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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Subject: NBRC Training/Certification Program
Subject: NBRC Training/Certification Program
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3302 posts
May 09, 2009
8:22 AM
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Date: May 9, 2009
TO: Nick Siders, NBRC Regional Director, Region 5
CC: Roller-Pigeon.Com Discussion Forum
From: Tony Chavarria, Owner & Publisher Roller-Pigeon.Com, NBRC Club Member
Subject: NBRC Training/Certification Program
Hello Nick, your promptness to this call for action sure was swift! Thanks for being on top of the request.
I hope that the NBRC President and Executive Committee agrees that it is important to be perceived as encouraging integrity in the officiating of its National Championship Fly as well as local club competitions by providing a certification program that ensures a minimal level of competence in the judges of these competitions.
As the NBRC sponsors an important annual national competition with a member crowned champion, I believe it can only add value to the accomplishment when all participating and interested club members view the officiating as being of the highest caliber the club can muster.
While few would disagree with the idea of integrity being injected into the process, I believe the strongest legitimate objection to this certification idea is that it is difficult enough to find a judge, notwithstanding a competent one. I would agree with this sentiment except that I believe there is an appropriate solution to this dilemma, and that is Fee for Play, that is, a certified judge who is paid for his/her services much like an adult league softball or basketball referee/umpire.
What is interesting is there never seems to be a shortage of competitors, only judges willing to volunteer their time. Where there was very little motivation to volunteer, a judge who is paid for his services is more likely to take his/her off-time and offer it to clubs desiring the fair and competent result of a certified judge.
Certified judges can be held accountable by the NBRC which will have oversight and powers to award and revoke certifications and to establish reasonable fees for the number of kits and time required to complete the contest.
In today’s economy, good or bad, there are surely motivated individuals who would see the value to themselves, the NBRC and the roller pigeon hobby at large to offer their services in such a manner.
If the NBRC provided a clear and appropriate training program, I would be among the first to sign up for such a course and make myself available to at least the local club/s. I would also be willing to participate in a task force the NBRC would establish to come up with appropriate rules and guidelines for just such an endeavor.
In summary, I think there are 7 primary benefits that come to mind with such a certification program:
1: Certification injects highest level of integrity to the judging process
2: NBRC actively promoting understanding and competence of performance rollers
3: Creates a larger pool of qualified judges by providing a positive incentive to judge
4: Enhances prestige to both local club fly winners and National Champion winners
5: Helps resolve the longstanding perception of too few competent judges
6: Consistency of applied interpretation of the rules among different judges = happier flyers
7: Additional revenue stream via certification fees paid to the NBRC
This brief letter does not cover every possible angle on this certification idea, but it does suggest that there are answers and without doubt, clear benefits to a certification sponsored by the NBRC. Nick, “Thank You” for your time and effort to notify the NBRC President on this request.
FLY ON!
Tony Chavarria
Owner & Publisher Roller-Pigeon.Com
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katyroller
397 posts
May 09, 2009
1:26 PM
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Tony, Thanks for being proactive on this subject! I have felt for years that this type of program would benefit the hobby as a whole. Unfortunately, I have not done a good job of stating my beliefs as clearly as yourself. I look forward to an answer from the NBRC, either for or against this idea.
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Velo99
2118 posts
May 10, 2009
8:34 AM
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I have heard talk of trying to have a judging seminar at the convention again. That could easily be a certifiable course if a decent curriculum was adopted. With in a 3-4 years there could be 200 or more certified judges.
Another thought... 10 certified judging instructors at various points around the country. It would be more expedient and exponential than the convention but not as numerically valuable. One weekend for ten guys at one location in the US The bigger clubs could foot the bill for the initial credentials and charge a per seminar fee to recoup expenses. I could see a weekend gatherings with a kit flying and someone actually counting off the seconds or using a metronome as the kit performs. Distance finders to help get height into perspective.Rules discussions to get everyone on the same page.
With all the tools we have at our disposal we could have a large group of really good judges in a very few years.
jmho
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
Last Edited by on May 10, 2009 8:36 AM
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turkey buzzard
96 posts
May 11, 2009
10:49 AM
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So basically if we raise the entry fee to cover the cost of paying a judge from $35 to $50 per kit The judges would want a flat fee. $250.00 then so much for every kit after "X" amount of kits judged. The club or region would still have to pay transportation, meals, and lodging. Just how many fliers can afford that cost? How many clubs can afford this kind of hit? I am not in disagreement just so much involved at this late date of the ball game why change? Who is judging now that is not competent to judge and why?
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katyroller
398 posts
May 11, 2009
12:31 PM
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turkey buzzard, The club I'm in, provides lodging and meals for the judge. Someone in the club will volunteer to put the judge up at their residence for a night or two and will generally take care of feeding the judge. Ground transportation is again taken care of by a club member and after the fly a member will drive the judge and hand him off to the next club to fly.
"Who is judging now that is not competent to judge and why?" I don't want to say anyone is incompetent as a judge but I will say that there are judges out there that could be doing a better job if they received proper training. I would love to be able to judge one day but I don't feel that I could do a competent job with the training/lack of training that I have received.
"I am not in disagreement just so much involved at this late date of the ball game why change?" As times change and we become more educated it is necessary for our hobby to also change. If a problem/potential problem has been observed, why turn a blind eye to it and continue on business as usual? As fanciers it is the responsibility of everyone of us to improve the hobby
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3306 posts
May 11, 2009
12:39 PM
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turkey buzzard, thanks for your comments. I can see by your numbers that you think this could be expensive. However, my estimate is that an NBRC Certified or trained judge could be had for maybe $50 to $75 a fly for a local competition and perhaps $5 to $10 per kit for the National Fly. The rates are modest and based upon their judging abilities, the best certified judges will tend to be in demand.
In addition, a region or a club would not be required to use certified judges if it does not want to. But if they did, they would have the benefit of knowing that their scores were determined by a NBRC Certified judge, not merely a guy who volunteered to do the job because no one else was able, felt capable or willing to do it.
As for your last question, I guess someone who feels like they want to name names will have to respond to that, but I doubt anyone would be willing to publicly be critical of judges who are now volunteers.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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turkey buzzard
97 posts
May 11, 2009
1:12 PM
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Tony, When my children showed rabbits 10 years ago the fee for the rabbit judge was $250.00 plus room and meal expenses. In the eastern states they recieved more. The fee was 3.00 for every rabbit showed and the judge had to judge three to four different breeds of rabbits for one day. Your asking a man to be away from home one week and ask him to take a training coarse and pay $50.00 to $75.00, don't see it. Why now, the sudden push across the board on NBRC, Earls List, and now yours to get certified judges? Is judging that bad? Whats the main gripe about judges? I have been on your list for a while and have not heard any negative comments about judges. Can someone please give me an example(s)?
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kcfirl
575 posts
May 11, 2009
2:36 PM
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Dear Tony and list,
I understand why some there is a need to "certify" judges. The idea is that the judges should have some minimum set of skills needed to judge correctly and add some consistency. I agree that is a worthy goal.
Here's the problem: we can't agree on what a minimum scorable roll is. If we can;t agree on what should be scored in terms of quality, speed, depth, style, etc., it is an excercise in futility to try to train judges to recognize what is scoreable.
The best way to insure you are being judged by a quality judge, is to understand how that judge has scored kits in the past and by seeing him judge, and by listening to men you respect say about his judging. That is how I pick judges and I can honestly say, out of perhaps, 50 times that I have secured judges, I have only been dissapointed twice. And in both of those cases, I did not follow my own rules of selecting but picked nice guys who I thought would be fair. One didn't know what multipliers were, one didn;t care to look up and watch the birds the whole time if he felt they weren;t active.
Best Regards,
Ken Firl
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wishiwon2
193 posts
May 11, 2009
5:02 PM
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"In addition, a region or a club would not be required to use certified judges if it does not want to. But if they did, they would have the benefit of knowing that their scores were determined by a NBRC Certified judge, not merely a guy who volunteered to do the job because no one else was able, felt capable or willing to do it."
Tony, how is that any different than what already happens now? Except that regions dont have the outlay of cash. They already strive to select those judges they believe are competent and capable. The best judges already are in demand.
I do believe that education needs to happen for flyers and potential judges alike. It doesnt need to be a regimented affair through certification though. It can happen at local levels. Club organizations can dedicate one kit during a local competition to be a discussion kit. If the comp is judged by a single judge, during the flight of that kit the judge identifies birds and breaks he scores and explains whya and what he is looking for. Members and attendees can input comments and ask questions. If the comp is panel judged, the panel can discuss why certain breaks are scored and what multipliers are appropriate. Each local comp can dedicate 1 kit as a 'training kit' for judgement. I just am not convinced that hiring a judge and making a market system of a hobby is in the best interest long term.
Firl makes an outstanding point. It isnt as much the judge as it is the understanding of the rule, what is or isnt scoreable. There is no definition of that in the rules and therefore it becomes a subject evaluation. That doesnt make it wrong just what it is.
I agree with turkey buzzard, I dont see where the problem is in what we are already doing. I havent always agreed with the judgements Ive witnessed, I dont expect to. I have seen men who are doing their best to pick the superior team from each region using the definitions set forth called rules. If it aint broke, dont fix it. It just could use a little polishing. I think that works best at a local level and over repeated sessions.
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Jon
"had fun, wish i won 2"
If it were easy, everybody would do it ...
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Spin City USA
217 posts
May 13, 2009
11:51 AM
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Tony, thank you for taking the time to articulate the thoughts of many of your site members. Any time you have judges they should all be on the same page. I know personal peference will always be in the back of a judges mind but if they have a set guideline to go by it should level the playing field from region to region.
As far as money we have been going on the cheap far too long. When you are talking about a state,national or world title we are looking for the best of the best. If you think you have the best kit the cost to participate should not even be a factor. Wheather it is $50 or $100 the flyers with the goods will not even hesitate. When JV Brock ran the California Classic it was $75/squeaker. You had to know your birds and it wasnt a guessing game to put $150 on two squeakers.
Keith London has a "Put up or shut up" Fly and I told him I thought that was too cheap.jmo Anyway thank you for trying to get something going. I think I will send an Email to our RD.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
Last Edited by on May 13, 2009 11:53 AM
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J_Star
1978 posts
May 13, 2009
12:28 PM
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With all due respect, when the judges stop pinching birds from the flyers they judge, the bull shit will stop and you will get raeasonable and honest scores.
Jay
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Electric-man
2331 posts
May 13, 2009
2:38 PM
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Thats food for thought!
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Val
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Victor Hurtado
11 posts
May 13, 2009
5:54 PM
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true j star.
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black_hawk_down
205 posts
May 18, 2009
4:50 AM
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“The best way to insure you are being judged by a quality judge, is to understand how that judge has scored kits in the past and by seeing him judge, and by listening to men you respect say about his judging.”(Ken Firl)
I truly agree with this quote from Ken Firl because there is a problem, every man has his own view points of things, therefore a certification program would be hard to establish especially in scoring kit competitions. But on the other hand that’s how man is; you either have a mean boss or a nice one. Great idea tony, a certification program in the NBRC sounds awesome.
“…the best certified judges will tend to be in demand.” (Tony Chavarria 3306th post)
-joe vang
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skykutta
1 post
May 18, 2009
6:48 AM
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Something amazing happened In the sport last year when Joe Houghton Judged the New York Region with one eye,nothing against old joe Houghton but he never should have excepted that situation,,Lets be honest here,, Its hard enough to judge 20 rollers with two eyes,Never mind with just one,, so for me the roller sport became like wrestling on TV,,A circus,,Before I get started with this post I come to this forum with proffesional and technical experience In the sport,I have Judged more than 70% of competitions in this country and Canada,From World cup Regionals to NBRC Competitions to Invitationals,, Local and regional competitions,,I founded the New England Roller Assoc, The Mass assoc of performing Rollers, The North East Invitational clssic, and the proven Performer/Proven producer programs In New england and the proven Performer Class at all the shows In New England,,Basicly i brought competition to New England,,
Lets get started,, There Is no way you can train anyone to judge a kit of rollers,,Judging a kit of rollers can only be done by someone who has actually raised/Trained and flown a champion kit of rollers In national, regional and local competitions,, Let me say this, I have refused to allow severall judges to judge my competition teams because I did not beleive the judge was competant enough to judge,with that said we have to look into the sport beyond judging,,My reason for quitting organized roller competitions and clubs was simple,The sport had become a joke,, Unproffesional, and basicly to damm costly, When Juan Navarro became the president of the NBRC he called and asked me what I would do to change the NBRC, I said i would start by paying cash prizes for winners of competitions,The top 20 finalists should be payed a cash prize,,It had come down to paying 75 dollars to compete with two kits and for all that work preparing you ended up with a 20 cent pin,or a 3 dollar plaque, and sometimes judges that couldnt judge,The NBRC and World cup had become way to big to handle, the costs to operate were getting out of hand and the time it took to complete these competitions were taking the entire year,,the complaints were allways the same, regions were screaming that their weather was not fit to fly rollers,,and In most cases that was true,A certifacation program for the NBRC In My oppinion will never happen,,The roller hobby is what it is,, a hobby,,
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3314 posts
May 18, 2009
8:32 AM
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skykutta, thank you for thoughts on this topic. I agree with your sentiments on this...Your post identifies 2 sides to flying and breeding rollers, is it a hobby, something to be enjoyed for ones self-satisfaction to pass the time OR, is it a sport?
If it is a hobby, then comps mean nothing to ones enjoyment of the birds, however, if it is a sport, then it should be treated like one, competent judges, clear rules, over site committee, financial rewards, etc...I believe the racing homer sport is as strong as it is because of the reward for winning.
For all the braggadocio I would think the hard-core comp flyers, would pull out all the stops to ensure that only the best-qualified kits competed for the top honors ($$$/titles) and only the best judges utilized.
One idea I floated before is that the local clubs should design their local flys to determine who will represent their club in the prelims/finals of the World Cup or National Championship. Then for these finals, only the best (certified/experienced) judges are eligible to judge. Then I think the integrity/prestige/validity of the event soars.
Your point that only experienced roller guys should be qualified to judge is well taken. We have to define “experienced” and agree that these are the proper qualifications of a competent candidate/judge.
BTW, the reference to 20 cent pins always cracks me up! Thanks for checking in!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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XtraDeepRoller
4 posts
May 18, 2009
11:07 AM
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Hey skykutta (AKA Joe Testa) is in the house!
Welcome aboard JT!!!
X
Last Edited by on May 18, 2009 8:27 PM
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skykutta
2 posts
May 19, 2009
6:43 AM
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Tony
So we as Individuals,,, have to look at what we do with pigeons as either a sport or as a Hobby,!!! this debate has raged on for a very long time as well as the show roller aspect of the hobby,,
The roller pigeon was well on its way to destruction as far back as the 50s,I remember fanciers crossing in other breeds for size and stance for the show cage. and again for crossing in tipplers for a harder feather and a longer time In the air,,
Lets keep in mind thousands of these same crossed birds found their way Into lofts all across America and Canada,,You found kits flying in the stratisphere for hours,,performance was seldom,,
We forget that rollers are basicly the end result of fanciers working with the tumbler,rollers from that experiment are the deep soft feathered sizzling fast dangerous birds that seem to be rare these dayz,,
In my desire to bring competition to New England, I didnt realize the Insanity that would come with it,Competition brought out some weird characters In this hobby/Sport,I mean there were some scary people out there,, heheheheh,
Anyone who had a black or blue check roller layed claim that the roller was the direct daughter or son from the Infamous pensoms 514 hen,No one realized the 514 had been dead for 35 years,we dealt with the self described genetic scientist who left school In the 7th grade but could throw the genetic lingo around like a proffesor, that allways got me laughing,,, the pedigree freaks,The self proclaimed breeder of only the best, yet they had absolutly no credibility,,
But beyond all that crazyness I still loved the sport/Hobby,I hung around with guyz that were as crazy as bedbugs with the rollers,, they were characters and I would never disagree with them in their beleifs because they were a source of entertainment for me and yes good pals,,
What really started to bother me about the sport was that the competitions were basicly worthless In regards to the best kit of rollers,, and we all should know that,Having been a judge and a furious competitor I knew that most times the best kits were usually blown away, hit by hawks, helicopters,spirits and mother bad luck,
In most every single competition that I have judged and that has to be over 2 hundred,, The kit with the bad luck should have won,,Being an honorable man I would never mention that at the competition so as not to Insult anyone,Untill one day when I had too,
I did that to Insult the winner who really didnt deserve the win and because he was cutting down the guy who really should have won,It was then that I had made up my mind to walk away from the sport,, I walked away because not only for the above reasons but because I seen the fanciers who were working like dogs In their regions to maintain the sport and the integrity of the sport being disrespected by fanciers who shouldnt have rollers on their property,, They should In fact raise chickens,,
The real workaholics for the sport were also being demonized by fanciers who didnt belong in the sport,,,, Let me name a few,, Jim Spring, Mass, Dave Szabatura,N Y. after watching how those two guyz were beaten down and their character being questioned I no longer wanted any part of the sport or hobby and realized that they were experiencing the same thing i went through,
now dont take these words as being bitter or hatefull of the sport or hobby, I still love both and still raise and fly rollers just as I have allways done,,I still have a huge amount of roller buddys and we still hang out and fly together,My take on the whole thing, Competition should be strictly for the pros,, and we all know who they are,regions should back the best they have for their region,why would any region allow a shit kit that won by pure luck represent their region,
It seems we can never get that comraderie In this sport,as much as competions seem to be legit I still see it as needing a big change,,
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bman
662 posts
May 19, 2009
8:08 AM
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skycutta said "Competition should be strictly for the pros,, and we all know who they are,regions should back the best they have for their region,why would any region allow a shit kit that won by pure luck represent their region,"
With all due respect doesn't that eliminate 90% of the fliers out there.I wouldn't think you would have much support for any competition under those guidelines.JMHO
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3315 posts
May 19, 2009
9:02 AM
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Ron, I have to disagree, I myself would tag along more on comp flys if the birds I was going to watch were the real deal. There are about 2 or 3 kits out of 10 that are worth watching on any given day (IMO). Just like with any pro sport, professional roller comps will develop a following and that will be enough. I think the compromise to distinguishing the hobby/sport, is when the national/international comps try to be all-inclusive by flying anyone with at least 15 birds and willing to pay the fly fees.
If yours, my birds or anyone's birds are not consistently doing 15 to 20 scoreable breaks in 20 minutes, we may need to improve our training and management techniques or improve our breeder selections, etc. (then you have to worry about too many tumblers??)
If the hobby is not not ready for the changes, I can understand that. Change IS HARD!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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bman
663 posts
May 19, 2009
9:27 AM
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TWO OR THREE OUT TEN. Sounds like 70-80% reduction in entry fees.lol
And if the "PROS" don't win sounds like they need to improve their management & training techniques.
Till there is a monetary reward than it is a hobby.
By that definition (getting paid)than you are the only pro I know.lol
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Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 9:29 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3316 posts
May 19, 2009
9:54 AM
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Ron, now don't go messen' round the status quo! LOL As for me, I consider myself to be a "professional" roller pigeon breeder not a professional competitor. My Ruby Roller clients can reach me just about any day and most hours to discuss the birds and how to get more from them through training and management as well as discuss concepts to gain additional insight into them.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 9:55 AM
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bman
664 posts
May 19, 2009
10:24 AM
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Just messin with you Tony! But in all reality by most any definition it is a hobby (my opinion) I know of no one that could be termed a "professional". Actually I beleive you put forth the idea of a series of comps on the regional level to determine the best qualifier.Sounds like if you can best the competition over a series of flys that would elimnate the "crying over spilt milk" excuses and level the playing field.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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skykutta
3 posts
May 19, 2009
4:24 PM
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heheheheh,
A short story,Lets call it,
Moida In da foist,
Im judging the World Cup regionals Up In Canada,, I forget the year but I think it was their first year flying that competiton,Ron Kumro was the Host out of Buffalo NY and a life long friend of mine came along for the ride,, The Late Mike Sweeney,God rest his soul,,The Ontario Boyz were good guyz,they had their little groups of flyers from different area,s, and there always seemed to be one fancier from those groups who was the hmmm, Let me say the( Boss, ) Guru If you will,
Especially In one area there was a guy who was a Mounty ( Cop )and he was the boss of all bosses and he had his little crew of followers just like all the other bosses In their areas or let me say, worshipers,They were crowding around him and his loft on this fatefull day of roller reckening,,or should I say, Awakening,
I gazed at the birds and noticed they were unusually large birds kinda reminding me of the old school rollers built like mini homers,Whitinghams and the old Plona birds,, Very pleasing to the eye but If any of you guyz remember, those old style rollers were very seldom and could fly higher and longer than your average tippler,,
I actually had to fight off the desire to bow down to this guy because everyone else was, heheheheheh,and let me say this, everyone hung on every word he spoke because his word was the Law, why of course it was he was wearing the mounty uniform,,I looked at Mike Sweeney and smiled,,It was a nervous smile,,,Ol ron Kumro wasnt smiling, In Fact he gulped when I asked him if he had ever seen this guyz kits fly,,,,it allmost felt like that first day In Basic training where your so nervous you cant stop laughing,
After this extra long speil by this fancier In regards to his family of giants, er rollers,and at the same time screwing up the dayz schedual by more than an hour and the fact he didnt even have a cooky for the guyz made me dislike this Capo de capo a little more,,But it would have no affect on the scoring because I wouldnt allow that,
anyway it was show time and up went the kit,, Granted I really liked the way they kitted nice and close they stayed down at a nice level to judge and they were very busy, (TUMBLING) The crowd was oooooing and aaahhhing and praising the kit,,I wanted to scream,, Ahhh scuse me but are these babys,???,mike looked at me and whispered,, how about giving him a gratious point, Or Two,,
I wondered If the guy had pulled my crimminal record up because he was staring at me with this look of disgust and especially at mike who had the score pad and pen In his hand,,I really didnt want to keep looking at this imature kit of tumblers but i also wanted to ask someone to shoot the kit and the handler,,I was starving,,
The competition over everybody patting the guy on the back, BeeeUUtifull BeeeUUtifull the kit was amazing,,I looked at mike, Looked at the ron Kumro and kinda whispered, Ya think ya should get the car started Ron,,You know, so we can get atta here,,
I hand the Guy his score,, Theres nothiong on it but what I wrote,nice flying kit,, may come on in the future, If not,,Kill them and the parents,,,, The guy laughed, he thought I was kidding ho ho ho ho ,I wasnt kidding,,as we headed for the car the guy was still laughing,,mike sweeney said run he,s going for his gun, I kinda beleived him and allmost started running,,all i remember as we pulled away was him standing there with his mouth open and Mike and me waving,,
The guy who won that competition was a loner, he didnt belong to any group, he just liked to fly his rollers,and thought it would be nice to try a competition, He never flew again,,
End of that story,,
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Scott
2162 posts
May 19, 2009
4:49 PM
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Joe, How you been ? Dude, I thought you were dead
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on May 19, 2009 4:50 PM
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3757
1244 posts
May 19, 2009
5:12 PM
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"The guy who won that competition was a loner, he didnt belong to any group, he just liked to fly his rollers,and thought it would be nice to try a competition, He never flew again,,
End of that story,,"
Skykutta - That was an amazing story!
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skykutta
4 posts
May 19, 2009
5:48 PM
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heheheh jesus, I got a few private emails about my views on competition,the sport, the hobby,, and yes for those of you who disagree,or wanted to know if I ever won anything worth while,Yes,, I did win the NBRC fall fly, 1999,,
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3757
1245 posts
May 19, 2009
6:36 PM
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Skykutta - I do not disagree at all as I like honesty. Some want to bash those who have different opinions but I am not one of those. That is what makes this hobby so great. I would like you to e-mail me if you would at ldoucet@spfldcol.edu as I would like to discuss something with you.
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Spin City USA
225 posts
May 19, 2009
6:44 PM
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Joe has some good points. Maybe there needs to be a Professional Roller Assn. No one is be forced join but if BIG money was paid to the winners and it had an entry fee that was high enough to warrent paying 3 or 4 places it would be put up or shut up. Let the club guys do their thing and give those who want to turn PRO a place to compete with pro judges. One thing I will disagree with Joe is that I dont believe that you have had to raise or fly rollers to evaluate them. You will have to develope an eye for it and some people have a better eye for it than others. I am amazed at the accuracy of major league baseball umpires to call strikes on a 97mph fast ball(instant replay has proven this)and many of the best umpires never played the game.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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XtraDeepRoller
5 posts
May 20, 2009
6:10 AM
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Hey Joe,
Remember the look on Scott's face when you caught that sea gull with your bare hands? Man, he thought we were all nuts! Although he did consider taking it home to use in his breeding program. LMAO.
X
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Scott
2166 posts
May 20, 2009
3:46 PM
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That look was pure fear that I was going to jail with a busted leg and 2000 mi from home LOL
(Remember the look on Scott's face when you caught that sea gull with your bare hands? Man, he thought we were all nuts! Although he did consider taking it home to use in his breeding program. LMAO.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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