J T
173 posts
May 06, 2009
5:31 PM
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A Judge Certification Program would certainly be a step in the right direction.
Loft certification like the AU. would be a bonus.
Judge certification is complex, but not impossible.
To get the ball rolling would require the E.C. & a few senior or willing members to iron out the details.
N.B.R.C. could foot the bill for a few professional made videos showcasing a bad kit,
an OK. kit, and a TOP notch "A" kit. Footage of the winners kit in the World Cup,
NBRC National Championship Fly 20 & 11 bird. Videos from another country would be
a little complicated. The video of "one" members kit ( vote ) until the right footage was obtained.
An example of X style, H style, tumblers, proper depth, quality, speed, waterfall, 1/2 & full turns.
A standard written exam, and a oral exam.
The Internet could be used or a package could be mailed.
Have a committee of 4 - 5 Master Judges { nominated by the membership }
All questions, problems, complaints would be settled by them and the
President @ the time of incident.
Term limit for the panel of Judges? 2, 4, years or till death do we part?
All participants interested could / would be voted on by club members and pay $50.00
to take the test and help the N.B.R.C. recover their initial investment.
To become a Bantam Chicken Judge for example: 5 years membership, oral, written exam,
participation as an apprentice, X > amount of time at shows.
Several steps: Apprentice, Judge, Master Judge.
This is just a start. I'm sure there is a lot I have not mention, some other members could provide their
ideas, and we could start a format or template and vote & work out the details.
Master Judges could be award a plaque / award at the yearly convention to honor him and
his accomplishment.
Just a start.
Jerry Allen
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katyroller
395 posts
May 06, 2009
8:45 PM
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JT, I agree with you, this is something I have thrown out there many times and well... let's just say the response has been less than positive. I personally can not see how this would have anything but a positive impact on the hobby. Tracey
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turkey buzzard
95 posts
May 07, 2009
7:07 AM
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Have you guys lost your nuts an bolts? Judging is subjective not to say the least a volunteer job. Who in the hell would want to be a judge and not get reimbursed for there time and effort to become qualified. Most judges have to take time off of work, away from family, and their hobby to judge. I also raise rabbits the judges for rabbit shows get room and board, meals, plus $250.00 for judging. Can the regions afford this.
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Square
707 posts
May 07, 2009
7:56 AM
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I can see the benifits, However I can also see turkey buzzards side also. Her I my opion, it would be good to have some sort of certification program. The reason is that everyone will get the same training so to speak. This would put everyone on the same page, in additionn it would blow the whole "Loose Judging" outta the window so to speak. And yes its a volunteer job, But there woud be some sort of "Common Standard/Reconition" for being trained in the evaluation of kit's. I think it's a good idea...Good luck to all...
Booker.
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"Home of the Ghost Town Roller"
K.C.R.C
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3295 posts
May 07, 2009
8:09 AM
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turkey buzzard, so something is hard...don't do it? Why can't someone like Scott or other quality judges do judging full time and charge a fee? Perhaps the NBRC could pay a modest stipend toward a "professional" judging organization. Scott could fill his calendar year-round with contests all over the USA (world?) and not work as a greeter at Wal-Mart anymore.
Nick, as you are the regional director for the NBRC in our district, consider yourself contacted for this as an idea to present to the powers that be in the NBRC.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Scott
2131 posts
May 07, 2009
8:51 AM
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Tony,thanks, but very few like my judging,I score by a standard that represents the breed,most will say that is what they want but in reality it isn't.
Honestly such a program scares me, most just want activity points and no standard what so-ever is used to get such and such judges seem to be the most popular any more,and when a good judge does come through that is judging by a standard that represents the breed you start hearing how he is cheating every one, what if judging by no standard became the rule of the land under such a program ?
The fact is under many judges a kit of competion tumblers would be the way to go,that is a fact.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 07, 2009 8:54 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
593 posts
May 07, 2009
9:06 AM
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Hey Scott,
I agree. The most popular judges are the ones that no matter where thy go, the kits score close to a grand and winner is usualy some where between one and two grand..LOL you see the same loose judge called back to some of these regions time and time again. They think the inflated scores make their area or birds look better! LOL
I too fear who would be running the criteria we judge by! LOOSE judges sink quality and breed standards. Loose judging is why Pensom warned competition would ruine the Birmingham roller. We have to keep the standards high and not just score action! Just my ipinion. KGB
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katyroller
396 posts
May 07, 2009
9:24 AM
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turkey buzzard, Don't worry all my nuts and bolts are still together,LOL. It isn't hard to look at the hobby and see that there are some problems with the way competitions are scored. When you look at the score sheets for different regions and different judges, you should not be seeing some of the vast point spreads that we see today. "Who in the hell would want to be a judge and not get reimbursed for there time and effort to become qualified. Most judges have to take time off of work, away from family, and their hobby to judge." Have faith Sir, there are dedicated judges today that are spending their own hard earned money to judge flys for free.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3421 posts
May 07, 2009
10:17 AM
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I think instead of certifying a judge all flyers need to be certified. They need to understand what a scoring roll is; what a kit has to do to score. Then pass a little test of the flying rules either it be for the NBRC or WC.
People have the misconception that if the winning kit only scores 70, 80, or 100 points the judge is a good one.....BS
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2924 posts
May 07, 2009
10:41 AM
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I guess Scott be keeping his job at wal-mart..lol..
Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3299 posts
May 07, 2009
10:48 AM
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Jay, your question has nothing to do with the merit of my idea. Why wouldn't a properly trained and reputable judge who could make a decent financial career judging comps be a good idea?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3300 posts
May 07, 2009
10:52 AM
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Nick, interesting take:
"People have the misconception that if the winning kit only scores 70, 80, or 100 points the judge is a good one.....BS"
I am not agreeing or disagreeing, but do you think Scott and Eldon, if judging the same kit would have a similar final score? If not, why not?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2925 posts
May 07, 2009
11:02 AM
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Imagine getting paid for something you love to do.especially when you was doing it for free.....great idea..
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Ralph.
The greatest use of your life is so you live your life so that the use of your life will outlive your life, In other words what you going to leave behind legacy or Dust....
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toronto15
178 posts
May 07, 2009
1:42 PM
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JT, I think this is a great idea. There are probably quite a few men that suffer from Pigeon Fanciers Lung, that are still healthy enough to travel and judge. Ths would enable some, if they choose, to remain active in their beloved sport/hobby.Glen.
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Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1912 posts
May 07, 2009
2:01 PM
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Whether one comes down on the side of tight judging to keep the bar so high that many kits would earn a zero, or loose judging that scores everything that moves...the advantage of training and certifying judges is that it would eliminate these extremes and bring more judges into the middle of the road, and on the same page with regard to quality criteria, estimation of numbers, perception of depth at different heights, knowldege and interpretation of rules, etc. I just don't see how anyone can argue with that. EVERY other discipline that I am aware of that involves subjective judging, requires trainng and certification of its judges. It's only logical for the roller hobby as well. I just don't see it happening until one of the NBRC's Presidents makes it a real priority during his administration. I would favor a system where the NBRC provides trained and certified judges for all the regional and finals competitions. Some type of monetary compensation would go a long way toward attracting a much larger pool of participants for the entire sport than currently exists.
Cliff
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wishiwon2
186 posts
May 07, 2009
3:27 PM
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"Jay, your question has nothing to do with the merit of my idea. Why wouldn't a properly trained and reputable judge who could make a decent financial career judging comps be a good idea?"
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Because this is a hobby, not a profession. As soon as it become s a professional endeavor ... Im out and I suppose many other would be too. I already have a career, this is my escape from that. I want to do the best I can ... I dont believe money will be in the best interet of roller flying.
Keep in perspective what this competition fundamentally is ... A judge comes to your loft and gives you an 'opinion' of your birds performance. As a body of hobbyists, we have created a series of guidelines to assist the judge in selecting the best kits from each region. "Best" being a broad and subjective term. Kit competition is nothing more and nothing less, an informed opinion ... All of the judges I have been associated with have done thier best to be fair and to apply the guidelines as best they understand them.
I dont undertand what is wrong with how we do things now. I realize there are inconsistencys. We are not all cut from the same mold nor are our birds, each is a little different. If as a whole we expect greater consistency, make the rules more specifically defined ... soon enough you'll have a legal document that will continue to grow in legth with clauses for this and clauses for that. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid.
I believe most of the complaining comes from those who feel they have been slighted for what ever reason ... I say quit your damn crying. You will always be the best in your own yard and in your own mind, if you cant accept the fact that you may not actually be the best in a competition field, dont play then. Also realize this is an endeavor that requires years, maybe decades, of effort and discipline to become sucessful.
I dont oppose judges being educated or qualified, but requiring a certification or paying judges to judge is asking too much of a hobby. It turns what is a fellowship, brotherhood into a cutthroat every flier for himself operation. If you think things are political now, make judging itself competative with monetary incentives, a market system, and see how much enjoyment this hobby brings to your life ...
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
Last Edited by on May 07, 2009 3:29 PM
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3422 posts
May 07, 2009
3:52 PM
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Tony - I would not even speculate if the scores would be similar between the two. It may be that niether one would give you a good picture what is actually occurring in the sky. Then again, one may be closer to what is actually occurring in the air than the other.
For me, if the winning kit scores, say 70 points, one of a couple of things is happening: (1)The kits flown were not of high value or (2) The judge may not be of high value.
What I am saying; low scores does not necessarily mean a good judge. A lot of people have already made up thier minds that high scores means a poor judge.
Niebel scored well over a thousand when being judged by a person everybody gives high creedence to. Are we wanting to say only Monty can score a thousand; the judge was not a good judge; the judge got caught up in the moment? What is it we want to say?
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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BA Rollers
235 posts
May 07, 2009
3:55 PM
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Very Well said Jon.
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Scott
2132 posts
May 07, 2009
4:46 PM
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I suggest that you talk to that judge about it and why his last judging trip was so different from the first , then get back to us.
Also, good teams will most certainly score more than a hundred points,not sure where that came from.
(Niebel scored well over a thousand when being judged by a person everybody gives high creedence to. Are we wanting to say only Monty can score a thousand; the judge was not a good judge; the judge got caught up in the moment? What is it we want to say? )
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 07, 2009 5:23 PM
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Scott
2134 posts
May 07, 2009
5:01 PM
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Jon, I'm with you, it is what it is, I will keep flying no matter what.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3301 posts
May 07, 2009
5:21 PM
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LOL Silly me, I guess I had a different impression. I guess I can see why all these guys spend hours and hours, days and weeks prepping for comps in order for a "judge" to render an "opinion" on their birds. I mean I get it. I do.
BTW, having a paid judge does not make "you" a professional, it make the judge a professional. Do I think this is ever likely? Probably not. But the idea of consistency in a professional judge - is an idea I like. This is my opinion.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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macsrollers
63 posts
May 07, 2009
8:02 PM
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Judging a competition is most always a thankless job with the judge being critisized or judged themselves. I have had very strict judges like the Ouellettes and a few that I thought were extremely loose and scored everything that moved. I certainly didn't like the so called loose judges, not personally but how they judged, and I will never change my standard of quality spin over frequency and flutter. I learned more about a true spinner from Don and Doug Ouellette. When Eldon Cheney came here to judge our final qualifier we all had the perception of a loose judge that scored everything that moved. However that wasn't the case. I felt he did a good job and we learned alot from him and also had a great time! As long as the judge is consistent from house to house that is all we can ask. What would qualify a judge to be considered a professional. Taking a classe or watching some videos plus judging a few flys? It is getting harder and harder to get judges and if it gets to the point where a standard asking price is attached then the small regions will suffer. I think we need to concentrate on treating the judges that are volunteering with respect, hospitality, and true fellowship. Then more of these volunteers will be willing to come back around to judge. The reason for the huge scores is the current scoring system. Double and triple points by an active kit is hard to beat as the quality and depth multipliers can't overcome the huge raw scores by these types of kits. The scoring system and current use of it is what needs to be changed. Get rid of the double and triple points and just give the raw by how many birds rolled. Then the good judges can award the quality and depth multipliers and we will see that the better true spinning kits will come out on top. But I am a hard core flyer and will fly any time I can in these competitions regardless to the rules. I just won't breed for the type of birds that seem to be winning under the current scoring system. Thanks, Don M. Las Vegas Roller Club
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SiDLoVE
418 posts
May 07, 2009
9:01 PM
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I like this judge certification idea , That way all the judges are on the same page. Not loose nor to strick but right in the fairness mark on quality kits and explains to the club or group how he judges and what he is looking for...And fluttering isnt a 20 bird break! We need someone who knows there stuff and there task at HAND!Then again there barely enough judges just to barely get by and its a thankless job. I dont see anything wrong with paying a profesional who has been trained for the task.So far our club has been fortunate to find these judges who judge for quality and Scott knows hes invited to judge us anytime.
Sidlove
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J T
174 posts
May 08, 2009
6:29 PM
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Change always scares some.
Some are scared that the truth will be told.
If you had to have open heart surgery, would you want a professional?
Scores always change when a veteran judge comes by.
Some judge’s score loose some score too tight.
If they were trained to a set program the field would change for the better.
All judges are appreciated. Clubs struggle at times to find some one to do it.
The choice is up to you.
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wishiwon2
189 posts
May 08, 2009
10:52 PM
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LOL ... heart surgery and roller kit competition, I would have never drawn that comparison. But now that you point it out, they're pretty near equal importance ...
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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Spin City USA
214 posts
May 08, 2009
11:02 PM
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JT, I aggree with you,it is really funny that everybody wants to complain about crappy judgeing and bogus scores but when offered a solution everybody has a reason why it wont work. Some people even say they will quit flying??? I believe a certification has value and if $50.00 to help cover the cost of materials is too much then maybe this is'nt for you and you dont have to participate. I think a person who took the time and energy to gain a certification would not want to lose it by playing favorites. I have participated in activities where I have been judged all over the country and with a certified or pro judge the playing field is more consistant and if you have a complaint there is a process and procedure to go thru. Anyway it would be nice to see something like you proposed to get started in the NBRC or WC.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Last Edited by on May 08, 2009 11:04 PM
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PAUL R.
47 posts
May 08, 2009
11:35 PM
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I agree we should have some sort of certification. At least this way, the judges should have some " GUIDELINES" to follow. Theres so much grey area from one judge to another judge because it comes down to his "own" opinion and not based on guidelines that will give the judge a better understanding as an example what 20ft looks like at 400ft opposed to 200ft.
paul ramirez
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