j .wanless
776 posts
May 26, 2009
7:40 AM
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hi all
ive started this post to see if any of you know not guess
why birds start to fly on the 1 wing.as mine are doing it + its getting on my nerves.on another post pigeon pete said close familys can develop this style of flying + i would like to know if thats true.as it may be time for me to cross my birds.i would like to say its only my y/brds that do it never my old birds.and if left they will eventualy come right .but it can take a while.its only the last 3 years theyve started to do it.0021 mentioned something i intend to try + thats split the kit up + mix them with my old birds.would be grateful for any good advice.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2979 posts
May 26, 2009
8:38 AM
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Hey John,let me ask you a ? when you say the young fly on one wing do they do it when low more often because I have young do that but at low hieght and I always hold an adult bird to toss at them when coming pass which startle the team and makes them turn another direction..and breaks them from that habit.is this what you talking about..
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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j .wanless
777 posts
May 26, 2009
9:01 AM
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hi ralph
at 1st it was only when they 1st went out.then they would fly a great pattern.but now they just turn to the left all the time very rarely turning to the right
a few years ago i sent some birds to s/a + they had the same problem with my birds.i watched a kit of y/brds bred off my birds fly on the left wing for around 15 -20 minutes they were awful but when they switched wings they put 1 of the best breaks ive ever seen from a y/brd kit.mine are the same they do nothing while on the left wing but as soon as they switch they roll really well.im wondering if its because my birds are so closely related.as i dont think any one else in my area has the problem.and theres lots of roller men near me.
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0221
286 posts
May 26, 2009
9:04 AM
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John, I started to reply, but I type with one finger and could get very involved. I want My young birds to fly on both wings, so I train them with old birds. I'm not concered with my pigeon rolling until they can fly the time, for Me thats 45 minutes to 1 hour at this young age. I want them to fly high 500ft and up. I don't want them hungry, I want there mind on enjoying there time out while there building wing strength and developing body structure and muscle. Mine fly high and on both wings most of the time, in this training if they fly on one wing they fly in big circles. Not fast and tight like racing homers. When they come down, they circle the house a few time's and drop. The old birds go in out of habit and the young birds follow, I throw them a hand full of something and put them away. 45min. to an hour later I give them there half ration. By the way, this time of year they flew at 5:15-5:30am. At 5:30 pm they eat there other half ration and lock them up for the night. When they devlope the roll, things change a bit.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 9:23 AM
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j .wanless
778 posts
May 26, 2009
9:24 AM
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hi 0221
that makes 2 of us i too 1 finger wonder + getting faster all the time lol.mine have just started to do it now that they are coming on to the roll quite nice
they were flying well until then.what you said about mixing them in with the old birds makes sence.as years ago thats how i used to fly my y/brds especially
when they started to roll.i would fly the real good young rollers with old birds as there was less chance of them taking daft knocks.im going to put a few in my old birds tonight.but it very windy here.
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0221
287 posts
May 26, 2009
9:34 AM
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John, I'm not sure, but it seems to Me that training changed when flyers started to fly early developing pigeons. The B.O.P. is a big reason for this. In my area I only have 7 safe months to fly them. Places like california where the the weather is good most of the time, those flyers are forced to fly early developing rollers so they can try to beat the preditors.
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3451 posts
May 26, 2009
10:12 AM
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BOP teach them to do these things in a lot of cases. About the time they resettle and fly a good pattern to score from the BOP will migrate back through and here we go again with this tight left wing with each bird trying to be on the inside of the turn. This way when the kit is attacked they believe they are protected by being on the inside. That is my take on the thing. The evasive "S" pattern also emerges....it is thier escape pattern from the BOP I believe.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 10:14 AM
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j .wanless
779 posts
May 26, 2009
10:25 AM
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hi all
sorry lads but my y/brd kit has touch wood never been hit by the bop.what seemed to start it was when 1st going out they flew really tight + fast around the house .i knew then that it was a matter of time before they started to fly on the 1 wing.as the 2 previous years they done the same.so its got nothing to do with the bops.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2980 posts
May 26, 2009
11:42 AM
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Hey John,seem to me your family has developed this trait.from what your telling us here...the birds you sent to S.A are doing the same thing and the folks living around your area are not having this problem.so it can't be enviroment..you know what I mean..
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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0221
291 posts
May 26, 2009
1:07 PM
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John, I think You could cure it with handling. Look for those problem birds. I don't think you bred for that trait! How could you just end up with it? You did'nt stock or breed off birds that had that bad habit did you? You need to go out there and figure it out. You know what to do! Do it. I have made excusses for birds that would wonder off or not fit in with the program, (because the were so good in performance).Just to have it bite Me in the ass later down the road. I'm not saying thats what happened to you, but before I started crossing my birds out i'd check. What birds were you breeding out of before this happened? May go back to that and take anything you've put in the breeder in the last 3 years back in the air. If its not in training its in your breeding.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 1:11 PM
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j .wanless
780 posts
May 26, 2009
1:32 PM
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hi all
0221 i think ralph may be on the right track as my birds are probaly the closest bred birds in the uk.
i also use the same birds in the breeder each year only swapping them around as i rarely put the same pairs back together though 1 or 2 do go back for a few rounds.i do introduce 1 or 2 yearlings each year just to keep the bloodline that bit younger.as a lot of my birds are quite old.but again like ralph said no one else seems to suffer with it in my area but there again neither do the people that fly my birds.
in my area.only myself + 3 s/a have had the problem.
ive took your advice 0221 + split them up a little flying the majority of y/brds with 6 old birds to start with.the best of my y/brds i have put them with my old bird kit.i flew the y/brds tonight in strong winds + 6 old birds.they were not as bad but that could have been the wind.i will fly them each night + let you know how they go.thanks lads for the input.
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0221
292 posts
May 26, 2009
1:35 PM
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I'm hoping the best for you.
Last Edited by on May 26, 2009 1:36 PM
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Velo99
2128 posts
May 26, 2009
2:08 PM
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Wanless,
I dont know about the English birds but the Texas rollers fly on one wing cuz their left testicle hangs down lower than the right creating drag that forces them to fly counterclockwise.
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
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\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__14___()_)\__\
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0221
293 posts
May 26, 2009
2:56 PM
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Velo99,
If you pull 2 or 3 tail feathers out of the left side it will balance them out.
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Scott
2195 posts
May 26, 2009
4:12 PM
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Start pulling the ones on the top perch, I just had to do the same with my Y/B kit.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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pigeon pete
315 posts
May 26, 2009
4:41 PM
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Hi,
I'm not saying that this trait has been bred into Johns birds but only that it is a possibility,
0221 said,
" I don't think you bred for that trait! How could you just end up with it?"
Well, we often end up with traits we don't really want.
When we inbreed we do it to propagate certain qualities, but along the way we reveal other traits that may have lain hidden. If they are undesirable we illiminate those birds from the programe and so 'purify' the strain. Any traits in an inbred family tend to be multiplied and can fixed throughout the family.
Many inbreeding experiments fail because a major flaw reveals itself in all or most of the birds produced.
Some families will go 2 or 3 generations of close breeding and will start to deteriorate.
If a trait for left or right flying exists, it is also possible that by close breeding we could arrange the genes in the family all the same way, so that all birds are prediminantly left or right flyers.
I would guess that it is not clockwise or anticlockwise flying that would be the trait, but clockwise or anticlockwise rolling.
To explain, some birds roll when changing from the left turn to the right, some the other way, and some will be stimulated to roll by swiching wings whichever diretion they are circling.
If for a minute we consider that this is true, and we know some rollers will avoid the roll, Imagine if all your birds were only stimulated to roll when the changed from the left wing to the right.
The kit could soon learn the habit of flying the 'easy turn'because there are no birds keen to avoid rolling by going the other way around.
A mix of left and right wing birds would tend to keep the kit on a figure eight pattern, but ideally our birds should be stimulated on both turns and be happy to roll at both ends of a figure eight flying pattern.
This is all just my theory of course, but it seems a good explination to me for the kits of rollers than always fly one way around.
Pete.
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 1:36 AM
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Bill C
358 posts
May 26, 2009
9:05 PM
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We have many birds fly in circles during our flies, The judges alway say there is a lead bird pulling them to the right ( or left in your case). I have had a judge even tell me the bird that was the culprit. Which is probably why Scott said the top perch birds will cause it.
I have found the too rich a feed will not help but milo to slow them down really helps me get birds fly 8 pattern sometimes. Bill C
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Shadow
384 posts
May 27, 2009
1:06 AM
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Hi John
Noticed something similar in my first bred yongsters this year,when they began flying,but only when they were low,before lifting,or when coming down to land, almost turning on a coin so to speak,when they are at a decent height,they never showed this, I put some older birds with them resulting in lifting them almost straight up,and likewise coming down,which sorted it instantly,I did keep older birds in boxes with them rather than just flying with them, personally think its just a bad trait caused by certain birds for whatever reason,exhuberance,youth,condition,wouldnt really think its anything to do with breeding,but hey dont put any of those spinners with them ,just in case l o l,really us younger ones can always learn something from older guys like yourself,now why should rollers be any different l o l.
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winwardrollers
234 posts
May 27, 2009
6:06 AM
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Pulling birds that are strong/dominate or at least take some feed a way from them...Scott has a valid point.
Bill C. has good insite with getting the kit to slow down by a change of feed.
Getting the birds to set up in a small breeze..to much wind would create bad habits.
Mentioned above.... to put a couple of older hens in the young bird kit.
I watch for flight patterns with my young birds and that is about all that matters to me other than height and fly time.. until they are 6 to 8 months old.
I think it is bad habits/routine that the young birds get into....that make them stick to one wing.
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 27, 2009 9:40 AM
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j .wanless
783 posts
May 27, 2009
9:36 AM
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hi all
flew the kit this afternoon still very breezy left 6 old birds in kit .they blew out of sight for a few min
then appeared at a good hieght.they were flying smashing for a while then when getting lower they started to turn on the left 95pc of the time.though they are not turning fast like before.so fingers crossed.
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j .wanless
789 posts
May 28, 2009
8:41 AM
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hi all
just flew the kit bit of high pressure here.they had thier daft few minutes when 1st going out whizzing around the houses.then they lifted to a good hieght.
they only seem to fly in big circles always turning on the left wing.most people may not notice it as they fly very steady once up at a good hieght.kitting like glue + a nice steady wing speed.i sat in my chair + did not have to move once they flew right above me all the time.but in almost an hour they changed wing maybe a dozen times.
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j .wanless
790 posts
May 28, 2009
9:12 AM
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0221
i took the best 6 y/brds out of the kit + put them in
the o/brd kit.but have not flew them for 2 days as its been too windy.but theres a few in my trouble kit comming on the roll quite nice.but they only seem to show when they change thier wing.
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winwardrollers
237 posts
May 28, 2009
9:05 PM
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John
It sounds like your birds are flying to fast..I will bet you if you can slow their pace they will start turning directions.
Bwinward
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speedball
397 posts
May 29, 2009
5:02 AM
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i used to have ollies birds that used to do that. soon f*cked em off. its a big problem and a genetic problem that will get worser and worser. only my opinion!
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j .wanless
792 posts
May 29, 2009
8:27 AM
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hi all
jay i tend to agree with you i too think its genetic.
but given time they do come out of it .but its really frustrating for now.b winward on the contrary my birds fly really slow.the only time they fly fast is when swirling around the roof tops when 1st going out.
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winwardrollers
240 posts
May 29, 2009
2:54 PM
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John
I see now... the birds fly fast until they get up to height to do their work.
Well that is easy, if flying on one wing is genetic you just find a birds to cross in.... that is flying in the opposite direction than your's and cross breed hard...lol ...don't think so...My guess is we get loft blind and get in a bad habit of how we do things and don't try new ideas that come to mind.
I have seen.. know to be figure eight flying birds..fly one wing.
I would be interested to see if when you feed the birds you waited until all birds were looking at you and thne you through feed to the side of the group of birds that they didn't like to turn to..let them eat the feed then make them face you again... throw the feed to that side again..make bird face you then throw the feed to the side again...they are going to have to be hungry for this to work..I am wondering if this will transfer to the sky...after you take a cock or two out of the kit ...that you feel may be the reason they stay on one wing. It maybe worth a try...don't know.
I am betting that you have other kits the fly on a differant wing or some one that has your birds that fly in an opposite direction.
bwinward
Last Edited by on May 29, 2009 3:00 PM
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speedball
398 posts
May 29, 2009
5:02 PM
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here are john heres a logical one i heard from old folk years back. 1 single bird leads your kit and is very dominant in the trait. something in your loft is breeding that bird. when it finaly manufactures or turns out it joins with the kit performance. your birds go back to normal. you have to look on the said corner of your kit to find the culprit. he will give you a sign. its is similar as the kit keeps dropping early and the culprit is the one with his legs out. its an old theory but dont quote me. ive had it passed down to me. speedball!
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j .wanless
863 posts
Jul 14, 2009
1:50 PM
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hi all
just like to let you all know how the kit are doing now.i tried 1 or 2 things that were suggested but did not seem to work.in the end i just left them alone + they came out of it themselves .they are now flying brilliant with some top class rollers among them.
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3186 posts
Jul 14, 2009
2:21 PM
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Hey J... good to hear that...did you find out if the others in SA and around your area that had that same problem came out of it too.
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Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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J_Star
2018 posts
Jul 14, 2009
6:15 PM
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J, it is the feed that makes them fly in circles. When the birds are fed rich feed they become strong and that pattern will form. Slow their wing beat down and they will change that pattern in no time.
Jay
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j .wanless
864 posts
Jul 15, 2009
11:01 AM
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hi all
ralph im not sure about any of the african lads though johnny conradie seems to have sorted it out.
but about 3 weeks ago i was judging in another area of the uk + i was amazed how many kits flew on the 1 wing .i had hanness the w/c judge marking for me + i pointed it out to him.almost every kit we judged on that day flew on the 1 wing.and i was thinking it was only mine lol.
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J_Star
2020 posts
Jul 15, 2009
11:26 AM
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John, if you said that all the kits on that day were on the wing…that will eliminate the genetic part of the puzzle. The question to ask now is what was so common among those kits in the different areas that made them fly on one wing? If one bird is leading the flock, then how could that happen to all the kits on the same fly day!! I bet that you will come out to conclude that it was environment (the condition of the weather) and fancier induced (lack of interrupting weather condition to promote the proper feed) rather than one bird is leading the flock.
Jay
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j .wanless
865 posts
Jul 15, 2009
11:40 AM
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hi jay
thats a very good point + something i never thought of
but funny enough at the start of the day it was really foggy infact so bad we thought we may have to cancel it.but later in the day it got quite nice.none of the other flyers had ever said thier birds were flying on the 1 wing + a few read these posts.i will ask most of them + will let you know if it was a one off thing because of the weather.but my own birds jay
i do fly on a decent mix corn but dilute it down with wheat .but it is quite a rich mix so that may have something to do with mine .though im still flying on the same mix + now they fly great.but on another point
jay all my birds fly really slow even when on the 1 wing .only every now + again when turning a tight circle would they fly fast.every one who as seen my birds have commented on the slow wing beat.so thats something else to get you thinking about lol.almost 40 years ive had these bloody things + im still looking for advice lol.
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2009 11:41 AM
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pigeon pete
333 posts
Jul 15, 2009
12:15 PM
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Hi John,
If my old bird were doing this regularly I would try and find out what was causing it but young birds, well they seem to go though this stage most years.
My 1st 15 were flying clockwise all the time.
I added 6 old birds and they steadied up and the second day they they were doing 4 one way to one the other. I've now added another 5 recently weaned off YB's and taken the old hens out, and they still favour clockwise but do go the other way a few times once they gain a little height. I have noticed that they will do a tight turn right but when they change wings the left turn is very wide and steady as though they are avoiding turning too tight, and some times they don't quite manage the left turn and will return to the other wing without fully changing direction.
They usually sort themselves out once they mature, and the circles in the figure 8 are then fairly symetrical.
Pete
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2009 12:16 PM
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j .wanless
866 posts
Jul 16, 2009
9:11 AM
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hi pete
funny enough my birds were flying anti clock wise + i was talking to someone who said they always fly anti clockwise when on the 1 wing.so you have just blown that out lol.but i did try 6 old birds in with them + it worked for about 5 minutes before they went back to thier old ways.in the end i left them to it + they just stopped by themselves.they are now flying great .
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pigeon pete
334 posts
Jul 16, 2009
11:52 AM
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John, Are you looking up and seeing the clockwise rotation or saying clockwise because the birds are turning to their right. I know we can confuse the two.
My birds come out of the loft and spiral upwards on the right wing (turning to their right). If you saw them flying low around the feild you could say they are going clockwise but when they are above you they could be said to be going anticlockwise but they are still on the same wing,lol
Mine acted strange today, they were changing wing but instead of the wide swing around when they first change wings they were doing the fast switch around but they all got confused with much tumbling and had to regroup everytime they tried to change to the left wing. This suggests to me that they are more stimulated by changing to the left wing, and this is maybe why they will often avoid it.
This behavior is quickly learned, but once they get a grip on the roll they will usually turn either way and do not seem to avoid the roll by doing the one-way flying. This may also suggest that adult rollers either don't mind the roll or they enjoy it as they will sometimes fly the easy turn when they feel like it, but will do the figure eight when they are in rolling condition. The same goes for flying out of the kit. YB's will fly above the kit or away from the kit to avoid the stimulation of kit action, but most of them will come back to being good kit birds even though they could roll less by being an outbird if they wanted. So they soon learn several roll avoidance strategies, and can shut the roll off when low, and they can all choose to fly the easy turn as a kit, but when on form these birds do not avoid the triggers, and can do an amazing amount of rolling to the point where you would think they are addicted to rolling.
Pete.
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Alohabirds
161 posts
Jul 16, 2009
12:41 PM
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"funny enough my birds were flying anti clock wise + i was talking to someone who said they always fly anti clockwise when on the 1 wing.so you have just blown that out lol.but i did try 6 old birds in with them + it worked for about 5 minutes before they went back to thier old ways.in the end i left them to it + they just stopped by themselves.they are now flying great "
Aloha John,
It's funny that you mentioned the clockwise and counter clockwise flying. I am flying two families of birds. One is a Jaconette based family and they fly in a clockwise rotation when flying on one wing or when flying low and getting ready to land. The other family is English based with no American blood. Those birds fly in the counter clockwise rotation when on one wing or when getting ready to land.
Could the flying rotation be family based???????? Just an observation I noticed in the birds I fly.
Aloha,
Dexter
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