XtraDeepRoller
1 post
May 03, 2009
4:21 PM
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Here's a good topic for discussion.
Teamwork. I'm talking big instantaneous breaks. In my opinion, this type of teamwork has to be bred for, it is not present in every family of rollers. If we only concentrate on depth and quality of spin, we can lose concert performance. We need to stock birds that have the whole package. No matter how good or deep a bird spins, if we make allowances for other deficencies of any particular bird, and then use such a birds in our stud, we should not be surprised when those deficencies show up and become engrained in our family of birds.
Being very observant of our birds, and using those observations when choosing birds for the stock loft, is the best way to build a family of birds that has got it all.
X
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jnyce
707 posts
May 03, 2009
4:28 PM
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i see its your first post welcome my friend were r u from
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jerry t
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Roll Down
62 posts
May 03, 2009
5:49 PM
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I personally would much rather have depth and ( most importantly to me )quality of performance than birds that just break together.
This wouldn't win me many flys maybe, but I can live with that.
Bill Pensom explained it very well on page # 119-120 of his book: "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon."
P.S. "Welcome to the site! "
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XtraDeepRoller
2 posts
May 03, 2009
6:04 PM
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Roll Down,
Thanks for the welcome.
There is no reason that you can't have it all. This fabulous bird is capable of doing all 3, as long as you don't settle for less in your breeding choices.
Pensom was a great roller man and we in the USA owe him our great respect and gratitude, but Pensom is dead. He was not a god, and his book is not a bible. It's a good reference book, but we owe it to the breed to take this bird as far as it can go and not settle for compromises.
X
Last Edited by on May 03, 2009 6:14 PM
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Will Winsome
14 posts
May 03, 2009
6:29 PM
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spoken like a true novice!
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XtraDeepRoller
3 posts
May 03, 2009
7:02 PM
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Sorry Will, been in this a long time. LOL.
X
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2915 posts
May 03, 2009
8:32 PM
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Welcome X ..I have watch my birds perform individuals and nothing turns me on more than watching them all break together in unison..and if they roll deep with good quality speed and style what a sight for sore eyes Huh... where you from X ?....
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Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
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j .wanless
751 posts
May 04, 2009
2:26 AM
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hi all
good post x for your 1st 1.i totally agree with you about stocking the right birds.im afraid too many people are still living in the past + dont realise in pensoms time there was not the amount of good quality deep fast rollers as today.ive seen both sides in as deep fast individuals + deep fast kits.in the 80/s i lived opposite les bazance in the uk.he was then flying the best quality birds any where in the world.
and thats not me saying this every one who visited him said it.but they never worked as a kit only individualy.but with unbelievable speed + style.
about 5 years ago i was visiting friends in s/africa.
i seen 1 of the deepest working kits i have ever seen in my life breaking huge again with brilliant speed + style.so unlike what bill pensom said all those years ago i have witnessed it + had friends with me to witness it so it does exist.like i said we have moved on leaps + bounds from pensoms day + its about time people started to realise this.like ralph said theres nothing better to see than a full kit rolling with great speed + style beats individuals any day.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3286 posts
May 04, 2009
4:11 AM
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"...and papabear, someday I want the deepeist, most fastesest, most stylishist birds everest seen on the face of the most biggest planetest. Ever..."
Of course, everyone wants better today than yesterday, but how is the Pensom book is no longer relevant for today? Knowledge is built one fact on top of another, one experience on top of another. It is not bestowed by turning away from the documentation and insight of our hobby forebears.
Pensom took a risk by offering us his thoughts on paper (in a book and articles). Why not put your thoughts, theories and experiences into a book and have it speak all truth for all of time? When others say Pensom was sooo yesterday, what did he say that was soooo not correct?
BTW, I have the toughest time watching individuals break when 19 others are distracting me. In other words, no human eye one can see 20 individuals perform at once, they see one 20 bird break. Through abstraction their minds are filling in the performance of individuals.
And I am not telling you your eyes did not see what you say they saw. By the way, I look forward to your next book or would that be your first? lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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j .wanless
752 posts
May 04, 2009
4:24 AM
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hi all
tony the pensom book is one of the best books ive read on rollers but its out dated .roller comps have become unreconisable since his day.im talking about the uk now not your side,but in pensoms day here in the uk there was no such thing as a comp with only rollers as there is to day so there for pensom could not comment.in his day people here flew kits with a mixture of deep rollers twizzlers + badges which are a type of tumbler.ive noticed the huge diffrence here in the last 30 years of flying rollers in comps .so can you imagine the diffrence bill pensom would see in 50 years.
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pigeon pete
295 posts
May 04, 2009
4:29 AM
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Hi Guys,
Most posts get sidetracked and often it is the Pensom relevance debate,lol
If you have good stock that is capable of producing quality roll, then selecting the right ones for the stock loft is mostly done by the birds themselves.
When looking for stock birds we should have already discounted all the birds that.
Do not roll to a high standard.
Do not fly the time and drop early.
Do not kit well by flying high, or leaving the kit after rolling etc etc.
Weak birds with any known physical fault or weakness.
Are either very infrequent or overly frequent.
Have poor control to the point where they bump on release or landing.
Have any other flying fault that you don't wish to propogate.
If you have any birds left after that process of illimination, you will have rollers that kit well and roll well. So far the birds have picked themselves and it is only observation, not rocket science to use an overused phrase.
From now on if you have a choice left you can pick those birds that go on the breaks, and as long as the first priority is quality of roll, and kitting, you will eventually end up with teams that break together in bigger numbers.
As to frequency, if all the other factors are there, then I would say, as frequent as you can get while still maintaining all the other qualities.
If a bird rolls with quality to a good depth, kits well, yet still goes on most of the turns, with little or preferably no rolling at the 'wrong time' then this would be my ideal for the stock loft.
This is how to get those teams with kit chemistry through breeding, but great teams can be put together that have not been bred specificaly for this trait, by very careful selection, if you have the pigeons available with the right traits, and you have the patience and obsevational skills to do it.
regards,
Pete
Last Edited by on May 04, 2009 4:44 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3288 posts
May 04, 2009
4:37 AM
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j.wanless and pigeon_pete, so do you think Pensom would have welcomed today's competition birds and if so, besides his chapter on competition, what other topics in his book do you think would have been different?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3289 posts
May 04, 2009
4:39 AM
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pigeon_pete, I agree with your post #295 regarding the birds we should discount out of hand.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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j .wanless
753 posts
May 04, 2009
4:43 AM
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hi all
pete thats exactly where a lot of us in the boro went wrong years ago.we bred for quality alone + did not notice some of the other faults our birds had.i can still see a lot of it in our birds today.its no good breeding off top quality rollers if they have other faults.on my 1st trip to africa i come across a lot of the mistakes there that we had made years before.
hopefuly me + morris can take a lot of credit for helping them to get away from those faults.it was another english man that had talked them into going that way in the 1st place.but i will tell you about that another time.
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pigeon pete
296 posts
May 04, 2009
5:05 AM
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Hi, Tony and John.
Sorry but my last post sent itself when I was still writing so I have edited it.
To expand a little. The post was relating to flyers who have good quality birds to start with.
If your are not happy with the overall quality of your birds then improving the quality of the roll should always be the first priority in my opinion, all the other things are secondary. Its no used having pigeons that kit like glue, and break instantaneously, once a minute or more in huge numbers if the roll is shite.
Pete.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3290 posts
May 04, 2009
5:10 AM
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pigeon_pete, good post and insight. Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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pigeon pete
297 posts
May 04, 2009
5:18 AM
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Tony,
I can only guess, because I never met Bill Pensom, but I think he would still have a wary eye on the competition rules to ensure that the flys encouraged the true rollers. Bill's experience of competition was in the Black country of England early on in the 20th century, and these competitions were not set up with rollers in mind, rather they favoured tumblers, and so his adice on competitions was coloured by that experience. Confusion may arise when we see that clubs went by the name of 'Roller Club' when in fact they were/are clubs for competition tumblers.
I'm sure he would have written his book differently if he were to write it today, maybe he would have used 19th cenury parlance as opposed to 18th century,lol but as to what topics he would now include?
Maybe the dangers of cross breeding :)
or breeding for simultaneous performance versus individual performance?
I'm sure that he would have updated himself on the current science of genetics and perhaps modified his advice on breeding methods in the light of this newer knowledge,
Who Knows?
Regards,
Pete
Last Edited by on May 04, 2009 5:20 AM
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j .wanless
754 posts
May 04, 2009
5:25 AM
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hi all
pete it also works the other way which i have seen many many times .its no good breeding the best quality birds in the world if they are flying + rolling on thier own.
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katyroller
387 posts
May 04, 2009
7:31 AM
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XtraDeepRoller, I like your post. I also believe that concert performance has to be bred for. What I agree with most is that a kit needs to have all the elements, concert performance, depth and proper style. I watched many kits back in the 90's that had concert performance, half turns and three quarter turns but they seriously lacked in depth past 10 feet. I am now seeing more kits that are showing good depth and style but they are not showing the bigger breaks.
My only issue with concert performance is, trying to accurately assess roll quality on a large break. On a large break it is impossible for the human eye to focus on each bird that is rolling. It would suck if a kit kept getting scored off the same birds.
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pigeon pete
298 posts
May 04, 2009
8:15 AM
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Katyroller,
I flew my old birds today and got two biggish breaks out of them. A 15 and anothther around 10 or so.
It was no problem to me to spot the two good birds among all the other loser:) rollers. You are right it is immpossible to focus on all 20 birds at once, but with practice it is not immpossible to judge 15 or 20 rollers all rolling together and tell how many are rolling right. You watch the kit, not the individuals.
If I look you in the face from 3ft away and you hold 2 or 3 fingers up but to one side, within a certain limit I will be able to know how many fingers you are holding up without shifting my gaze to count them. This is periferal vision, but a kit of rollers is now way near that periferal, in fact it is quite central to you vision unless it is very low. Another example is a shepherd who spends his life on the hills with his sheep, can quickly glance at the hill and imediately know that there are only 49 sheep instead of 50.
He doesn't need to count them because he has spent so much time doing the same thing that he instinctively knows what 50 sheep look like! You or I may recognise patterns of numbers, so if we see between 2 and lets say 5 we know there are 4 or 5 by the pattern even if it is scattered or random, we don't need to count. If we see 3 rows of 3 lined up symetricaly we imediately know it's a 9. Some people develop the ability to do this with quite large numbers. Their brains develop that way with long and repetitive use.
It's the same with rollers, if you can't tell how many in a big break are rolling and to what standard you just need to spend more time watching big breaks, you will get there,lol
The easiest kit to judge is the kit where all the birds are good. Show me a kit where 15+ birds roll with quality and I will enjoy judging them because it is easy. The hardest I find are the kits where all 20 buzz about, and you are not sure if 4 or 5 were actually rolling. When in doubt I leave them out.
I've said it many times, but the poor rollers and the too short rollers will illiminate themselves merely because they dont roll well enough and/or long enough to be seen, although I will concede that a good roller can be missed in the midst a kit of twizzlers.
The answer to that one is in the hands of the flyer.
Pete.
Last Edited by on May 04, 2009 8:17 AM
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katyroller
388 posts
May 04, 2009
2:18 PM
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pigeon pete, I am talking about being able to accurately judge the quality of the birds that are rolling at the same time. Example, you have a 12 bird break and 5 of the birds are showing the hole or better yet are a blur. Now the other 7 birds are rolling but showing no where near the quality of the other 5. I believe most fanciers and judges would key in on the 5 that are smoking. Would it be fair to score quality off the 5 great birds when more than half of the birds in the break were mediocre? Ever been to a fly where most of the fanciers in attendance had a different unofficial score than the judge and folks were wondering, "what kit was he watching?".
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wishiwon2
184 posts
May 04, 2009
10:41 PM
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Katyroller,
I agree that humans cannot process that much individual information simultaneously. For that reason you must discipline your self whilst judging to do exactly as Pete discribes, using your periferal vision, you 'take in' the sum of the break and make an evaluation of the general impression of the birds that rolled in that break. As your eye becomes better trained at it, you will notice the 2 or 3 of lesser quality and the 3 or 4 that are smokers but you still wont be making individual analysis of every bird in the break. Its about discipling your eyes and mind to see what you need to, to make a judgement, you cant allow your eyes to be drawn to focus on the extremes, good or bad.
When I am judging, ppl have occasionally asked me to pick the best bird in the team. I cant do that at the same time Im judging because I use 'different eyes' to judge with than if I were looking for those outstanding individuals. It's a different focus optically and mentally. As a judge you have to make an assessment of the general impression of a break or the average of the birds which are scored in a break. You are correct you cannot analyse each and every individual rolling with in each break.
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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wishiwon2
185 posts
May 04, 2009
10:52 PM
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This thread originally discussed teamwork. I have proposed in the past, that teamwork ought to be included in the standard that describes what a 'true Birmingham roller' is. X is right, you can have it all, superior quality, excellent depth and working together with a team, I have seen it happen. Its a brave new world. The standard in my opinion has shifted. Not that we allow or accept any less than we have in the past we are just expecting more from our birds.
I do think that teamwork ought to be and can be selected for in a breeding regimen. Rich Hayes has been focusing on those birds that "break when the team goes" and "rolls when they're supposed to". It is a trait thay can be identified and bred towards. Everybody loves a great spinner, how much nicer is a team full of them instead of just one or two. Im not saying I have them, just that its possible and something we strive for.
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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RodSD
232 posts
May 04, 2009
11:29 PM
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11 or 20 birds breaking at the same time? That would be awesome to see! But I think that goal might be really too high. I think that is more coordination, and cooperation. I just don't know if we can train birds like that or we just basically selects and put birds together that does that. Good luck on those who tries and more power to you all.
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katyroller
391 posts
May 05, 2009
7:34 AM
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wishiwon2- I understand what you are saying.
RodSD- I have never witnessed a full turn but I have seen kits that came very close. The birds in these kits were very closely related and were deliberately bred for their instinct to break together. Unfortunately, the breeders of these kits IMO did not pay enough attention to depth and quality.
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pigeon pete
299 posts
May 05, 2009
4:49 PM
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Rod,
Like Katy I have seen many breaks that were close to a full turn at other guys lofts so I know I'm not just seeing it at home,lol I joined my first roller club in 1984 and that year I went around some of the flys.
I saw a break of 18 birds at George Masons. 1 bird was out of the kit and another didn't roll.
The next year I flew my first fly and couldn't wait to get a full kit of proper rollers together, so I flew a kit with only 10 rollers in it and I got a break of 9 so that was nearly a full turn in my eyes,lol
Pete.
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TimP
175 posts
May 05, 2009
7:41 PM
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I agree with X, and so do most others in the NBRC. That's why the vote went in favor of eliminating the 1/2 or 1 second rule between birds rolling in a break.
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Scott
2129 posts
May 05, 2009
7:47 PM
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Team work comes on it's own with stable pigeons and as long as the team is selected properly,if a bird has a handle on the roll than depth is not an issue either.
The highest quality birds will always be the ones that fully commit in the breaks,not the ones that are controlled by the roll and roll individualy, gimme a hard solid quality breaking team and I will call it what it is, that being real Birmingham Rollers.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 05, 2009 9:49 PM
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gotspin7
2389 posts
May 06, 2009
6:53 AM
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Good read... I enjoyed it and I agree!
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Sal Ortiz
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Velo99
2115 posts
May 06, 2009
10:10 AM
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Once you see a good series of breaks from a kit,you`ll never be satisfied with anything less.Getting there is the hard part
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on May 06, 2009 10:27 AM
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Scott
2130 posts
May 06, 2009
11:43 AM
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You never key in on anything,the second that you focus in on anything other than the entire team is when you miss what is actualy going on.
(I believe most fanciers and judges would key in on the 5 that are smoking. Would it be fair to score quality off the 5 great birds when more than half of the birds in the break were mediocre? )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Roll Down
63 posts
May 06, 2009
9:41 PM
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If anyone has the answer to breeding for simaltaneous
performance ( all breaking together )please let me know.
I believe that by only flying a closely bred family they will have that tendency to all roll together but how would you possibly otherwise breed for this trait?
I used to belong to the P.R.C. back in the 60's and the big thing then was breeding the "dual Roller" -- showing and flying. ( Didn't work.)
Like I say, how would you breed for breaking together??
Thanks, Geo. D.
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gotspin7
2391 posts
May 07, 2009
4:21 AM
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Roll Down,
I stock what spins correctly and with great speed and also that it spins when the kit breaks.
Scott, I agree 100%
The highest quality birds will always be the ones that fully commit in the breaks,not the ones that are controlled by the roll and roll individualy, gimme a hard solid quality breaking team and I will call it what it is, that being real Birmingham Rollers.
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on May 07, 2009 5:40 AM
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Velo99
2116 posts
May 07, 2009
5:21 AM
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RD
Easy to say... breed hard,fly hard and cull hard. Garbage in garbage out. Be honest with yourself.
Use these three things and you WILL succeed.
If you`ve been in and out since the 60`s you know what to look for. The problem with new guys is they are impressed with activity. They have to see quality along with it before they can grasp the concept.
I still get excited over a 7 bird break. lol
yits
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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SiDLoVE
422 posts
May 07, 2009
9:12 PM
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I assume theres genetics traits for tight kitting , and also genetic, traits for kit sensitivity for concert performance and thats done threw visual in the air and selection with birds that break with the kit as opposed to birds who break behind the kit as a indivdual. I was told once select birds to stock who also break with a group not a loner!
Sidlove
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Roll Down
65 posts
May 09, 2009
12:46 PM
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Thanks to those who have answered my question of how to breed for breaking together.
I wouldn't own a bird who doesn't kit tight.
I am flying 17 holdovers from last year that you would have trouble counting in the air, they kit so tight.
Although I have never bred for it, the birds I have do roll when they turn into the wind but I have never paid much attention to half, three quarter or full turns.
It is something I will watch for and consider when I stock in future! ( Tightness of spin and of course tight kitting will still be my top priority though.)
Good subject, X D Roller!
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TimP
176 posts
May 15, 2009
6:56 PM
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Hey John, post # 753.
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Victor Hurtado
46 posts
May 15, 2009
8:22 PM
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man u can make a roller have every single trait long as u doing ur job right u can probaly even make it bark if u train it hard haha..
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