Ballrollers
GOLD MEMBER
1933 posts
Jun 16, 2009
12:32 PM
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Thanks for sharing Marcus. It's always interesting to see where these guys were coming from.
Cliff
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kcfirl
583 posts
Jun 16, 2009
5:30 PM
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I have come to the conclusion that HAns Rottenbacher is one old timer that I can count on to write something ridiculous in every article.
He says:
(2 all rolldowns must go, even youngsters after thier first thump--no matter how accidental it appeared to be.
(4 Then you go after those that roll while the kit is landing and either thump the roof or just miss the edge and recover before they hit the ground and those that hit the ground, even lightly, during kit landings.
too say this without qualification is BS of the first order and just as bad as those that said to breed based on pedigrees in my opnion.
Ken firl
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nicksiders
GOLD MEMBER
3478 posts
Jun 16, 2009
5:31 PM
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It all pretty well makes sense to me.
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Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
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155
1063 posts
Jun 16, 2009
6:27 PM
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ALL YOU NEW GUYS IN THIS ROLLER HOBBY NEED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THIS (article) IT WILL HELP, I KNOW IT WILL DO GOOD FOR ME TOO.....
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JOSE JIMENEZ AKA EVILLOFT'S
-MESA,ARIZONA-
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JEFF WILSON
3 posts
Jun 16, 2009
7:18 PM
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if aguy could stick to his plans and cull that way you may not have very many birds for awhile.but i bet they would improve. i think to many just let seconds slip in the breeding pens great artical . thanks marcus
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3073 posts
Jun 16, 2009
7:36 PM
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Jeff you took the words right out of my mouth...---------
Ralph.
Life comes down to the choices you make, and then living with the results.
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DeepSpinLofts
1396 posts
Jun 16, 2009
8:30 PM
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Jeff and Ralph my thinking are along the same line as yours. Roller history buffs alike can learn quite a lot from a fellow fancier like Mr. Hans Roettenbacher. In the above passage he has intelligently outlined for us a blueprint (strategic master-plan) full of information on how to go about the profound business of developing a quality kit of aerial performers.
Hans ===> "You can learn more from just being alone with your birds than you can by by bull*hitting with other roller fanciers."
True!
Kenny Easley says the style we are after is the donut. The donut roll is a roll in which the bird spins in a tight ball with a small hole showing from the side. The hole should be no larger than a fifty-cent piece. The preferred ones are tighter still. The hole is the size of a quarter.
...however
Keep in mind that only the correct body type will display a clean hole with the outside of the ball being smooth as well, giving the impression of a donut. Sweeeeet!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2009 8:51 PM
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rtwilliams
GOLD MEMBER
404 posts
Jun 16, 2009
10:14 PM
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I really like this article. It spells it out for you. Last year (my first year) I just wanted a compition kit. I did not cull anything, Only had 30 by the end of the year. I look at my kit and only see a few worthy of being a breeder. A few good, and a few marginal kit birds. Of the 21 I currently have 5 or so that are probally culls. But I have a kit of 20 to compete with.
I am excited that I have 30 plus youngsters and if I get 10 good ones I will have a good kit, added to my current good ones. A sick part of me is excited that I get to choose who sticks around this year, and that I can be selective. If a bird is not doing what I want, in the kit box, flying, trapping, or other, I have some in line that will. It is a good feeling to be in a position that you can choose the best, and not just hope to keep a team together.
I hope the sky sharks don't ruin it all.
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RT Williams
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0221
321 posts
Jun 17, 2009
5:11 AM
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Those that make excuse's, for reasons to keep culls, will disagree with Hans writing's. Although for the serious rollerman or novice, this is information to incorporate into to your program. What could be your reason for keeping poor quality birds?
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Ldogxxx
27 posts
Jun 17, 2009
7:54 AM
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KCFirl I agree! Quite an outspoken person. (I was a member of the IRA at one time) When it came to ideas, it was his way or the hiway and he let anyone know who opposed him with unkind words. His strain must have ended up being perfect and the reason they are so populous LMAO!
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"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the
illusion of knowledge."
Bayani
EZ Rollers (www.wacadoo.com)
B-Square Lofts
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Alohazona
647 posts
Jun 17, 2009
9:38 AM
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0221,
It's food for thought at best.The way you make your birds good are specifically your own.That is the journey.Observation is the best thing that I pulled from the above writings by Hans.
Theres a guy out here that culls at the drop of a hat,and is very proud of that fact.He never scores more than 5 or 10 points,and I haven't seen a quality bird in over 3 years there, and all the time running his mouth.A novice has his birds now ,and they are doing pretty good with them....Aloha,Todd
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0221
322 posts
Jun 17, 2009
10:39 AM
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I think when forming a family of rollers its better to be looking for birds without faults than to collect birds that roll down or that are not stable enough to land without makeing mistakes. My thought when I read on this site is that there are alot of novice flyers that come here for good advice. I never met Rottenbacher, Maybe He was to stern, but giving the green light to birds that roll down and bump sure is'nt good advice. Monty said the same thing Han's said, He seemed to do okay. Todd, Your right(The way you make your birds good are speciffically your own). Have a good day.
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Alohazona
648 posts
Jun 17, 2009
4:19 PM
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0221,
I think we are on the same page for the most part.
My experience in the past has been listening to much from some well intended experts.Stability was constantly being clammered by them.Well those years,I never bred so many stiffs as during that time.7/8 of that progency overflew,which was a blessing in disguise.
Don Simpson was in my backyard and saw a standout in my kit,he turned to me and said "stock that bird"after only observing the bird in the air.
My point is when the roll is there and apparent,breed towards it.I personally,only like donut rollers,so that's what I breed for.I do not get roll downs as a norm,but did get one this year[I still have her around].Its very simple, we want rollers,not stiffs or occasional rollers.Let the birds perform.Over selection can run you down the wrong road just the same.When you get a roller with the complete package,they will more likely than not, breed you more,that's been my experience.
I can thank Don for the simplest advice I ever received"stock that bird",and the most powerful.He could have always said, the less agreeable endless list of FAULTS.Breed for the roll,temper your breeding[if you want to] if faults appear,and they will.
If you are breeding donut rollers,that spin with velocity and smoothness,you are breeding good birds....Aloha,Todd
p.s.Monty is a good example,but he has always been the master of his bloodline,not many have had any prolonged success with his family,if any.
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Scott
2238 posts
Jun 17, 2009
5:04 PM
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Stiffs and stability has nothing to do with each other, I will allways breed for stable birds loaded with roll, anything else is a cull,period,although I am a little more lenient on birds coming into the roll and I believe that accidents can happen even with good birds, as long as that is all it is.
Many just go after instability for roll as they don't understand these birds, Todd as for Don, he told me here in my backyard that his good ones fall apart in the second year, thanks, but no thanks.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jun 17, 2009 5:07 PM
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katyroller
426 posts
Jun 17, 2009
7:57 PM
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Todd,
I'm with you braddah, don't change a thing. Does anyone still fly anything off of Hans' family? For someone that had all the answers, you don't hear that much about him. Tracey
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Scott
2239 posts
Jun 17, 2009
8:42 PM
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Actually Tracey his blood does run at least in some part in many families, he had a solid reputation.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3359 posts
Jun 17, 2009
9:06 PM
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Now you know why people don't write articles...or are afraid to stick their neck out. Someone is always waiting to lop it off! LOL
This is an article filled with brevity, some of the smarter types should understand that if you sat and spoke with him, he probably had good reasons for his view.
There are nuggets of gold everywhere, you just have to step back and learn to recognize the gold and the fools gold. I thought it was a good article...his premise is sound. Is it important to agree with each point he makes to find value in the article, no, not at all.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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CVRC
496 posts
Jun 17, 2009
9:30 PM
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take wat u like and leave the rest.....JMO
-------------------------------------
Cristian Castro
C-M-E Loft
www.ckcrollerz4e.synthasite.com
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Alohazona
649 posts
Jun 17, 2009
11:20 PM
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Scott,
I see your point,but somewhere they needed to get loaded with that roll.That certainly doesn't mean that you breed from inferior birds.My main breeders were either an early developer that rolled outstanding and were flown out for 3 years to late developers that came on strong after the 2nd moult and flown out another year.If this works ,and I'm banking it will,I'll hang on to that method, early to late.
This might not be the method for everyone,but somewhere along the line,one needs to choose and go for it.
Scott,maybe the area were we differ is I see the value in early development in regards to the breeding pen.But I feel I've tempered it,with the proper pairings.....Aloha,Todd
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DeepSpinLofts
1400 posts
Jun 18, 2009
12:23 AM
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I was speaking to a fellow fancier in Southern California a few years ago about how much time is actually required for proper loft maintenance. That would be the feeding, breeding, kit training, flying, cleaning ...etc of our rollers. We both agreed that at least twice a day was necessary. Once in the morning and then later on towards the evening before sunset.
I'm sure Mr. Roettenbacher spent a fair amount of time with his family of birds, thereby he could energetically improve them to be the best possible performers in the air.
Hans Roettenbacher makes some very interesting points that I value which is "STABILITY". Birds that roll between 15ft-40ft with incredible velocity (and frequency), tremendous stability and magnificent style is the ideal performer in my opinion. The problem is getting 20 birds to fly together and do exactly what you want from them in the air.
My feelings is that in order for us to move progressively forward with our family of birds aerial performance, there must be positive influences encouraged by progressive scholosticism (intellectual reasoning) which can educate us on how to enrich (improve) the quality of each generation of Birmingham Rollers.
That's my honest opinion!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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katyroller
427 posts
Jun 18, 2009
4:21 AM
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I'm not completely disagreeing with what Hans has to say and will admit that I do agree with alot of what he is saying. What I have a problem with are the following statements:
(2 all rolldowns must go, even youngsters after thier first thump--no matter how accidental it appeared to be.
(3 Those that roll blood in thier eye's must go. (its a physiological weakness-nothing meritoriuos, as some may proclaim)
(4 Then you go after those that roll while the kit is landing and either thump the roof or just miss the edge and recover before they hit the ground and those that hit the ground, even lightly, during kit landings.
Hans must have had awesome youngsters or very few at the end of the year if he really practiced what he preached. Also compared to todays birds, is there a possibility that his birds would be considered infrequent or stiffs?
Tracey
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0221
323 posts
Jun 18, 2009
4:43 AM
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Katyroller, Hans wrote what He wrote. Why would'nt He practice the same? Do you think He was giving this advice to steer people in the wrong direction? It must have worked for Him, Ive heard that His birds were good by people that fly them (ugly) but good. He's shared with us His plan that You've come out against. Share with us Yours. I'm willing to listen. Yours in the hobby, Al.
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katyroller
428 posts
Jun 18, 2009
5:17 AM
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0221, Sir, go back and read my last post.
1)Why would'nt He practice the same? Do you think He was giving this advice to steer people in the wrong direction? A)There alot of folks that have all the answers but for whatever reason can't practice what they preach. A) No, I don't think he was trying to steer anyone wrong. As I stated in my last post, I do agree with alot of what he said.
2)Ive heard that His birds were good by people that fly them (ugly) but good. A) I don't think I know anyone flying his family and I haven't heard much about them either.
3)He's shared with us His plan that You've come out against. A)Re-read my last post.
4)Share with us Yours. A)I don't have any issue with a young bird that bounces on release or landing if it does it ONCE. I also don't have an issue with a bird that rolls blood in the eye, ONCE. I believe blood in the eye is sometimes the result of accidents that the fancier doesn't see. How many fanciers study every kit bird before they release the kit? How do they know it didn't happen in the kit box? I believe there are down sides to culling too hard at too young an age.
Will I ever be a legend in the Roller world, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT!
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2009 5:18 AM
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0221
324 posts
Jun 18, 2009
5:45 AM
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Temper,Temper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Who said the birds that Hans was talking about were young birds. Thank You for sharing what Your willing to accept in Your pigeons. Why don't You think You can become a legend in the hobby?
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2009 5:51 AM
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Windjammer Loft
790 posts
Jun 18, 2009
6:01 AM
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Iam not disagreeing with Hans. Their are alot of people out in the world that just see "black" or "white" with
"no" inbetween. I myself,fall into that catagory. I kinda like it that way. Example: A women almost got pregnant.. You either "are" or your "not" pregnant. But,some will still argue the point. Also,this just proves that what works for 1 flyer doesn't nessarily work for another flyer... Souly my point of view.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2009 8:35 AM
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katyroller
430 posts
Jun 18, 2009
6:35 AM
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0221,
Sorry, if I sound pissed, I'm not. I came to the conclusion that they were young birds because if he culled his young birds the way he talks about, he wouldn't have any troubled old birds!
*(2 all rolldowns must go, even youngsters after thier first thump--no matter how accidental it appeared to be.*
* Why don't You think You can become a legend in the hobby?* A) I'm sure I could if that was my focus but it isn't.
Tracey
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0221
325 posts
Jun 18, 2009
6:39 AM
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Katyroller, Well it gave us something to do at this early hour. But now its time to go fly pigeons. Have a great day,Al......
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katyroller
432 posts
Jun 18, 2009
6:43 AM
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0221, Enjoy buddy!
Tracey
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gotspin7
2438 posts
Jun 18, 2009
8:08 PM
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Whoa! Good read! Thanks for sharing..
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Sal Ortiz
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macsrollers
104 posts
Jun 18, 2009
9:49 PM
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Hans article is all good advice. That's all. It's called advice because you have a choice to use it or not. Great post by Tony about why some people are hesitant to write articles because of the critics. It's really quite simple, like watching TV, if you don't like what you're watching just change the channel. Two of the most successful fliers ever, Don Ouellette and Monty Neibel cull ruthlessly and that is a big part of their success. I have played around and babied birds that have such faults as Hans describes. They may act better for awhile but in the long run those faults show up again and why would you want that in your breeding program. Hans advice is hardcore and I think 7 to 8 years ago I would be less in agreement. But as I get older my time becomes more valuable and as I invest more time into the birds I have become more and more ruthless on culling. I, like Scott mentioned he is, am a little more lenient with a young bird that has an accident. But Hans may have been older or much further along in his program to feel he needs to grant such leniency. So take Hans advice or not, but there is nothing wrong with his recommendations-just don't use them if they don't work for you. I think those that know roller history know that Hans deserves to have his opinion respected, regardless to whether we agree with it or not.
Hope you all have a fun fly in the morning with no bumpers, BOP's, or rolldowns!
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DeepSpinLofts
1401 posts
Jun 19, 2009
5:12 AM
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Re: "Hope you all have a fun fly in the morning with no bumpers, BOP's, or rolldowns!
Macsrollers wasssuuupp..... are you going to the NBRC Convention in Sacramento, Calif. tomorrow?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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macsrollers
106 posts
Jun 19, 2009
10:31 PM
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Hi Marcus. Can't make it to the convention. World Series of Poker going on for the casino company I work for so not a good time to leave town. Was hoping for a Fall convention but the world's events certainly can't revolve around my schedule! Hope you get to go and have a great time. I enjoy your posts- especially this article by Hans. Thanks, Don M.
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Hector Coya
504 posts
Jun 20, 2009
8:55 AM
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I like #4,boy it seems that the stuff everybody is breeding now seems to have that fault,i see it in many of the top flyers here in So,Cal
To me its a weak bird,a bird with no control,i see them hit coming out and hit leaving the kit box.
And these birds are competeing and winni8ng big flys.
Im not saying i dont get any,or i havent stocked any,im just saying its a fault,and im guilty of haveing them too.I just dont like it.
Hector Coya-SGVS
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The more i know mankind,the more i love my Dog,
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Roll Down
72 posts
Jun 20, 2009
1:00 PM
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macsrollers and Tony:
I don't usually post on here unless it can possibly help someone or answer a question etc., but I must say that I agree with you both 100%.
Sometimes we have to be a little forgiving in our regimen and remember that they aren't machines but flesh and blood and can have an off day or make a mistake. I cull hard myself but only when all else has failed.
Hans's advice was good and maybe a little harsh but well taken.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
3363 posts
Jun 20, 2009
8:57 PM
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Roll Down, for me, I look for tendency's and patterns (by the 3rd time, you have a tendency or pattern). When they are the negative side of the equation, I cull. When they are on the positive side, I breed.
I think if you have been in this for awhile, you know when you are looking at a bird that doesn't have what it takes. The decision lays in how long you gonna believe the "lie" and work with the bird? (BTW, "you" is rhetorical)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Jun 20, 2009 8:58 PM
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ezeedad
995 posts
Jun 20, 2009
9:03 PM
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Hector,
I am the same as you about that #4... I will not breed out of anything that has shown instability. I may keep them around as flyers, but I will never breed them.
But I have had some good results breeding seldom performers that were hard spinners and looked great on the ground.
Paul Gomez
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RodSD
268 posts
Jun 20, 2009
11:34 PM
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I like the article. It seems to be on a fast track of getting your birds and not working a lot more waiting for a bird to become good.
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bigwilly
985 posts
Jun 21, 2009
12:13 AM
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If I would of gotten rid of my first youngster that "hit" this year, I would have got rid of a good bird. The way that we want our birds for comp, there are going to be some "ACCIDENTS". These birds are some serious ATHLETES
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BIG WILLY
TOPP FLIGHT/NCRC
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katyroller
433 posts
Jun 21, 2009
9:20 AM
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I believe that if we are trying to breed our birds for extreme performance, we have to allow for some mistakes. As stated earlier I don't believe that every bird that has bounced needs to be culled. I have bred birds that bounced once or twice and never did it again(not roll downs). I have turned around and bred from those same birds and got youngsters that never bounced. I have had young birds that would let loose a roll or rolls while trying to land but never bounced. I didn't like it but with time they quit doing it. I can't recall ever breeding off a bird that rolled while landing so I don't know what the young would have done.
My only problem with Hans' statement is the blanket statement that anything that bounces must be culled. I believe a fancier can cause young birds to bounce with a poor feeding and flying program. If he followed Hans' advise to the letter he could be culling good birds and not correcting the real problem, himself!
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DeepSpinLofts
1447 posts
Jul 01, 2009
9:14 AM
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Katyroller you make some suggestive points that I find quite understandable for a roller fancier to undertake.
You stated:
====> "we are trying to breed our birds for extreme performance"
Hmm..... interesting.
To me extreme performance can be characterized best as the ideal Birmingham Roller pigeon we all are seeking.
My ideal Birmingham Roller pigeon must be capable of.... and rolling in the air approx. 9yds or more in depth (which is the height of the average telephone pole we see) with a tremendous amount of velocity on the spin.
A good spinner in my opinion is one that is rolling on average at least once per minute.... however I prefer style over frequency in these instances. When I say style, I'm referring basically to the depth, form, speed (velocity) and tightness on the roll when a bird turns over rapidly in acrobatic flight. When you have incorporated these specific traits into your family of rolling pigeons then the next step is to genetically infuse frequency into the gene pool in order to increase breaks in your next generation of kit birds.
Over the years, I've discovered that attaining an incredibly high velocity on the spin is extremely tough and only through selective breeding practices & proper loft management (feeding, breeding, training and flying) can this aerial feat actually be achieved. Our backyards are full of good performers that can and will roll frequently in the kit.
.....but
The key in general here is whether or not our birds can spin with proper rolling style (high velocity) and with the athletic stamina required to fly in a competition against other kits of well trained rolling pigeons.
MASTER PLAN: The goal is to get 11-to-20 rollers with high velocity on the spin to perform together as a harmonius unit (team or kit) while in the air.
My definition of a high velocity spinner isn't necessarily judged by the speed a bird descends to mother earth from the kit, but it's the dynamic magnitude of the birds spherical gyrations (the incredible speed a rolling pigeon whirls around in circular motions in the air) while tucked neatly in proper rolling form like a tennis ball.
...also
Keep in mind that the faster a bird descends (rolls towards earth) in proper rolling form without crashing... the better.... and of course the greater the velocity & tightness on the spin is even greater!
NOTE: For breeding purposes I would much rather prefer a good rolling pigeon that spins say in the 15ft-30ft range with lightning fast velocity, than say a roller that drops down 40ft or more in a clean smooth rolling pattern.... but is lacking the momentous velocity (lightning fast speed) comparable to a champion spinner.
====> The true champion Birmingham Roller pigeon is a very, very, very rare commodity.
....so
If you have the unebelievable opportunity to possess a "Champion Performer" in your loft, then for heavens sake... 'HOLD on to it"!
Why?
Because ounce for ounce a champion aerial performer is truly worth it's weight in GOLD!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
1540 posts
Aug 03, 2009
3:26 PM
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*Bump
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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