bigwilly
943 posts
May 24, 2009
3:44 PM
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It is my understanding that one crosses a family of birds to bring out something that there family is lacking. I hear alot of people talking about crossing this family or crossing that family. When I ask why are you crossing more times than not i get a reply " to make my own family". Why would you want to mess up something that someone has spent years making? I feel that if one really put there homework in when buying pigeons you would not have to worry about crossing.
Dont get me wrong. I dont have a problem with people that cross different familys. I just believe that you have to have a reason.
BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 3:45 PM
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0221
274 posts
May 24, 2009
3:51 PM
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I agree, It takes a pretty good handler to maintain a good family. after you have bred off those pigeons, that family is yours. Mess them up and see if the person you got them from will claim them. LOL LOL
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Scott
2178 posts
May 24, 2009
4:11 PM
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Most of those that feel a need to cross usualy are down breeding a good line into their garbage, not always though .
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3447 posts
May 24, 2009
4:50 PM
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I did as Scott said. Trying to make garbage do better I crossed bread my family with another family and I still got a lot of garbage. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken poop.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on May 24, 2009 4:52 PM
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donnie james
466 posts
May 24, 2009
4:53 PM
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hay billwilly i have agree with you why cross a family of birds if they don't need to............donny james
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Alohazona
623 posts
May 24, 2009
8:29 PM
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BigWilly,
There are several reasons to cross Familys.The one I personally endorse would be distantly related or even closer,but not necessarily to close.
There is also a difference on how a novice crosses[just to cross and see what comes out],and what and experienced fancier does to bring in a trait that is beyond his reach with his current stock.
Once you start selecting birds from these crosses you will see you will be breeding what you specifically like, what ever the trait or traits may be.
It helps to keep your initial pairs to an absolute minimum,[like 3 pair max]then select for your trait with at least a couple birds,then you will have half brother sister matings.What you decide to do beyond that,again ,is specifically your own choice.Hopefully at some point of this you will find some pre-potent matings,so you can produce some real good birds and pick the best from them to further your new line
I repeat again,[there are several reasons to outcross or cross].Make sure you have the discipline to to hang on to good birds when you see them,if you can do that,you will have alot on your side as far as time.
I am not and advocate of standing still with these birds.My intuition tells me you will know when these types of things need to be done,when an opportunity arises.
The comment of down breeding one family to try and make another better is totally irrelevant.The are good matings and bad matings and it is just that simple,whether it is inbreeding,line breeding,or distant families.Hope this helps....Aloha,Todd
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Victor Hurtado
68 posts
May 24, 2009
10:25 PM
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paul right most ppl make their family cause ppl dont recognize the fancier but the family of birds...
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RodSD
252 posts
May 24, 2009
11:17 PM
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Crossing in homers is done to add vigor because inbreeding seems to weaken them performance wise.
Obviously you have to cross families that are equal or better than yours.
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Scott
2183 posts
May 25, 2009
8:51 AM
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Paul, how are you breeding the crosses ? what are you seeing when breeding cross to cross ? The reason I'm asking is that I am expermenting on some Starley crosses on one of my lines, I am looking for a more easily to manage old bird.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2184 posts
May 25, 2009
8:58 AM
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I have been hammered with this also even though I have been working this family over a decade,you better be making the right selection or it doesnt matter who's name or what bird is behind them, one thing is for sure they won't stay the same.
If you notice though few have success regardless of what family they fly,easy it aint.
(I often answer that I crossed so I would not ride some elses coat tails.......I have heard it time and time again....He only won because he got the birds from XYZ...or he is just winning with someone elses birds.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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fhtfire
1919 posts
May 25, 2009
1:23 PM
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Scott,
I am getting good results on breeding the crosses....hell you have seen..you have been in my backyard....but anyway....This is kind of how I do it....I will breed a cross to a cros....50/50 to 50/50....I will also breed a cross back to the grandfather or grandmother on each side.....I then take those offspring and breed to cousins and great uncles or even uncles our aunts.....I also will breed a 3/4 cross back Mort back to a Pure Ruby.....or a 3/4 ruby back to a pure mort...I breed a 3/4 Ruby back to a 3/4 mort.....I have had my best breeding...with cousins....and taking the crossed offspring back to the grand parents....or Great Uncles or Aunts...Even Uncle and Aunt has worked out.....
It seems to me that I am getting good results as long as I keep hopping back and fourth from the Ruby's to the Morts....when a 3/4 Mort comes up...I will bring it back to a Pure Ruby....and I am circling the wagons around select pairs....or not pair...select birds...it appears that my Blue Bar Cock on the Mort side is in everything that is hitting the stock loft...as well as my Ruby Baldy Cock and my 50/50 lavender cock...and Pure Ruby Mealy Hen...as long as those birds are in the mix....and I keep hitting back to birds carrying the above mentioned birds blood...it has been pretty good...it seems as long as there is at least one generation of a different hen or cock in the mix from either side and not of the birds I mentioned above..it keeps the spice.
The crosses..or my Flashover strain.....is the easiest to manage...you dont have to do alot to prep them....and they seem to do something everytime I open the door...it is rare that they just fly in circles with a couple breaks here and there....
Scott....one of the big things I was pushing for besides the norm was birds that were manageable...I like a bird that hammers it out.....but I like a bird that ENJOYS hammering it out.....and does not have to be broken down to hammer it out.
Give me a call...it is easier to say on the phone then on the typing....but this is basically how I did it with my livestock to keep the vigor and traits that I like....
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1920 posts
May 25, 2009
1:36 PM
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I also picked up a couple more Pure Ruby's that are young birds to start adding into the mix...since my older Rubys are starting to get old and I want to start working in the younger Ruby rollers into the mix so I still have pure to go back to.
What I am seeing now is that the look of my birds is slowly changing to what I have been looking for....a medium sized bird.....with POWER.....balance....speed is what I like and depth...only the deeper birds hit the stock loft....and they are all starting to look the same and feel the same in the hand....
Scott you have the breeding experience to make it work....just experiment...and dont be afraid to go away of you established family if the path leads you that way...I really have to clear my mind of favoritism when I make a stock loft decision....I also have no problem breeding out of my other birds and if my Red Baldy Mort produces a superstar...even though his blood is not all over the stock loft...the baldy offspring superstar will get a chance in the loft...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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j .wanless
774 posts
May 25, 2009
1:58 PM
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hi all
this is a subject ive been thinking about today.
ive had my family of birds for a long time now my main stock cock is 15 + his father was 18 .im getting a few problems thats making me think its time to put a cross into them.it may be just the area i live in im quite close to the sea about 8 miles .quite a lot of fanciers here have the same problem as me with thier birds flying high quite often.so thats 1 of my problems.the other is 1 i 1st noticed in africa with my birds at 2 diffrent houses.birds staying on the 1 wing all the time.ive never had the problem before but the last 3 years ive noticed it starting to happen more + more.its only with my y/brds never my old birds.ive been watching them tonight + theyre starting to do it more often.any good ideas would be welcome.
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j .wanless
775 posts
May 25, 2009
2:32 PM
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hi 0221
im feeding all my flying birds on a wheatened down y/brd mix.my old brds i have to work with.but my y.brds get quite a good feed as i dont like to starve y/brds.i never have problems with flying the time .if anything i could cut the flying back.it was mentioned to me tonight to try flying them on only barley.barley is something i have hardley ever used.
so know little about .although tippler men use it often.as they say its easy to control thier birds on it.as far as im aware im the only 1 that has this problem in my area thats why i was thinking it may be time to cross my birds.as it seems to be happening each year.i intend to split the kit tomorrow + make my w/c team up with around 6-8 y/brds in it.+ put the 8 old brds in with the y/brds.i/ll let you know how it goes.do you see much of the 1 wing flying over your side.
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Alohazona
624 posts
May 25, 2009
2:33 PM
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j.wanless,
I have noticed similar occurrences with my birds,although what I have now is nothing close to what I had 3 years ago.
What I have noticed is, the seasons are very inconsistent here in the islands.Yes, we do have volcanic action here and what we call vog or sulfuric hazy conditions.It is actually more than that,longer less rainy winters and longer periods absent of our precious trade winds.So atmospherically speaking much different and I have been in the islands over 30 years.
My plumeiria trees are usually blooming by mid February and just started in May.Some call it El Nino.These are subtle things that I notice,but for the birds, the K-factor is their way of life.....Aloha,Todd
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pigeon pete
309 posts
May 25, 2009
3:07 PM
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I think you can end up breeding a close family into right or left handed (winged ) birds. A guy in the Midlands told me that his birds NEVER changed wings and always flew the same way around. That is Steve Taylor and I don't know if he has a close family of birds or not.
Sometimes you see birds moving in the kit as though they are going to change direction but the rest of the kit drags them around and around.
If I thought I had this problem I would look for rollers that will roll at both ends of a figure eight pattern because the one wingers are probably keeping the kit on the 'easy turn' as Bill Pensom called it.
Some kits of rollers will fly one direction and do nothing until they start to turn, and then they break or just mill about and then decide to return to the wing they were on. These birds have learned that turning a certain way will stimulate the roll response and avoid it by flying the other way.
My theory is that when a roller is flying in a circle, that one side of the brain is dominant and when they change direction then the other side becomes dominant.
At the point of change there is a little cognitive dissonance that triggers the roll. This is just my theory based on complete ignorance,lol but it makes sense to me. Using human anatomy as a reference, we have two brains in essence, right and left. Some people are predominantly left brainers and vice verca.
If my thinking has any validity, and we already accept that if we breed selectively and practice in-breeding, then it is highly likely that we will end up with birds with similar characteristics, then this could include being left or right wing/brain biased.
The ideal is of course to breed birds that are ambidextrous (wrong word I know) and birds that do not try to avoid the roll.
Young bird kits will go though all sorts of flying abberations, flying on one wing being one, and they usually sort themselves out given time.
Also weather can affect the flying pattern.
We have had some days lately where there is very little air movement, so the kit can lose its normal flying pattern because thay have no breeze to fly against. If you swim in a river and want to stay near the same stretch of bank (loft)you will of neccesity be facing upstream most of the time, but if you swim in a still pond you may just swim around in circles. It's the same for a kit of rollers. The strength and direction of the wind has a major bearing on the flying pattern.
Yours,
Pete.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 2:01 AM
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winwardrollers
233 posts
May 25, 2009
9:42 PM
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Scott
I see that you refered this to Paul but I have to make a comment or two..... "Paul, how are you breeding the crosses ? what are you seeing when breeding cross to cross ? The reason I'm asking is that I am expermenting on some Starley crosses on one of my lines, I am looking for a more easily to manage old bird."
My young birds are easy to manage, Until the second year. I have change feeding this year and it has made a lot of differance...I need to keep working the birds on this program to see how it works through the hotter summer months, molt then in to fall before I make any conclusions but have been able to manage older birds much better this year doing so.
Back to crossing...I really think we can find what we need in most famlies were are working with... with out having to cross.....end of story. I have a base family that will not be crossed and will improve through out the years..have so far..why would it discontinue?
I would ..shop around with other families as well.... I test a differant family now and then.
I have been working on a cross with my Plona/Smith birds just for fun. Scott Campbell of Ogden, Utah... had.. some of great individual Norm Reed Birds. I got one hen and started years ago. Breed five birds out of this pair and keep one cock birds then went on with this cock. (never going back to the original hen again) I am breeding... towards my original family only... and have found some great birds.
I decided that if it worked once I would try it again.. I found a cock from the Norm Reed family of birds again and breed a bunch last year and only found birds I didn't like...I think it was the cock I started with..some things I didn't like about his wing structure...abanded that project and will just work with the first project.
If I was going to outcross I would introduce the out cross then breed away from it and not re introduce it again into the line....You will have enough new genes in one mating to last a life time..lol...unless you really want to pull your birds toward the outcross.
It sounds like Paul wants about half of the traits from each family. So he keeps stirring the pot..it seem to me the more you stir the longer it will take to get more of a constant..in your birds. The new blood make things interesting no doubt.
I am thinking birds flying on one wing is a feed/training problem more than anything. I have flown young birds just form differant rounds during the year that fly in there kits differant..kit management is the problem here I would think.
Bwinward
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 7:05 AM
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winwardrollers
235 posts
May 27, 2009
6:32 AM
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You are producing you own family/line of birds just by mere.. breeding them for a few year's...wither you cross breed or not.
Good initial question/statement BigWilly
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 7:07 AM
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fhtfire
1922 posts
May 27, 2009
7:40 AM
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You are right...after a couple of generations they are your birds because you made the decisions on what to breed to what....but when you cross them...there are no ifs ands or buts...they are 100% yours.....like My Flashover birds are 100% my family...I am on my 4 or 5th generation of the flashover....anyway....You only cross if you want to see if another family will add somehting good or they will mix well....I would NEVER cross just to make my own family....unless you have a good background and can do it.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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topnotch uk
517 posts
May 27, 2009
1:51 PM
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4 the last 10 years most of my birds from 1 of my lofts came from the north of england these birds i breed in big numbers the ones i found to be the best rollers was the birds that never kit these birds were very sharp in the roll and ten-did to all ways fly in the distance the kit was all ways pulling them self apart as young-birds thay would take weeks to start to kit then to weeks down the road i would loose them so i thought right i will try some thing so i put 7 george-mason cocks to 7 north birds this year i have breed 2 kits ov cross-breed birds and i kid you not these birds took of the loft and kitted right away ther are no birds out the kits thay fly in your face thay are just on the roll and got a very good slow wing action and i have not lost not one the pure north birds this year i have lost over 50 young birds but i will say one thing the north birds put the spin in the birds this year i will see the results i hope ?
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Bill C
360 posts
May 27, 2009
11:41 PM
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Scott, you might not like this comming from me, however I will say it anyway. Over the past 7 years of flying rollers and slowly picking up clues as I continue the hobby. I truely believe that the hard to handle birds are as simple as changing the feed to mix. Mix with pellets or anything but not straight wheat to ge the birds to roll.
I think what happens is guys feed straight wheat to get the best roll out of thier birds and pick out the stock in the air based on birds that were starved down. Hense they are producing breeders and kit birds that need to be starved down to get the most roll out of them.
On the other hand, if you feed mix and only adjust the amount the same as with wheat and fly your new kit birds with out breaking them down too much you will still have birds that roll good. You may only get two or three a year that are worthy of the breeding pen but now you are on your way to having breeders that produce birds that dont have to be starved down to roll.
This is the way I have always picked out birds out to breed from. They always have to want to roll with out me having to work really hard to get the roll out of them. Over time if I am right then I will have birds that will roll no matter what I feed them. I also have the patience to wait 2 years for those birds to roll with out expecting them to make the team in 6 months either. It is sort of like Monty said with the voluntary roller as aposed to the ones you have to work your _ _ _ off with to get to roll.
I do like your idea to try the Starley bird with a pair or two. Nobody said you have to continue that if it doesnt pan out. You don't ruin a family with an out cross, If it doesn't work then you wont be putting any of those into the gene pool right. If your birds go back to Starley they would be an total outcross but a distant cross. Get one that has white flights if you can LOL! Bill C
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 11:48 PM
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Scott
2197 posts
May 28, 2009
3:36 PM
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Brad, it sounds like exactly where I am at, as my gene pool narrows I breed more good ones than ever before, but them old birds give me fits unless I keep them on a short leash, this family allready carried everything I could ask for within the right birds of coarse.
(My young birds are easy to manage, Until the second year. I have change feeding this year and it has made a lot of differance...I need to keep working the birds on this program to see how it works through the hotter summer months, molt then in to fall before I make any conclusions but have been able to manage older birds much better this year doing so.
Back to crossing...I really think we can find what we need in most famlies were are working with... with out having to cross.....end of story. I have a base family that will not be crossed and will improve through out the years..have so far..why would it discontinue?)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
236 posts
May 28, 2009
6:13 PM
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Scott
What do you mean by short leash my I ask?
I don't like to feed up and down..I like to feed more constant for 90% of the time.
I like to feed at night so the birds are not on a full craw all day. Feeding at night doen't happen all the time but...rollers on a full stomach during the day causes problems.
I like to feed a balance diet..I have only had really great flies when the birds felt strong.
The the lighter the birds get the longer this family of birds fly. Cutting feed back with lots of exercise will make astronauts.
I way off the subject of crossbreeding....
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 28, 2009 9:08 PM
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Scott
2198 posts
May 29, 2009
12:04 AM
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Bill, I have allways heard this statement below but never have I understood what it meant, a stiff is a stiff regardless of what you do,wheat is mearly used for condition.
(I think what happens is guys feed straight wheat to get the best roll out of thier birds and pick out the stock in the air based on birds that were starved down. Hense they are producing breeders and kit birds that need to be starved down to get the most roll out of them.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
2199 posts
May 29, 2009
12:07 AM
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Brad, I understand body wt. and fly , the Starleys are much deeper Keel than what I'm used to and have the feel of more meat which we feel may be the difference, explain the feed at night verses day please.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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winwardrollers
238 posts
May 29, 2009
2:19 PM
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Scott
I have handle quite a few Starley birds and would say that I like most all of them... in regards to keel.... every once in a while you will find one that has a deeper keel than my liking.
Night verses morning feeding would be a good topic to start..I will start the new topic.
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Bill C
363 posts
May 29, 2009
9:33 PM
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Big Willy, Did you know that 514 was a cross? Did you know that all Pensoms imports were from different flyers in the UK which means they were crosses here in the US. Some cross dont work but some do.
All the Jaconettes I have are crosses, Chan Grover, Leonard Techara and Chuck Roe. They all had Jac backgrounds but were still crosses just nota total outcross like 514.
I suppose you could argue Bill Pensom was beeding them and not me! that would be a good point. Bill C
Last Edited by on May 29, 2009 9:40 PM
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3757
1247 posts
May 30, 2009
12:07 AM
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Bill - First, give me your definition of a cross and then I will make a bet with you.
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 12:25 AM
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fhtfire
1929 posts
May 30, 2009
7:58 AM
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Making a new "Strain" by breeding genetically different animals....my scientific definition....when we breed two different families....it is not cross breeding by definition....now breeding a homer with a roller is cross breeding...to make a new strain of Pigeon....
Now for us...we cross families....the crossing is to produce a new strain of roller pigeon...by breeding families that are genetically different....or are they...LOL...anyway...
3757....be carefull with betting Bill C....when it comes to knowledge about Pensom....He spends ALOT of time with Chan Grover....and Chan Grover was a good friend with Pensom...not an aquaintance...but actually a good friend.....so lots of stuff that we Hear or read...is sometimes wives tales or hear say....but Chan has cleared up alot of that when you meet him...
Bet him...I cant wait for this...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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3757
1248 posts
May 30, 2009
10:17 AM
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Rock and roll - There are a myriad of guys who were friends with Bill and I will bet you Chan and whomever else you want to through in. This takes nothing away from Chan but anytime I put my money down I have my facts and data together!
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fhtfire
1930 posts
May 30, 2009
10:36 AM
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LOL...That is why I want to see this bet..LOL..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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3757
1249 posts
May 30, 2009
10:50 AM
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Paul - No problem, I just want to know what his definition is?
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winwardrollers
245 posts
May 30, 2009
11:34 AM
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3757
My definition of crossbreeding when dealing with preforming burmingham rollers is ..taking differant established families of...Burmingham rollers... and breeding them together.
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 9:19 PM
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3757
1250 posts
May 30, 2009
12:40 PM
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Bill, I am going to use science as to the meaning of an established family and will bet you $10,000 that on both sides 514 has common ancestors within 2 to four generations (on both her father and mothers side that are the same birds ( even on 492's side)?
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 3:34 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
420 posts
May 30, 2009
6:41 PM
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As I understand it, Pensom didn't breed 514, George Whitney did. And it was bred off of 2 J.L. Smith birds. Pensom supposedly lent the pair to Whitney.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 6:42 PM
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Bill C
365 posts
May 30, 2009
8:03 PM
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Hi 3757, I am refering to a cross as ( in my mind with rollers) there are bloodlines and inbred families. Then there are rollers that have been bred originating from Pensom imports that are the basis of most all the birds we have now. But once John, give some birds to Joe and Dan and they inturn give a few birds to Mark and Tim They all start to take on the breeding practices of the guys who have them. Once the original breeder is not pairing them up they defintately change. Good, bad or stay the same in some ways. So I am Saying that because I have some birds from three men all with Jac backgrounds that they are all three different and that was a cross. They all will trace back to Richard Jaconette and then Pensom but have been bred/crossed on many birds since the original Jaconettes.
I respect what ever you want to say 3757, I will not bet $10K but I will bet you lunch or dinner that way I could talk to you more! Or I could buy you a beer at the convention if you will speak to me, LOL!
I am saying a out cross is a Jaconette with a continental for example they are so far from each other that they are only related in name, Birmingham roller. It makes sence to me but I could be wrong as I have put my foot in my mouth before. How would you set me straight La Ron.
Paul, you need to visit Chan more. He is not a die hard pensom guy but repectfully tells the truth. Pensom had many ideas certainly liked being the roller King in the USA. I think he is the greatest for his writtings and books and how so much he said still applies today. Chan gives Pensom credit for putting the spin (Velocity) in the rollers but I think he also sees him as Plona or Smith and the others just not on the top of a totom pole like most of us do to him.
There is a guy named Ivanov who was very good at inseminatiing animals and did so with 500 horses in between 1870 when he was born and 1932 when he died The soviet government finance him to cross a Chimp and monkey or ape with 5 women and all five women died. What does that have to do with anything, they wanted to prove Darwinism and evolution but failed.
Dogs are dogs and cats are cats and pigeons are pigeons Oh and people are people, all with the same ancestors. (I primed an rental today with oil base primer so I might be a little higher than usual today.) So maybe a cross would technically be with a fantail but I am trying to stay within the zone of rollers as the main source of how I am saying cross.
What say you! Bill C ( I stole that line from Bill O'Reilly)
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2009 9:41 PM
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winwardrollers
246 posts
May 30, 2009
9:51 PM
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Bill C
I agree with you..even if you are on Oil based Primer...lol
492 side came Bill Richards or Birds Imported by Stan Plona from Bill Richards...who gets birds from Harry Young....
You have Ben Homers birds...
Years of breeding By J Leroy Smith from the first imports..New bird or two imported..
Plona's turn at breeding..
George Whitney..bands the bird..
If we looked up Document we could go on and on and only go back 2 to 5 generations back.
bwinward
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3757
1251 posts
May 30, 2009
10:21 PM
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Bill, I would love to speak with you and I think soon you will understand also what I am saying. Let's put it in simple terms 463/1613 is only a few generations top and bottom of 514 both on the hen and cock side and I will go deeper and show you all of the close breeding with my beer when I see you. I did not bet you to show that I know everything because no one does but I will show you that it is not even close to the example of "the Jaconette with a continental cross example because that would clearly be a total outcross with no same ancestors within 4-5 generations."
Many people discredit others and I will not do it because once someone knows the entire story thier belief system should change but as we see in the world today this is not always the case. Lets get together Bill.
Last Edited by on May 30, 2009 10:34 PM
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winwardrollers
249 posts
May 31, 2009
8:32 AM
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3757
It going to take a few beers to explain .. "all the close breeding" like you said. You have 463/1613 scattered out..a little here ..some there..not close breeding in my book. Sounds like it is considered close breeding to you..you had my interest until I looked it up. I do have to agree with you that it is about as tight as most families are breed. If you breed 514 back to 463 you would start to bottle neck the gene up ...how about 463 sires 514...as is the gene pool is pretty wide open.
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 31, 2009 8:56 AM
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3757
1252 posts
May 31, 2009
11:17 AM
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I have not explained yet so if you want to get together lets talk. I think many roller breeders do not use science in terms of close relation. If it is as you say than if two people had the same great grand parents on both sides they would be considered very distant relatives and could get married correct? I do not think so but lets get together. Oh and yes I will show you the close breeding that you do not see on the pedigree.
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Hector Coya
492 posts
May 31, 2009
12:04 PM
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Talk about cross breeding,i whent to my friend Spanky,He has a half ringneck dove crosed to a pigeon,
man the bird looks diferent,like the dove color in some ways bot the head like a pigeon,he keeps it loos and it flys around chasing all the wild doves. just thought id throw this in for the fun if it,i told him to cross it back to a pigeon,Actualy Spankys brother is the one that crossed them.
Hector Coya
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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winwardrollers
251 posts
May 31, 2009
1:49 PM
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Hector
Some where between you friends ringneck dove cross and Brother/Sister mating of an established burmingham family of rollers is were we will all differ on what is close breeding and what is not.
I don't see many pedigrees that come after 514...there I'm guessing is you will find tighter breeding. When we find a good birds we tend to work around it..and interest to cross is lost for a time.
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 31, 2009 1:56 PM
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Hector Coya
493 posts
May 31, 2009
5:03 PM
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I just broght that up to just show how the speicieas can cross,i dont think the offspring could ever mate back to eather side,they usually come out Mules.
Hector
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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bigwilly
958 posts
May 31, 2009
10:32 PM
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Hey guys thanks for all the feedback. some valuable pnfo on all point of views
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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Bill C
368 posts
Jun 01, 2009
8:36 PM
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3757, I really look foward to meeting you and would love to sit and chat about and learn what ever you have to show on 514 and any other ideas you might have. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.
I am all ears when I listen to guys who love rollers.
Big Willy, your welome. Its nice when a post gets deeper and there is more communication going on. I know I probaly was not a favorite but just thought to say your welcome, since I've met you. Bill C
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