollie, but I know most top flyers like Bob Brown didn't have true or pure strains in the way you mean. Bob would regularly bring in a cock from other flyers such as Bill Or Ollie.
Ernie had a lot of pigeons through his hands over the years, I'm not saying he was a feather merchant or anything, but he was a crafty cockney,lol
I bought some birds from him at the AERC show one year, and when I rang Bill Barrett to transfer the ring numbers, they were bred by a guy called Smith from the Midlands! The thing was he had his rose bowl winning bird in the show and I asked him what he would sell it for, and I could have bought it for £20. That was around £100 in todays money and so I bought 3 or 4 others from him at £5 each and they all turned out to be rubbish,lol
The Birds may be pure Birmingham Rollers, but very few strains have been bred in isolation from the rest of the fancy for many years. I know people who say they have pure Harris, but they have bred them for years and are different I am sure, to what Ollie would have if he was still alive. I have a few 'pure' Harris birds that came from a flyer who bought his original birds from Ollie 25 years ago, so are they still Harris birds? I also have I pure bird left from my foundation strain. I bought a couple of pairs in 1983 from a guy who in turn bought 3 pair from Wilf Portman in 1967, and said he had never outcrossed them, so I suppose after 40 years it was time for some new blood anyway. In 1984 I was told by 3 top roller flyers that I would never do any good with them because they were show rollers, the next year I beat all 3 of them in competition with a kit comprised of 10 of my 'show rollers' and the rest were mix of cross bred tumblers/rollers that didn't even roll. I still smile when I think of that one,lol
regards,
Pete.
|
0221
219 posts
Apr 21, 2009
12:21 PM
|
Pete& John, Thank you very much for sharing that. Its just down to what it takes to keep the true Birmingham roller alive. I want to see lightning fast speed, straight as an arrow with enough duration to be a stand out in the air. The more the merrier. I like the birds to fly so close together you could throw a hulahoop over them and stop, or stand and break, Thats what make my clock tic.
|
PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2889 posts
Apr 21, 2009
12:30 PM
|
In 1984 I was told by 3 top roller flyers that I would never do any good with them because they were show rollers, the next year I beat all 3 of them in competition with a kit comprised of 10 of my 'show rollers' and the rest were mix of cross bred tumblers/rollers that didn't even roll. I still smile when I think of that one,lol
So Pete you beat them with your show rollers,,,lol...thats a good one..
----------
Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
|
true spin
81 posts
Apr 21, 2009
1:59 PM
|
hi 0221 i am raising birds imported from bob brown in 1983 jay lucarelli bought them from bob brown in 83 while he was in england & hasent crossed them to any other birds since then & i also have some of bill baretts birds from jay also kept to the same strain so there are still birds out there if you just snoop around to find them
thanks rick
true spin
Country Creek Lofts
Ontario Canada
|
0221
220 posts
Apr 21, 2009
2:17 PM
|
True spin, I got some birds from Abdul, when He lived in Vancover, Some of the ones I got were bred by Ross Vito out of Abduls stock. According to the pedigree'S Ross Wrote on them they all came from Bill Barrett. I'm still breeding some down off the Dunn Badge Cock & the bronze hen. I'm Happy with them. How are they doing for you?
Last Edited by on Apr 21, 2009 2:18 PM
|
sp 19
2 posts
Apr 23, 2009
6:51 PM
|
Hey roller guys I know or have met all people mentioned above I grew up on a thoroubred race horse breeding farm we never looked past 3rd dame and rarily past 2nd why are you guys obcest with these old blood lines and whether they are pure or not has no one out there not improved on these 15+ year old birds
|
0221
227 posts
Apr 23, 2009
7:03 PM
|
sp 19, I'm always interested in learning something new. How did You establish your stud of rollers?
|
sp 19
3 posts
Apr 24, 2009
6:31 PM
|
0221 you breed the best you have to the best you have and go from there I never line breed anymore I have tried everything you can imagine but truth is if a pair hits and produce a bird worthy of stocking never seperate them they will produce more and breed thier young to the best in your loft soon you could have 5 or 6 clone brothers and sisters that you can breed to anything in the loft.Line breeding presents lots of problems not the lest of wich is feather quality
|
0221
229 posts
Apr 25, 2009
4:39 AM
|
Oh thats interesting.What do you call this type of breeding?
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2009 4:47 AM
|
j .wanless
743 posts
Apr 25, 2009
5:11 AM
|
hi all
sp 19 you say you have tried every type of breeding.
and over the years so have i. like you i used to just pair best to best.but for me best to best is just a guessing game + we are not guaranteed to breed good rollers off our best cock + hen.so i decided to work around 2 cocks that produced for me to most hens i paired them to.so like you i know we can get problems by line breeding or in breeding.but i built my whole family around those 2 cocks.in breeding + line breeding + i can honestly say i have not looked back.
when using best to best breeding i would win the odd comp at local level.but since changing my breeding regime i have won just about everything at local + national level.so from just hoping to win a comp ive moved on to expecting to win all comps.and to me that only happened after i changed my way of breeding.
im not telling every one thats how they should breed .
but it has certainly worked for me.
|
Alohazona
616 posts
Apr 25, 2009
9:52 AM
|
j.wanless,
That's very interesting....good info....Aloha,Todd
|
sp 19
6 posts
Apr 25, 2009
7:50 PM
|
sp 19 to j.wanless i am glad you are having great success in your breeding and flying programs good for you.The best pigeon i ever owned was a hen JS 19 it was a chance breeding the last 2 birds that was left a dunn badge hen to a mealy bar cock JS 182 thier youngsters wher outstanding and the young produced the best spinners for years in my loft and other lofts i swithed the pairing thinking of going places the hen always produced but nothing compared to the 1st mating.If i had kept the pair together i would have lots of them great birds as she died and so to did the greatist birds i ever seen.
|